Monday, August 8, 2022

Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Biden and Israel (Mike Peled)

dear chidi, i am sorry if my use of censorship horrified you. let me try to rephrase it. i do not believe in an american notion of free speech where i have the right to say anything, any time, any where. my concern is not "shouting fire in a theatre," but actually causing harm by saying things about other people. i believe that kind of speech should be limited, and people who violate it should be stopped and punished. an example here in europe, anad in canada, is holocaust denial, the idea being that you cause real harm by denying the existence of the holocaust.
if you attempt to stop such speech, and not simply punish it after it has been uttered, you are censoring the speech. i gave the example of radio mille collines, where hutu nationalists in rwanda were urging the people to kill tutsis (to "shorten" their legs, i.e., cut them down with machetes, and "send them home" via the river, i.e. kill them and throw them in the river. a genocide followed. i believe that speech should have been stopped. not simply punished, but stopped. is that not censorship? if you have a better term to describe it, fine with me. i don't think i woulld extent this concept to stopping people from saying what they want in books or films, as the effect there would no doubt be too mitigated, too mediated and indirect to cause direct harm.
further to your point: it isn't simply a question of your retracting an accusation of thievery against someone who isn't a thief. presumably you caused harm to that person, and should be forced to compensate them for the harm. the intended effect is to censor your speech. you can think what you want, but causing harm goes beyond simple expressions of opinion.
what do you think?
ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

harrow@msu.edu


From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Chidi Anthony Opara, FIIM <chidi.opara@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, August 8, 2022 9:20 AM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Biden and Israel (Mike Peled)
 
Professor Ken,

"Censorship" and "unfettered speech" to me are different concepts.

I am of the opinion that "censorship" as an act, seeks to stifle opinions that are considered unfavourable by the subjective parameters set by the stifling agent(s). "unfettered speech" on the other hand, is an extremity that is(and should)be checked(by law, etc).

I was horrified when you said that you believe in censorship. The points you raised about libel to buttress your belief in censorship didn't seem to me to be within context. 

If I call someone a thief without substantial evidence and the law of libel or slander(?) catches up with me and forces me to retract, that to me isn't censorship.

-CAO.

On Monday, August 8, 2022, Harrow, Kenneth <harrow@msu.edu> wrote:
gloria,
is it censorship that is in question?
if you don't agree with parts of a posting, why not indicate your differences? otherwise, we, the readers, will assume you do agree with it, which is why you posted it.
unlike most american liberals, i do believe in censorship.
i don't believe unfettered speech does not come at a cost.
two parts to this: if you were libeled, would you not protest that the speech was not only wrong, but damaged you? if it did damage you--say destroyed your reputation, cost you your job or a publication or anything, wouldn't you object or sue to recover the damages?
i believe the libels used against the jews over the centuries damaged us. it incited people to kill us, from the blood llibels of the middlle ages down to hitler's propaganda.
i believe the libels used by radio mille ccollines in kigali damaged tutsis and incited the genocide against them. clinton objected to bombing that radio station since americans are against censorship. whaat hypocrisy; what death followed.
personal libel; libel against a people, both can cause irreparable harm.

well, i agree we want to counter libel with truthful ripostes; but i do not believe all speech can be uttered without doing harm, and that it should be subject to limits. meaning censorship.
our moderator apparently will not tolerate us libeling and screaming aat each other oon this list. who would want to continue to contribute if they were personally attacked?
ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

harrow@msu.edu


From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Gloria Emeagwali <gloria.emeagwali@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 7, 2022 8:01 PM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Biden and Israel (Mike Peled)
 
why post something if you do not agree with it, or at least indicate your distance from it?  harrow 

You must be kidding.  Is that what 
scholarship is about? If I were to post
only what I  agree with,  then 90 percent 
of what I posted  so far, would never see the light of day.  And I don't have to indicate distance  from, or  agreement 
with the pieces I post.  Why
should I? For example, I agree fully          with parts of the last two articles
 I posted - and disagree with some 
parts of them. Let us reject
censorship outright.

Gloria Emeagwali 

On Sun, Aug 7, 2022 at 07:43 Harrow, Kenneth <harrow@msu.edu> wrote:
i'd add to the list gloria mentioned, jvp (jewish vvoices for peace), which is critical left, critical of zionism.

i am not sure i want to invest the time in laying out alll these positions., i feeel most comfortable with jvp, and after them j-street. i feel, as a jew, betrayed by the ultraorthodox, betrayed by israel's early position to give them  authority over all religious issues, which meant ultimately excluding most american jews from their far-right wing understandings of the world and religion.
all this, to which i'd add, that unlike many people i know, i am sympathetic with the "palestinian cause," which means, to me, that israel has not taken a just position toward its conquered palestinian population, or even toward its own arab citizens.

