i imagine something radically different.
as for the term African American being adopted, that was the proud claim of jesse jackson. we all understand its affirmative call, and its success in replaced Afro-American which had been adopted previous to that, and which term itself replaced Negro.
ken
On 11/16/15 8:07 AM, Salimonu Kadiri wrote:
Kenneth, we the Black race are the hens laying the eggs and you the Caucasians are egg eaters. When we the egg layers now talk about how painful it is for us to lay eggs, you the egg eaters then wonder from where we get the idea that it pains to lay eggs!! Hens do not need to imagine that it pains to lay eggs, it is physiologically experienced.--
I have taken note of your lofty idea about civil rights which to me is nothing but a slogan. Slogan, as Shimon Peres once averred, is like parfym, it smells good but tastes bad. Black students (or African American students) as you mentioned could demonstrate as much as they want, provided the Caucasian power holders are assured that the demonstrators are only demanding the right to turn the left cheek when slapped on the right one. As long as it is the Caucasians who are doing the slapping they will never be hostile to African American demonstrators wishing to turn the left cheek when slapped on the right one. That is the core of the philosophy of civil rights: love your enemies and pray for your persecutors. But if your Black students demonstrators should dare say that if you slap me, I will chop off your hand so that you will for ever not be able to slap anyone of us, I am sure the national guard will descend on them with all their arsenal of life extinguishers.
Referring to me you wrote, "You seem to be working on a cinematic overdrive, not the daily reality of life in the U.S." Kenneth, the daily reality of life in the U.S. is that Obama and people who look like him racially (former Negroes) are identified as African Americans while Clinton and other Caucasians who look like him are identified as Americans. If I am working on a cinematic overdrive, according to your bombastic English, you must answer the question I asked you in my previous post. That is, if the interpretation of the U.S. Constitution by Chief Justice Taney of the Supreme Court, in 1857, that the expression, 'People of the United States,' did not include the Black people is no longer the daily reality of life in the U.S., according to you, why is Obama and people who look like him racially in the U.S. classified as African American but Clinton and those who look like him, racially, are classified as Americans and not European Americans? This is a straight question that needs no zigzag answer.
S.Kadiri
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Today's Quote
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
From: harrow@msu.edu
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 18:01:37 -0500
salimonu,
where do you get the idea that afr am people are regularly gunned down by euro-amer police?
there is a lot of work that needs to be done here; a lot of racist issues we need to face.
however, this is out of touch with reality, and i can't understand where you get this from. you take instances where police, sometimes black, often white, stop and harass, beat, or kill black drivers, black young men usually. somehow that has morphed in your imagination into a world that doesn't exist.
do you live here, in the u.s.? what is this based on?
when a trevor martin happens, when a ferguson happens, this becomes an issue of national concern and anguish, protests, demonstrations. if it were the case that afr ams were "constantly gunned down," these instances would cease to be the shocking events they are. they would be part of daily life, and wouldn't be noted as exceptional. you seem to be working on a cinematic overdrive, not the daily reality of life in the u.s.
black people face great issues all the time; it doesn't help anything to turn this into a cinematic spectacle that has nothing to do with daily struggles that are faced by real people in real circumstances.
and further, what possible link is there between the abuse of blacks by the police, and holding peaceful demonstrations, which we have here all the time. this weekend black students on my campus held a march and rally, as has been happening all week around the states. this is a GREAT thing, and so far i haven't read about the national guard shooting them.
ken
On 11/15/15 5:28 PM, Salimonu Kadiri wrote:
If the Supreme court's interpretation of the US constitution in 1857 which excluded the Blacks from the expression *people of United States* is no longer valid, why is Obama African American but Clinton, Bush, Trump and others are Americans and not European Americans?--
I love your idea of civil rights to demonstrate or protest in the society without police permit but I have not seen that practised in the US where 'African Americans' are constantly gunned down by European American policemen at pleasure and when aggrieved people resort to spontaneous demonstrations against uniformed murderers, national guards are sent out to pump bullets into the skulls of African Americans. I am yet to observe such a situation in present day Nigeria against Biafra.
