Wednesday, May 10, 2017

Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - God and Research Autonomy

I agree entirely with what Gloria says here about the bond between religion and colonial powers. But they were essentially the same thing, just working on different social strata. The mistake, if you’ll permit me to say it, is to imagine that religion is somehow operating with a different notion of the world, of worlding in fact, from other social structures. it is the same; an instrument of the same views of the world and its power.

 

Secondly, with all respect, the biblical accounts are not only not “history” as we understand the term, they have virtually nothing to do with history. Whatever historical events might have once been represented in them were completely transformed by the eyes that saw, the mouth that repeated, the brain that conceived of their meaning. Transformed, as in homer re-creating the war or wars or concepts of wars between greeks and Trojans into an epic.

It isn’t a question of fiction vs fact: it is a question of how one sees the world.

Is that really clear? To imagine the moses of the jewish bible can be transparently understood and re-placed into an historical frame that is constructed with thebricks of knowledge of contemporary understand is to completely misunderstand the text and the transformations it had undergone to be created, much less to be translated into contemporary terms.

The biblical moses exists, as in having being, in a text whose transformations were entirely framed and created by people who lived with another worldview, another language to convey it, another set of understandings, that are so far from ours as to be essentially lost.

You are re-creating them with today’s words, understandings, disciplines, as in history or religion, that never existed, even in the time of herodatus.

I am not writing this to defend monotheism. As I said before, these terms,  monotheism and polytheism, are screens that function ideologically, not to reflect a genuine conceptual difference, but entirely to justify the elevation of one culture or society over another.

In that regard, gloria’s notion that they were used instrumentally as part of the conquest, the conquistadors’ conquest and destruction of the people they ruled, seems spot on to me. But it had nothing to do with monotheism or god. It had to do with “god,” with “Christ,” with their ideology of truth and superiority, not the number of divine beings, which was, in the end, a mere arbitrary effect of differentiation from others.

How many names for god exist in islam? 99?

In Judaism? Probably a good 6 or more (el, Elohim, Adonai, etc);

In Christianity (the father, the son, the holy ghost—not to mention the mother of god, etc)

The mono in monotheism is not the divine being: it is the state that seeks to justify its rule in the name of the father

ken

 

Kenneth Harrow

Dept of English and Film Studies

Michigan State University

619 Red Cedar Rd

East Lansing, MI 48824

517-803-8839

harrow@msu.edu

http://www.english.msu.edu/people/faculty/kenneth-harrow/

 

From: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of "Emeagwali, Gloria (History)" <emeagwali@ccsu.edu>
Reply-To: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Date: Wednesday 10 May 2017 at 10:25
To: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - God and Research Autonomy

 

 

"Hence monotheism is the first attempt at political dictatorship in the annals of human political history;  it failed in its first incarnation only to be reimposed by the fleeing biblical Moses as a method to keep his itenerant band together (the books of Samuel and Kings contain the biased account of how the Israelites suppressed polytheism in favour of the new monotheistic thought on one hand and the monarchs attempt to use the new doctrine to suppress his own priesthood); it was adopted by the early Christians after the state sponsored killing of their mentor; it was adopted by Emperor Contantine who tried as he did could not suppress it in favour of the Roman pantheon and hence used it to construct a world wide empire till this day; it was adopted and domesticated by  Arabia and Islam to form a parallel empire till this day."

 

A quotable quote and deep analysis of the historical reality! Thank you. Emperor Ezana must have done the same thing in terms of the Aksumite empire and so, too, a successor, Emperor Lalibela who used the religion to cement the Zagwe dynastic house,  and constructed some of the most impressive, sculptured churches in the world,  in the process. He wanted to create a new imperial center, a new Jerusalem, so to speak,  to shift the power center to the south. He even

inserted himself in the theological writings.

 

The European colonizers constructed their racialized  and racist empires, with the direct and indirect help of the religious establishment, in many cases, and it is no surprise that after the  anti-colonial revolts and the demise of their colonies, the religious affiliations and colonial, missionary, evangelist agenda  remain strong and in tact,  in an  unashamedly, racialized format in some cases.

 

The King is dead. Long live the King.

 

 

Professor Gloria Emeagwali

 

 


From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Olayinka Agbetuyi <yagbetuyi@hotmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 8:57 AM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - God and Research Autonomy

 

 

Ken.

 

I agree with a lot of what you say.  But my emphasis is on STRUCTRURALLY.  All the saints in Christianity are in the pecking order to only ONE God.  They want to profit by their association with him rather than set out to form a different religion worshipping another God or different autonomous Gods; a saint is not a God but a superior minister who embodies aspects of their God.