i don't go as far as the commentator gloria posted (why post something if you do not agree with it, or at least indicate your distance from it?), in two ways. to vituperate against jews as if they were the same as biblical israelites is too evil and dumb to even discuss. it is fundamentally antisemitic, as it would be racist to attack africans for killing twins or any other practices from the past that are no longer part of contemporary people's values. and secondly, i don't agree that when israel was created, the land and people called palestine was stolen. there was a division, made by the british, that split the lands, perhaps favoring the jewish side, but essentially splitting what had been ottoman palestine. jews had been there before world war one--maybe 10%, since forever--and by the time of independence, 1948, their population had swelled to maybe 40 or 45%.
with independence, the arab states attacked and lost; many palestinians fled or were driven out. two more wars followed; each time israel won and expanded its borders, at the expense of palestinians. we now have occupied territories--the west bank and gaza--two terrible palestinian ruling parties, the PA and Hamas--and justice/peace no where in sight.
the article to which i objected began with awful calumnies, but in the end, i agreed with much of the author's critique of the israeli state's practices.

i wish there were a just peace on the horizon. i do not believe it will come through war or violence, just the contrary. i'd be happy to discuss the issues concerning what is blocking peace, or should be done to bring peace. but not if the context is surreptitiously antisemitic or blind to the humanity of either israelis or palestinians.
i don't know why, exactly, this is a concern for our list, which is focused on africa. but it comes up from time to time, and is directly important if we consider the politics as relating to egypt and the horn oof africa, or israeli business interests in the drc or elsewhere.

ken


kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

harrow@msu.edu


From: 'Emeagwali, Gloria (History)' via USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 6, 2022 6:20 PM
To: Chidi Anthony Opara, FIIM <chidi.opara@gmail.com>; usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Biden and Israel (Mike Peled)
 
Ken points to three approaches and critics , 
namely:

A. Ultra - conservative orthodox 
B. Anti- Arab conservative 
C. Critical moderate

Add to that:
D. Radical anti-Zionist (Peled etc.)

Hearing the views of each of these
could only be a plus. Why not?
I agree with CAO. Ken should elaborate 
on A, B and C, or post articles that
represent one or two of the above.
Posting  an ultra conservative piece 
does not automatically imply that
you agree with it.




Professor Gloria Emeagwali
Prof. of History/African Studies, CCSU
africahistory.net; vimeo.com/ gloriaemeagwali
Recipient of the 2014 Distinguished Research
Excellence Award, Univ. of Texas at Austin;
2019 Distinguished Africanist Award
New York African Studies Association


From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Chidi Anthony Opara, FIIM <chidi.opara@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 6, 2022 5:09 PM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Biden and Israel (Mike Peled)
 

EXTERNAL EMAIL: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click any links or open any attachments unless you trust the sender and know the content is safe.

Professor Ken,

Why is it such "a tall order" to also have a detailed pro-Israel perspective on the matter to enable us comparatively assess the the issues raised better?

With an open mind, we can find it, the same way we are able to find this one under reference.

-CAO.

On Saturday, August 6, 2022, Harrow, Kenneth <harrow@msu.edu> wrote:
this is a tall order, chidi. the "pro-israel" positions range from ultraorthodox positions that are truly repugnant to any but true blue believers, to rightwing anti arab conservatives like netanyahu and his supporters. j-street is a jewish advocacy group that is not anti-zionist, but that offers substantiaal criticisms of the israeli govts and their abuses.

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

harrow@msu.edu


From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Chidi Anthony Opara, FIIM <chidi.opara@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 6, 2022 3:44 PM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Biden and Israel (Mike Peled)
 
The opening of the article sounded too emotional to me, which substantially reduced its credibility in my opinion.

I am however of the opinion that if it is feasible at this point in time, let us have a pro-Israel perspective on same matter posted here for proper comparative assessment of the issues raised.

-CAO.

On Sunday, July 31, 2022, 'Emeagwali, Gloria (History)' via USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> wrote:

BIDEN WHITEWASHES ISRAEL'S CRIMES 

July 30, 2022, Miko Peled 

www.mintpress.com 

Upon his arrival at Ben Gurion Airport, which sits on the lands of the occupied Palestinian city of El-Lyd, President Joe Biden repeated his age-old mantra, "You don't have to be a Jew to be a Zionist." Indeed you do not. To be a Zionist, you only need to be a racist, a supporter of the hate-filled, violent, intolerant apartheid regime that has been occupying Palestine since 1948. You need to believe that people who are not Palestinians have a right to Palestine and to its resources. To be a Zionist, you don't need to be Jewish, you just need to repeat the absurd claim that the Bible gives all Jewish people around the world the right to kill people because they are Palestinians who want to return to their homes and their land. 

In a nauseating show of hypocrisy, President Biden, Israeli President Yitzhak Hertzog, and Prime Minister Lapid spoke of peace, justice, and human rights as the shared values of the United States and the State of Israel. This was less than twenty-four hours after John Bolton admitted to orchestrating coup d'états in countries around the world. This is also after Israeli military, and political figures openly talked about assassinating Iranian scientists and officials. 