S.Kadiri
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Today's Quote
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
From: harrow@msu.edu
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 14:18:45 -0500
hi salimonu
what a set of distractions in your reply. blacks in the u.s. are the same as 1857? this is nice rhetoric, but in fact ridiculous; but more to the point, it is not on my point at all. you return to the conditions in nigeria, whether there is justification for public demonstrations. i think of it as a democratic right of all people everywhere. like being about to public denounce a govt without being punished; like publishing criticisms of the govt without fear of beingblown up. like being able to vote for your rulers.
a simple thing: people have the right to gather and publicly demonstrate, under all govts, not just democratic or dictatorial. a fundamental human right.
just sign onto that and don't tell me nonsense that blacks today are like slaves of yesterday and therefor the civil rights movements' demonstrations were meaningless. the picture you paint of the u.s. is really not close to reality. but that is not the issue.
ken
On 11/15/15 1:17 PM, 'M Buba' via USA Africa Dialogue Series wrote:
Dear all (Biafrans and Federalists),At the risk of sounding non-committal, middlish and mediocre, I'll say that 'Biafra' is too emotive a campaign slogan at this period in our history. Couldn't we all focus on the 'vultures' pecking at our flesh and soul at the centre?
There's no doubt that all ethnic nationalities are feeling crushed by their inability to change the game plan of our greedy politicians and selfish government officials. We all need redress, but inciting any group within the nation to fight their corner (in all corners!) seems to belittle other groups' anger and frustration at the lack of progress in their lives and in their immediate society.
Here, where I live, there's a local (primary) election taking place, and local people in many constituencies are totally opposed to 'favourites'. Will their voices/votes count? No. Do they feel the injustice? Absolutely. Is there anything they can do to 'change' the situation? Not at this moment.
The point is to take the long view and regroup for the inevitable (proper) change to come, when Igbos and the 400 + ethnic groups in Nigeria gain the right insight about the abject poverty of so many Nigerians! I mean, my sister's 'customers' come to her with five naira (N5!!) for a scoop of gravy powder! Sometimes, the little boy is sent to collect it on credit! (We're in the same boat, I say.)
My aged mother (with very little schooling) thinks our big men and women have lost their sense of shame, which is why they can steal and steal and steal without end. It is in this context that I think we should all fight the people's corner, whatever their ethnicity, nationality or creed.
Yet, as my brother, Michael, will say, 'what do I know?' I'm only a middlish, mediocre sort of chap.
Malami
Prof Malami BubaDepartment of English Language & Linguistics
Sokoto State UniversityPMB 2134, Birnin-Kebbi Rd,Sokoto, NIGERIA--Kenneth, I responded to your message but it would appear the moderator chose not to publish it.--
As you know, Martin Luther King's civil rights movement was recognised by the white power, because of the opposition of Omowale (the name given to him when he visited Nigeria) Malcolm X who elevated the struggle of the Blacks in the USA to Fundamental Human Rights. With the acceptance of civil rights as the need of the Blacks in the USA, their socio-economic relations to the Whites remain the same today as it was pronounced in 1857 by Chief Justice Taney of the Supreme Court, who in Dred Scott Case handed down the decision that, "A Negro has no rights which a white man need respect." The Court declared that in the meaning of the words "people of United States," in the Constitution, Negroes were not included in the people of the United States.
The government of the USA is not considered dictatorial or repressive yet it is the norm that the Caucasian policeman can wilfully gun down any Black person in the street and subsequent spontaneous protests by the Blacks are suffocated not by ordinary police but national guards, resulting often with more deaths of the Black protesters. This phenomenon is common in the whole of US and regardless of South or North.
The Sharpeville demonstration was more or less suicidal on the part of the demonstrators and it did not contribute anything to the eventual emergence of 'Black man White mask' regime in South Africa. We should not forget that Mandela and other ANC members were, since 1948, on the list of USA's terrorists because of their opposition against South Africa's apartheid regime. Even though Mandela received Nobel Peace Price in 1993, USA did not remove his name and other ANC members from the list of terrorists until 2nd June 2008.
I doubt if your comparison of Biafran demonstrators with the oppressed Blacks in the US and South Africa is identical. The government of Buhari is neither dictatorial nor repressive against the Biafran Igbo in Nigeria. The socio-economic conditions of all Nigerians are the same and if the Biafran Igbo think that their socio-economic conditions would be better by becoming a sovereign state, they should not agitate through mob demonstrations, and especially, outside the geographical location of Igbo Biafra.
