Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Obi of Onitsha, Ooni Ogunwusi and HRH Sanusi as Growing National Brands

Ken:
Two small questions, while bearing in mind that what is predictable about
the future is unpredictability:

A) If there is no shared narrative, how do you create a consistent way of
thinking about any future, not to talk of the present? Why Obi received
all the comments he did was that he was framing things in absolutes.
Society disappoints all such framing.Were I to know for a fact, as Obi
suggested, that if we were to abolish monarchies, Nigeria would develop, I
would even suggest violence as a way of attaining this.
B) Your formulation is that nations have to follow some kind of
developments outside of their control. Let us accept teleology, for the
sake of it, but this disempowers the weak, as it did in the 16th century,
the 19th, the 20thŠand this great future.
TF


Toyin Falola
Department of History
The University of Texas at Austin
104 Inner Campus Drive
Austin, TX 78712-0220
USA
512 475 7224
512 475 7222 (fax)
http://sites.utexas.edu/yoruba-studies-review/
http://www.toyinfalola.com
http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa
http://groups.google.com/group/yorubaaffairs
http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue





On 5/13/17, 3:41 PM, "usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com on behalf of
Kenneth Harrow" <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com on behalf of
harrow@msu.edu> wrote:

>Since we are forseeing the future for africa, I am guessing a radically
>different vision. I don¹t believe that the ideal of a pan-african coming
>together will happen. I actually think that the nation state will
>ultimately be supplanted by larger formulations, like those dictated by
>globalization or neoliberalism. The older school of capitalism that grew
>out of mercantilist national interest will die within the lifetime of my
>grandchildren, as it is dying now. What will emerge will be regions tied
>by economic interests. It is impossible to imagine the desert or even
>geography being the determinant factor. Rather the forces of resources
>exploitation will rise up. I doubt that oil or coal will survive. I doubt
>that ownership of territory, of water rights, of sun rights, will
>determine the major questions. I do imagine that those who develop the
>strongest educational systems and keep them up will become the new
>switzerlands and luxembourgs and brussels of tomorrow. As the
>universities multiply in Nigeria, they serve a possible hub, but only if
>they reverse the haram crap that religious institutions have imposed on
>them, i.e., when they become rigorous and innovative, as they had been 50
>years ago, when they generated knowledge in the foreranks of literature
>and thought.
>What happened in the 70s and 80s? we all know: the flight to south
>Africa, Europe, America, and a few failed attempts to places in east
>Europe or asia.
>Now it is the children of those who left then, from adichie¹s parents to
>the first omotoso, kole, and all the others who are in the lead. In some
>cases there were inbetween generations, like mudimbe. Getting old now;
>time for his children; gikandi, another rescapé from kenya; brilliant
>still, like Soyinka, but it is the time for the children, and where are
>they? at Harvard? At oxford?
>Those children will write great novels; be brilliant thinkers; go into
>physics and math; look at African universities, look at the history of
>what had been accomplished by the history dept in Dakar, the other
>notable centers, like codesria, and say, let¹s work with them too. And
>that day will see mamdani going back to east Africa, and rebuilding what
>amin had destroyed, brick by brick.
>
>Forget qaddafi¹s advice; he was a dictator. I was born to hate dictators
>and to love thinkers. Let¹s follow cabral, not macias; let¹s dump nguema,
>and reread our fanon and Soyinka again, there¹s more there than we can
>read in a lifetime, and they will ground us for the future. Mbembe is
>going strong. Let¹s give him honor, read him, debate him.
>We are in a struggle that people like trump and putin have made visible.
>And now you have to choose, which direction to take. I¹m betting that the
>new moses will be leading at a young age, and we will be happy to support
>him in his struggles. Starting right here.
>ken
>
>Kenneth Harrow
>Dept of English and Film Studies
>Michigan State University
>619 Red Cedar Rd
>East Lansing, MI 48824
>517-803-8839
>harrow@msu.edu
>http://www.english.msu.edu/people/faculty/kenneth-harrow/
>
>On 13/05/2017, 14:34, "Cornelius Hamelberg"
><usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com on behalf of
>corneliushamelberg@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>When future time Africa will - according to one MsJoe- have a common
>policy - by that time Africa should have got round to doing what Gaddafi
>invited Israel to do : joined at the hip,to join the Arab League.