 

The furious debates about the nature of my friend the Nazarine (Emmanu-El who came down to us under the invented name of Jesus) the antinomian controversy I believe its called by the early fathers of the Church is about reconciling the polytheistic roots of Christianity to the New Dawn of the monotheistic faith.

 

That resolution took the form of a rehash of the Egyptian polytheistic trinity of Osiris, Isis and baby Horus; that is the iconographic roots of Mary cradling baby Jesus (we musnt forget that baby Jesus and his parents escaped to Egypt the super- power of the day to escape persecution by Herod).

 

It is the shameful refusal to acknowledge the politically superior quality of thought of polytheism that results in monotheists stealing the thunder of their alter ego and renaming them as aspects of monotheism.

 

Yes, the first recorded experiment in monotheism was to circumvent all the bother of consulting the religious priesthood (the Congress of those days) and allow the monarch (the executive) to do as he wishes.  

 

Hence monotheism is the first attempt at political dictatorship in the annals of human political history;  it failed in its first incarnation only to be reimposed by the fleeing biblical Moses as a method to keep his itenerant band together (the books of Samuel and Kings contain the biased account of how the Israelites suppressed polytheism in favour of the new monotheistic thought on one hand and the monarchs attempt to use the new doctrine to suppress his own priesthood); it was adopted by the early Christians after the state sponsored killing of their mentor; it was adopted by Emperor Contantine who tried as he did could not suppress it in favour of the Roman pantheon and hence used it to construct a world wide empire till this day; it was adopted and domesticated by  Arabia and Islam to form a parallel empire till this day.

 

Yes, religion in many cases is cited in many cases to justify evil ; in others it is the excuse to perpetrate evil as in Jihads and specifically Boko Haram.  

 

Yet in others it is in its lurid political role to harness an empire and secure the pecking order in that empire to the metropolis where the emperor speaks for the only God and is therefore surrogate God.

 

 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

 

 

-------- Original message --------

From: Kenneth Harrow <harrow@msu.edu>

Date: 10/05/2017 03:27 (GMT+00:00)

To: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - God and Research Autonomy

 

Hi olayinka

In referring to these as foundational, that sounds like self-evident, indubitable, etc.

I am much less absolute in my thinking about these attributes. I think it is because I think of religion as something like ideology: a way people come to organize the world, the world around them—the world in heidegger’s sense, really in so many modern thinkers’ sense, as that encounter w the Real which we psychologically need to organize into some set of patterns and structures. you separate out religion from that process; for me it is simply the way humans come to comprehend the material world, and by organize it put it into an order defined by cause-and effect.

When you say religions are more about their inventors than their gods, for me all religious belief is built on structures of belief that were always already there. some of this has been carefully studied. When I read bultmann on Christianity, a long time ago, he tracked all the religious beliefs that flowed into the Mediterranean faith of two thousand years ago. It wasn’t invented, it was recreated, and there was nothing before Christianity that wasn’t itself the recreation of an earlier set of beliefs.

I don’t know how much you studied religions. I was very surprised to learn of effectively monotheistic belief coming into greeks’ understanding of religion around the 5th c b.c., and the equivalence w high gods in African faiths could also be tracked. I am very very, well completely, skeptical that one could really find a significant difference between monotheistic and polytheistic faiths. But I don’t really want to write a long track here, just to affirm my understanding that the ways these religions worked wasn’t particularly different. What was different was the social structures which led, in some cases, to belligerent conquest justified by on religious grounds, and in others to just the opposite. There are so many examples one could cite. For instance the Christianity you might see leading the inquisition in spain had nothing to do with the Christianity embraced in Senegal where concepts of pacific getting along was made necessary. Every monotheistic moment of conquest you might cite could be matched by the opposite in innumerable locals. The religion is, like nationalism, the excuse to justify conquest, not an intrinsic quality of the consequence of religious belief.

I don’t believe that the religions per se are intolerant; the societies are. Any real student of African history should be able to confirm that, and you can extend that to Europe as or anywhere else.

What makes people intolerant, that is the question. The answer is not religion, but the uses to which some societies put some religions; any other society in the same conditions is just as apt to be intolerant, regardless of the religion. Is islam tolerant? Of course. Is it intolerant? Of course. The answer to each of those questions, as for Christianity or Judaism, depends entirely on the time and place.