S. Kadiri
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Today's Quote
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
From: harrow@msu.edu
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 23:22:01 -0500
i sent a simple message salimonu, which you largely ignored. that's fair enough. but i will repeat one small part: our civil rights movement in the united states was build around civil disobedience. so, in fact, was gandhi's movement in india. no american, except for hard core racists, would agree that martin luther king should not have led the civil rights marches, even in the face of the brutal police forces of southern racist authorities.
i would add the demonstrations in s africa, including sharpeville as well.
you really need to rethink what you are saying if you think constituted authority is always right and immune to popular protests.
ken
On 11/14/15 1:26 PM, Salimonu Kadiri wrote:
Thank you Ayo Obe. Your reference to courts' pronouncement declaring the Public Order Act requiring one to obtain police permission to demonstrate as being 'anti-constitutional' appears to me to be very vague. I need to know case references, name of the courts and presiding judges and the dates of their pronouncements in order to ascertain the credibility of your reference. Since I am not a lawyer, I wish to know if the word 'anti-constitutional' carries the same weight, legally, as unconstitutional. If the Public Order Act has been declared unconstitutional by the courts, has it been abrogated? If yes, when?--
You averred that 'it is in dictatorships that one ordinarily needs police permission to demonstrate.' I stand to be corrected by you if I say that the most democratic nations in the world are in Western Europe. Premised on that assertion, I will mention, for examples some democratic countries such as Britain, France, Germany, Belgium, Sweden, Denmark and Netherlands where citizens, especially in groups, are obliged to obtain police permission for public protests or demonstrations. Even where there are no two opposing demonstrants on the same subject, it is necessary that demonstrations should be carried out in such a manner that it would not disrupt the normal functions of the society as it were in Port Harcourt where marketers were prevented from earning their daily bread and ambulances on emergency call were hindered from getting to the patients in need of urgent transportation to hospitals by obstructive demonstrators. "Those demanding the release of Kanu is no reason for Mr. Kadiri's astonishing proposition which amounts to a reversal of the basic principle regarding the right to demonstrate: once one needs permission to exercise it, it is no longer a right," writes Ayo Obe. Exaggerated liberal democrats can be very confusing a times with their definition of unlimited freedom whereby they claim that freedom of choice to buy and own a car automatically translates to driving it without permit to drive, which is to obtain a driving license. There is no absolute freedom and all freedoms are conditional. I rest my case.
S.Kadiri
From: ayo.m.o.obe@gmail.com
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Today's Quote
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 15:04:23 +0100
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
With due respect to Salimonu Kadiri, the courts have already pronounced the provisions of the Public Order Act requiring one to obtain police permission to demonstrate to be anti-constitutional having regard to the constitutional guarantee of the right to freedom of assembly and freedom of expression. It is in dictatorships that one ordinarily needs police permission to demonstrate.
That the Constitution recognises that the people's rights can be subject to the need to maintain public safety and security can NOT be translated into a default position whereby it is the citizen who always has to seek permission. Rather, where necessary, the police have to be proactive and ban.
Those organising demonstrations may inform the police for the purpose of march/rally security, identification of best routes etc., but again, that must not be confused with seeking permission. If the police choose not to offer security, that does not prevent the march or rally from going ahead.
Of course, with reference to CAO's question, apartheid South Africa was not a democracy for the majority of its citizens, so the analogy with today's Nigeria is not quite apposite. Today's Nigeria may not be delivering on the promise of democracy, but it is far from being a repressive dictatorship. However, that one does not like the tone adopted by the pro-Biafra movement, or see how the realisation of Biafra will solve the real life problems of those demanding the release of Kanu is no reason for Mr Kadiri's astonishing proposition which amounts to a reversal of the basic principle regarding the right to demonstrate: once one needs permission to exercise it, it is no longer a right.
As ever, we find that there is a conflation of some observers' basic sympathy - often from a fairly safe distance - with the demand for the creation of Biafra with the defence of the right to make that demand. Some observers happily acquiesced in the law banning gay marriage or even any campaign that it should be legal because they hated the idea of gay marriage, and were unable to separate it from the right to campaign. Again, some close their eyes or ears to hate speech and incitement in one case, but justify conviction and execution for murder in another.
We all have our instances of subjectivity. But generally, we might make better progress if we find better responses to issues than repression and bans.
AyoI invite you to follow me on Twitter @naijamasalimonu
it pains me to reads this. repressive states ban public protests, and people take to the street at risk to their lives. tiananmen sq, tahir square. if you hate the people and love the state so much you are condoning the ugly violence of the american south during the entire civil rights movement which was based on speaking truth to a repressive, racist state.
the police can function in the service of a repressive state. protests can be the only viable means to oppose them
ken
On 11/13/15 8:37 AM, Salimonu Kadiri wrote:
Only miscreants and street urchins would test the resolve of the state through public demonstration without obtaining police permit. The very act of demonstrating without police permission in a democracy is criminal.--
S.Kadiri
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 22:06:48 -0800
Subject: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Today's Quote
From: chidi.opara@gmail.com
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
Using state powers to stop peaceful protests in a democracy is corruption.
CAO.
--
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