The values shared by Israel and the United States are clearly represented in the fact that President Biden is visiting a country that only recently assassinated the American-Palestinian journalist Shireen Abu-Akleh and is keeping silent about it. The president of the United States is in Israel, meeting with heads of the Israeli state, and yet rather than using the full force of his position – which is considerable – to demand accountability, he says and does nothing. 

American journalist Jamal Khashoggi. The murders of Khashoggi and that of Shireen Abu Akleh are not the only crimes committed by the two regimes for which Biden is showing love, but these two were well publicized and involve U.S. nationals, so one would think he would act or at least speak out. 

A BAD DEAL 

U.S. support for Israel is a bad deal for the American taxpayers. $3.8 billion dollars of American taxpayers' money gets sent to Israel at the beginning of each year. And with the exception of the military-industrial complex, Americans get little out of this. 

American citizens who wish to travel to Palestine, particularly if they have an Arab name or family there, are subjected to harassment by the Israeli authorities. This harassment takes place at Tel-Aviv airport, where the authorities are notoriously racist, anti-Arab and anti-Muslim. The harassment can last for many hours and often results in refusal of entry into the country. U.S. citizens are not protected from the inhumane interrogation process that takes place at the airport on the way in, and they are not protected by their U.S. citizenship when they leave the country. 

A U.S. passport does not even protect Americans from being shot and killed by Israeli forces. Rachel Corrie and Shireen Abu-Akleh, both citizens of the United States, were killed in broad daylight. They were wearing safety equipment, they were well identified as non-combatant civilians, and they were both butchered in plain sight. Washington made no effort to bring the criminals to justice. 

Another U.S. citizen who died at the hand of IDF soldiers is Omar Abdalmajeed As'ad. He died on January 12 after he was arrested by IDF troops. According to a report in The Jerusalem Post, the seventy-eight-year-old As'ad "was arrested, handcuffed, blindfolded and gagged," after which the soldiers left. Also, according to the Post report, "the soldiers did not call for medical assistance and left him there believing that he had fallen asleep." Although several members of congress did issue statements, no real action was taken to hold Israel accountable. 

Where was the U.S. government to protect him? Where was the demand to investigate and bring the culprits to justice? and where are the sanctions against the State of Israel, which shows no regard for the lives of Palestinians? 

The Israeli human-rights organization B'Tselem commented that: "The army's announcement regarding the death of Omar Assad is adorned with empty words about 'moral failure' – concluding, as expected, with the faintest of rebukes…In fact, the fundamental moral failure is that of Israel's senior echelons, leading a regime of Jewish supremacy, one in which the human life of Palestinians has no value." 

NO DEMOCRACY, NO STABILITY 

Contrary to what is said about Israel, it is neither a democracy nor an island of stability. It has been several years since Israel has been able to function as a state. This is due to the fact that there has not been a government with a stable majority in place. Elections are held over and over again, and even though the results are predictably the same, no stable government is formed. The election results have been consistent, clearly showing what Israeli voters want, namely, they are in favor of a strong, ultra-right-wing government led by racists like Benjamin Netanyahu, who was indicted for corruption, and war criminal generals like Benny Gantz. 

Neither the corruption nor the war crimes seem to have any impact on the voters, and these people are elected over and over again. The only thing that changes are the partnerships between the politicians who rarely last very long and the new generals that join the political arena. The one thing that remains constant in Israeli politics is Benjamin Netanyahu. He and his loyal Likud Party followers are the only stable, consistent element in Israeli politics. 

WHO IS JOE BIDEN WORKING FOR? 

Judging by his performance, Joe Biden is working for AIPAC and not for the American people. He hit every note, shook every hand and repeated his mantras, clearly trying to please his donors back home. According to reports, he even made sure to tell Benjamin Netanyahu that he likes him. His interview on Israeli television included a commitment to keep the Iranian Revolutionary Guard on the list of terrorist organizations and even to attack Iran if that was what it took to prevent it from developing nuclear weapons. That is not what his constituents in the U.S. want, but it is what Israel and AIPAC expect of him. 

Feature photo | President Joe Biden, center, speaks with U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken, right, and Israel's President Isaac Herzog at the Hall of Remembrance of the Yad Vashem Holocaust Memorial Museum in Jerusalem, July 13, 2022. Debbie Hill | Pool via AP 

Miko Peled is MintPress News contributing writer, published author and human rights activist born in Jerusalem. His latest books are"The General's Son. Journey of an Israeli in Palestine," and "Injustice, the Story of the Holy Land Foundation Five." 




Professor Gloria Emeagwali
History Department, Central Connecticut State University
www.africahistory.net
Gloria Emeagwali's Documentaries
2014 Distinguished Research Excellence Award in African Studies
 University of Texas at Austin
2019   Distinguished Africanist Award                   
New York African Studies Association
Founding Co -Chair. Sengbe Pieh AMISTAD Committee
Founding Director, African Studies, CCSU
 

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