Ooof. Sorry for this rambling response

 

A last point. In my view all the major monotheistic religions are essentially polytheistic. Christians worship a plethora of divine, sacred beings. Muslims do the same, starting with mohammed, as well as allah, and the companions of mohammed as well. Ever drive around a marabout’s shrine? There are zillions. And Judaism? What are the prophets? What is moses? Miriam? Of course none of these are gods; but in fact, they occupy a shrine, are worshipped or venerated or loved or prayed to or elevated to sacred status, etc etc. their tombs are holy shrines; their words are taken as sacred, etc. the hypocrisy comes in imagining that these practices are any different from Africans who intheir worship also used to address a plethora of sacred beings, and almost always with a high olodumare god as well.

The only ones who needed to affirm the difference between monotheists and polytheists were the colonialists who wanted to debunk Africans. Now to see that difference being hyped on this list is ironic, to say the least.

You are right in saying religion is political, i.e., ideological. So is the claim that monotheism is intrinsically different from polytheism.

ken

 

Kenneth Harrow

Dept of English and Film Studies

Michigan State University

619 Red Cedar Rd

East Lansing, MI 48824

517-803-8839

harrow@msu.edu

http://www.english.msu.edu/people/faculty/kenneth-harrow/

 

From: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Olayinka Agbetuyi <yagbetuyi@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Date: Tuesday 9 May 2017 at 19:55
To: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - God and Research Autonomy

 

Ken:

 

 let me make a few remarks on your queries even though they are not directed at me:

 

Let us not forget foundational facts:

 

1. Religions are more about their inventors than any Gods.

 

2.  All religions are political in nature ( In the expanded use of that notion)

 

3.  The first political party known to Man is the religious party.

 

4.  Monotheism is the first philosophical concept by Man to glorify intolerance.

 

5.  Monotheism is dated and a name is attached to  the man associated with its first inglorious recorded occurence

 

6. Biblical Moses is credited with its resurgence in a millennial  saga that lasts - alas- to this day in various guises and disguises.

 

7. Monotheism is structurally more intolerant than polytheism in view of its monochronic vision (attenuated by reforms in brands like Christianity)

 

 

 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

 

 

-------- Original message --------

From: Kenneth Harrow <harrow@msu.edu>

Date: 09/05/2017 21:34 (GMT+00:00)

To: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - God and Research Autonomy

 

I wonder if this is true, Gloria. It sounds as though you are conflating religions with societies. Were they no societies that were polytheistic and dominating, etc. and the addition of gods, wasn’t that done through conquest? And what is a singular vs plural set of divine beings? When obatala and ogun were added to the list of saints in brazil by the catholics, what was that? When one people conquered another, didn’t they add their gods? The origins of Christianity, from mithras to the greeks to the jews, were completely marked by synthesis. No religions on earth were ever anything but additions and subtractions of former beliefs. So the question is, what kinds of societies were linked to those faiths? In ancient times, as polytheism passed to monotheism, say in ancient Greece, was the nature of greek society changed?

ken

 

Kenneth Harrow

Dept of English and Film Studies

Michigan State University

619 Red Cedar Rd

East Lansing, MI 48824

517-803-8839

harrow@msu.edu

http://www.english.msu.edu/people/faculty/kenneth-harrow/

 

From: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of "Emeagwali, Gloria (History)" <emeagwali@ccsu.edu>
Reply-To: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Date: Tuesday 9 May 2017 at 15:55
To: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - God and Research Autonomy

 

SO,

      I would add also that polytheistic/ polymorphic religions are generally more accommodating than the monotheistic variants.Polytheists believe that they can easily add on the deities that proved effective for a particular group or time period. Monotheists, on the other hand are extremely  jealous and zealous, and are hell - bent on "hounding out of existence" their "competitors" and rivals."

 

 

 

Professor Gloria Emeagwali

Professor of History
 

 


From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Segun Ogungbemi <seguno2013@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, May 8, 2017 10:34 PM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - God and Research Autonomy

 

They are refined minded people. You may call them secular humanists who are harmless. 

SO
On May 8, 2017, at 6:43 PM, Olayinka Agbetuyi <yagbetuyi@hotmail.com> wrote:

You are right Ken. Not all beliefs fit in the same handbag:  

 

I have never heard Ifa believers hounding Sango believers out of existence. Nor of Obatala believers being attacked by Ifa worshippers.