>Where is Toyin Adepoju when I need him?
>
>
>This is for Muslims past, present and the future continuus
>
>https://youtu.be/a18py61_F_w://youtu.be/a18py61_F_w Thursday, 11 May 2017
>11:32:45 UTC+2, Olayinka Agbetuyi wrote:
>> Nigeria is still currently in the British Commonwealth.
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>> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
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>> -------- Original message --------
>>
>> From: Rex Marinus <rexma...@hotmail.com>
>>
>> Date: 10/05/2017 18:39 (GMT+00:00)
>>
>> To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
>>
>> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Obi of Onitsha, Ooni Ogunwusi
>>and HRH Sanusi as Growing National Brands
>>
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>> Agbetuyi:
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>> .The British are not citizens, but subjects of the Queen, and have no
>>rights of citizenship.
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>> . The United Kingdom, by its very term is not a "republic" but a
>>Constitutional monarchy. That is why Nigeria exited the Commonwealth in
>>1963, and enacted its charter of the Republic to be governed, not as
>>subjects of the Queen, but as citizens of Nigeria
>> under a constitutional, parliamentary democracy.
>>
>> . Yes, the Monarchy is incompatible with modernity. The entire movement
>>of modernity was against the values embodied by the institutional
>>monarchy and the church of medieval Europe. These relics of a narrow
>>aristocracy exercising power over a vast mass of
>> the untamed and powerless poor should be preserved only in the museum
>>for tourists to remind us of how far man has come in his quest for
>>freedom. By the way the only system that can grant you the power of a
>>referendum through a sovereign national conference
>> to relocate some of the power wrested from "traditional rulers" to
>>them is the democratic system. You would not convene by any other means.
>>But it would be a foolish race of inferior people who would seek to hand
>>their sovereign will - the divine in them -
>> to a single monarchical authority to rule them having attained the
>>right of self-determination in the first place. For the rest of your
>>questions, I think this editorial in the
>> Guardian in the UK answers them better than I could.
>>
>> -Obi Nwakanma
>>
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>>https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jul/27/future-of-the-royal
>>-family
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>> The monarchy is at odds with a modern Britain | Observer ...
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>> www.theguardian.com
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>> As republicanism gathered a little wind in the 1990s, following Her
>>Majesty's "annus horribilis" and helped by the founding of Charter 88, a
>>campaign for a democratic ...
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>> From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on
>>behalf of Olayinka Agbetuyi <yagb...@hotmail.com>
>>
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 9, 2017 10:53 PM
>>
>> To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
>>
>> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Obi of Onitsha, Ooni Ogunwusi
>>and HRH Sanusi as Growing National Brands
>>
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>> And if I may ask a few more questions:
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>> Are British nationals now seen as citizens or subjects given the fact
>>the sovereign is a monarch?
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>> Is the United Kingdom a republic?
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>> Is the monarchical system incompatible with modernity? (The UK led the
>>world into the Industrial Revolution via the monarchical system)
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>> Have citizens of non- republican states inalienable rights?
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>> Is the President of the United States equal de jure to the citizens who
>>voted into office while exercising the power of the presidency? Can any
>>citizen effect on the world stage what the president can put into
>>effect? ( Considerations which made yours
>> truly to categorize the American presidential system as neo-
>>monarchical plutocracy.)
>>
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>> If Nigeria holds a sovereign conference where some of the powers
>>wrested from traditional rulers via colonialism are returned to them in
>>exchange for real responsibilities would that be tantamount to a
>>sacrilege?