 

 

 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

 

 

-------- Original message --------

From: Kenneth Harrow <harrow@msu.edu>

Date: 07/05/2017 14:00 (GMT+00:00)

To: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - God and Research Autonomy

 

Dear o o,

I don’t think you can put all belief into the same handbag. You are right that even smart people are willing to profess belief in something that they can’t know about. I’ve come to the conclusion that belief in god answers a psychological need people have, linked to the father, or parent, whom they elevate into something Lacan might call the name of the father.

I really doubt the belief arises because of people’s need to know where they come from and where they are going. My own answer to those questions are dust to dust: we are the product of an evolutionary process and are material beings. A camus would argue that only in accepting this can we fully embrace life; Heidegger would say the same. Einstein decided to believe in god. So there are no guides whose advice make any sense to me in deciding or not.

 

But what’s the real issue. Because we think in cause and effect terms, we assume the universe is an effect of a cause that is cast in human terms, i.e., that a being like us decided one day to create the material universe. You really have to admit that is an incredibly naïve, dumb idea. You hear various people being cited, from moses to jesus to mohammad, as having been, or being in contact with that divine being. I would also cast that notion as incredibly naïve and dumb.

Then we can let it rest at that: we are here, we don’t know what caused us to be, we don’t know what this sense of ourselves that we hold, which some might call their soul, entails, and we hope it won’t die when we die. But others might accept the unease of not knowing, as I do, and regard the faith and certainty that others have in answers to these questions as presumptuous.

 

To come to where I want to go with this: believe whatever you want. I will keep my mouth closed about the beliefs; I will also participate in my own religious rituals with pleasure or joy. But neither I nor you have any right to insist that anyone else impose their beliefs on others, not even on their children, much less on strangers. It is the uses to which religion is put that makes this question of belief a vexed one.

I have two words to prove my point: boko haram.

Those words are the same, in translation, elsewhere: fundamentalist Christianity, ultra-orthodox Judaism; ultra-nationalist Buddhism. And so on. These are religions that are dogmatic and deadly, that are willing to kill people like me for writing emails like this, and to me they are my intellectual enemies. They bring hatred and conflict into the world, and it is impossible for me not to imagine that they are, in fact, all quite stupid.

 

Belief should be free, unfettered, and most of all innocent.

If there is need for religion that can embrace these propositions, then let that religion exist without complaint. Maybe the bahais are like that? Maybe the Unitarians are? Maybe zen Buddhists are? I don’t know. Quakers seem quite wonderful, but can be dogmatic about their own beliefs, about expelling from their own communities those who violate the spirit of the community. But at least there are models in all these religions for practices that are quite wonderful. But there are also models for crusades and jihads which ought to be abolished in all religions.

I say this as a member of a people who had been victims of the inquisition, the holocaust, and Islamic fundamentalism. But also as an amnesty worker who remembers what the Buddhists did to the non-buddhists in sri lanka, as someone remembers the victimization of muslims in the riots in india by hindus; and so on.

Lastly, people who embrace these dogmatic beliefs and are willing to kill in their name can also do so in the name of their superiority as a people (like the Nazis), or their superiority as a nation (America first, france first, Deutschland uber alles). Religion is pretty much the same for far too many people.

In all this, your questions, where do we come from and where are we going, get lost sight of.

ken

 

Kenneth Harrow

Dept of English and Film Studies

Michigan State University

619 Red Cedar Rd

East Lansing, MI 48824

517-803-8839

harrow@msu.edu

http://www.english.msu.edu/people/faculty/kenneth-harrow/

 

From: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Reply-To: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Date: Saturday 6 May 2017 at 22:53
To: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - God and Research Autonomy

 

No knowledge, even scientific knowledge, is entirely impersonal, and to hold this position suggests neither being anti-science nor being anti-God or pro-God. Many of the greatest scientists or sharpest minds have in some way or other been believers in God; similarly, many of the best scientists or minds have rejected any belief in God. In other words, belief or non-belief in God is not a measure of intelligence or stupidity. As long as humans are unable to answer conclusively or decisively two simple questions -- where are we coming from? where are we going? -- it would be dogmatic to be dismissive of belief or non-belief in God. 

 

PS: one irony -- those who are dismissive of religion tend to make the mistake of turning science into scientism which is itself a religion.

 


Sent from my iPhone


On May 6, 2017, at 5:07 PM, 'Adeshina Afolayan' via USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> wrote:

 

A Dutch university prohibits a PhD student from thanking God in his acknowledgments | Practical Ethics

A Dutch university (Wageningen University) prohibited a PhD student from thanking God in his thesis acknowledgme...

 

 

 

Adeshina Afolayan, PhD
Department of Philosophy
University of Ibadan


+23480-3928-8429

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