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>> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
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>> -------- Original message --------
>>
>> From: Toyin Falola <toyin...@austin.utexas.edu>
>>
>> Date: 09/05/2017 22:14 (GMT+00:00)
>>
>> To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
>>
>> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Obi of Onitsha, Ooni Ogunwusi
>>and HRH Sanusi as Growing National Brands
>>
>>
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>> Brilliant, as always, but other questions:
>>
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>> Is the modern state free of identity politics? Citizenship does not
>>mean the elimination of cleavages, as in say race and racial politics or
>>federalism and Igbo politics? Those cleavages have to be created,
>>organized and maintained, sometimes at the peril
>> of a Republic, just to give you a slice of support.Can I not, for
>>purposes of argument, see Pastor Adeboye as my leader instead of Buhari
>>and live in modern Nigeria? Is my allegiance non-negotiable?Are you not
>>confusing the ³theater" of politics‹as in those monarchs‹with modernity
>>and the republic? Is the theatric of politics the same as state power in
>>a republic? I will be in Onitsha in June‹can Obi Achebe (I know him by
>>the way!) arrest me?
>>
>> TF
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>>
>> Toyin
>> Falola
>>
>> Department
>> of History
>>
>> The
>> University of Texas at Austin
>>
>> 104
>> Inner Campus Drive
>>
>> Austin,
>> TX 78712-0220
>>
>> USA
>>
>> 512
>> 475 7224
>>
>> 512
>> 475 7222 (fax)
>>
>> http://sites.utexas.edu/yoruba-studies-review/
>>
>>
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>>
>> The Yoruba Studies Review - University Blog Service
>>
>>
>> sites.utexas.edu
>>
>>
>> The Yoruba Studies Review is a refereed biannual journal dedicated to
>>the study of the experience of the Yoruba peoples and their descendants
>>globally. The journal ...
>>
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>> http://www.toyinfalola.com
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>> Dr Toyin Falola | UT Professor of African Studies | Home
>>
>>
>> www.toyinfalola.com
>>
>>
>> dr toyin falola is the jacob and frances sanger mossiker chair profssor
>>in the humanities and a distinguished teaching professor at the
>>university of texas at austin.
>>
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>> http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa
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>> Africa History Conferences at the Univeristy of Texas at Austin
>>
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>> www.utexas.edu
>>
>>
>> African History Conference at the University of Texas at Austin
>>
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>> http://groups.google.com/group/yorubaaffairs
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>> Google Groups
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>>
>> groups.google.com
>>
>>
>> Google Groups allows you to create and participate in online forums and
>>email-based groups with a rich experience for community conversations.
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>> http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
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>> Google Groups
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>> groups.google.com
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>> Google Groups allows you to create and participate in online forums and
>>email-based groups with a rich experience for community conversations.
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>> From: dialogue <USAAfric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Rex Marinus
>><rexma...@hotmail.com>
>>
>> Reply-To: dialogue <USAAfric...@googlegroups.com>
>>
>> Date: Tuesday, May 9, 2017 at 3:57 PM
>>
>> To: dialogue <USAAfric...@googlegroups.com>
>>
>> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Obi of Onitsha, Ooni Ogunwusi
>>and HRH Sanusi as Growing National Brands
>>
>>
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>> Toyin asks a very vital and intriguing question: "If we cannot abolish
>>the ethnic and religious groups, as you have argued, can you abolish
>>some of their definitive markers? Thus, if you cannot abolish Islam and
>>Fulani, can you abolish the Sultan?"
>> And I dare to say, yes, you can abolish the Sultanate without
>>abolishing the Fulani. The repudiation of the Ottoman Caliph Abdul Mejid
>>Efendi and the abolition of the Caliphate by the Turkish Nationalists in
>>1924 did not end or destroy Turkish identity
>> and personhood, it in fact amplified it. When the British overthrew
>>and abolished the Caliphate of Sokoto in 1904, a new Fulani identity
>>tied far more closely to a new national spirit would have emerged had
>>the same British not created a Sultanate and imposed
>> their native informants to maintain a hybrid feudal system that
>>compromised that process under the "dual mandate." Nigerian
>>nationalists, founders of the modern nation argued strenuously against
>>the "dual mandate." As a successor state, Nigeria is obligated
>> to secure its compact with her citizens under the constitution of the
>>republic. In other words, Nigeria's compact with her citizens is not as
>>Igbo or Hausa or Yoruba or Fulani or Angas, but as "individual
>>citizens." A citizen is a sovereign self and does
>> not require any more ambiguous affiliation in that relationship with
>>nation. As a matter of fact people pay tax, are conscripted to war in
>>the event of war, are called up for National Service, serve
>>imprisonment, and suffer privations or even enjoy preferments as
>> individuals and not on the basis of their ethnic or religious
>>affiliation, if we go by the charter of the republic. The continual
>>maintenance of these sites of dual authority creates ambivalent
>>affiliations with nation. Perhaps one way of looking at this question
>> is to ask another: how does the Fulani animist, atheist, agnostic, or
>>even Christian like, say the writer, Emma Usman Shehu, fare under the
>>Sultan given the promise of an equality of citizenship between Emma
>>Usman Shehu and Abubakar III under the constitution?
>> Each of these individuals strictly by the guarantees of the
>>constitution of the republic cannot impose another rule, one on the
>>other, except by the laws granting them equal protection and equal
>>citizenship under the constitution?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> And Ken does asks this:
>>
>> Why not a thing, a local thing, called a kingdom. We might call it a
>>county with a county executive. We might call it a native reservation
>>with its own council and ruler,
>> native ruler. Under the ultimate authority of the stateŠ? Again, the
>>problem is with funding these institutions from the public purse, and in
>>creating sites of authority that undermine, complicate, or even
>>derogates power from municipal governance. We
>> already have local governments established by law, and so why
>>duplicate these and create avenues for local tyrants and potentates to
>>acquire and assert private domains of power as is currently the case? It
>>makes the nation unstable and slippery, and indeed,
>> anxious. A "kingdom" by its very nature belongs to a king, and a king
>>listens only to a king, who rules over "subjects" and not "citizens." We
>>did not fight colonialism in order to re-impose "subjection" and become
>>subject people. The difference between the
>> republic and the monarchy, ceremonial or not, is the difference
>>between the "subject" and the "citizen." The subject has no rights
>>except that granted him by his sovereign. And this in many ways
>>translates, even now, to the relationship between a vast number
>> of Nigerians, and their "big men" - who presume to be their kings. It
>>is the "Oga" mentality that silences, alienates, and disempowers, by its
>>very imposition of the situation of subjectivity, on a vast number of
>>people who still have no idea that the republic
>> has granted them inalienable rights and freedoms.
>>
>> Obi Nwakanma
>>
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>> From:
>> usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf
>>of Toyin Falola <toyin...@austin.utexas.edu>
>>
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 9, 2017 2:23 PM
>>
>> To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
>>
>> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Obi of Onitsha, Ooni Ogunwusi
>>and HRH Sanusi as Growing National Brands
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
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>>
>>
>> Question for Obi to advance this robust argument which I am enjoying
>>until someone takes us back to a primitive moment by useless name
>>calling:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> If we cannot abolish the ethnic and religious groups, as you have
>>argued, can you abolish some of their definitive markers? Thus, if you
>>cannot abolish Islam and Fulani, can you abolish the Sultan?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> TF
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Toyin
>> Falola
>>
>> Department
>> of History
>>
>> The
>> University of Texas at Austin
>>
>> 104
>> Inner Campus Drive
>>
>> Austin,
>> TX 78712-0220
>>
>> USA
>>
>> 512
>> 475 7224
>>
>> 512
>> 475 7222 (fax)
>>
>> http://sites.utexas.edu/yoruba-studies-review/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The Yoruba Studies Review - University Blog Service
>>
>>
>> sites.utexas.edu
>>
>>
>> The Yoruba Studies Review is a refereed biannual journal dedicated to
>>the study of the experience of the Yoruba peoples and their descendants
>>globally. The journal ...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.toyinfalola.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Dr Toyin Falola | UT Professor of African Studies | Home
>>
>>
>> www.toyinfalola.com
>>
>>
>> dr toyin falola is the jacob and frances sanger mossiker chair profssor
>>in the humanities and a distinguished teaching professor at the
>>university of texas at austin.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Africa History Conferences at the Univeristy of Texas at Austin
>>
>>
>> www.utexas.edu
>>
>>
>> African History Conference at the University of Texas at Austin
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> http://groups.google.com/group/yorubaaffairs
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Google Groups
>>
>>
>> groups.google.com
>>
>>
>> Google Groups allows you to create and participate in online forums and
>>email-based groups with a rich experience for community conversations.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Google Groups
>>
>>
>> groups.google.com
>>
>>
>> Google Groups allows you to create and participate in online forums and
>>email-based groups with a rich experience for community conversations.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>> From: dialogue <USAAfric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Rex Marinus
>><rexma...@hotmail.com>
>>
>> Reply-To: dialogue <USAAfric...@googlegroups.com>
>>
>> Date: Tuesday, May 9, 2017 at 9:05 AM
>>
>> To: dialogue <USAAfric...@googlegroups.com>
>>
>> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Obi of Onitsha, Ooni Ogunwusi
>>and HRH Sanusi as Growing National Brands
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>> Chika, first, no one can abolish the ethnic religious groups, be they
>>in India or any other place. That's out of the question. The class and
>>cast systems themselves are situations sedimented by economic and
>>religious reality. All those are besides the point.
>> As a matter of fact, the security of one's religion or ethnicity, is
>>part of the reality in the creation of a modern republic. Ideally, the
>>only "class" permitted by the republic is "equal citizenship"
>>irrespective of those affiliations. Whatever else accentuates
>> any disparity in class formation arises, as Marx would put it, from
>>the convergence of "material" and "historical" conditions. Secondly, it
>>is not quite right that the Indian state is the product of "Hindu
>>nationalism." Hindu nationalists may have had a great
>> hand in India's nationalist movement, but you must remember that the
>>legacy of Ghandi is of pluralism, and Jawaharhal Nehru was a secularist.
>>E.M. Forster's
>> Passage to India, at the very least, gives us a sense of the plural
>>nature of Indian nationalism under the British Raj. The Hindutva - Hindu
>>revivalist and militant nationalism does contend with the Islamist
>>movement of which it is in great conflict
>> even in cotemporary India. But also note that among the great
>>monarchies abolished by the Indian republic were Hindu Rajas and Kumaris.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> And Okey, this is not just a mere matter of my "hating" monarchies.
>>This is also not a question of adapting the monarchies to a republican
>>state. This is a question about nation and forms of nation. Nigeria
>>chose to be a multiethnic republic, not a constitutional
>> monarchy. And there is a reason for that. A republic by its very
>>nature is, well, a republic. Adapting the monarchies to a republic is
>>fundamental contradiction - it is like mixing paint and water. Besides,
>>it diffuses loyalties, and in a very fragile
>> state like Nigeria with its plural contours, it keeps active the
>>fissures that continue to limit its formation as nation. You cannot have
>>two captains in a ship.
>>
>> Obi Nwakanma
>>
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>>
>>
>> From:usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
>> on behalf of Okechukwu Ukaga <ukag...@umn.edu>
>>
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 9, 2017 12:25 PM
>>
>> To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
>>
>> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Obi of Onitsha, Ooni Ogunwusi
>>and HRH Sanusi as Growing National Brands
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> And why must we copy India? Nigeria and Nigerians should be free to
>>adopt/adapt/develop any system they like/want/need, and to keep or
>>change that as they find necessary and appropriate. Obi does not like
>>monarchy and for that reason wants everyone
>> to also not like it. Well, that is not going to happen. Some will
>>continue to like it while others will not. Best to make peace with such
>>reality and move on. Regards!
>>
>> OU
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 9, 2017 6:08 AM, "Chika Okeke-Agulu" <okeke...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Obi, the Indians may have abolished their monarchies, but not the
>>nationalisms of its constituent ethnic and religious groups, or its
>>uniquely entrenched class system. India is a nation funded by Hindu
>>nationalism. It is no more secular than Nigeria, despite
>> having a better working democratic system.
>>
>> Chika
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
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