1. "Ori inu"
Let's use it in a sentence for better appreciation of its meaning: "Ori inu Toyin ti ba ti ode re je." Ask someone with a deep knowledge of esoteric use of Yoruba for translation. So, "Ori inu" as an esoteric phrase goes deeper than the "visual" interpretation of "Oju inu" because "oju inu" is limited to the ability to mentally perceive something.
Thanks for your efforts.I will respond to both your substantive ideas and your method of communication.
I place your responses in italics.Mine are in the usual font.
1. "Ori inu"
Let's use it in a sentence for better appreciation of its meaning: "Ori inu Toyin ti ba ti ode re je." Ask someone with a deep knowledge of esoteric use of Yoruba for translation. So, "Ori inu" as an esoteric phrase goes deeper than the "visual" interpretation of "Oju inu" because "oju inu" is limited to the ability to mentally perceive something.
Response to the substantive idea:
First,you need to clarify what you mean by the term mental perception. What is the scope of mentation in your understanding of classical Yoruba epistemology and conception of the self ? All perception can be described to be mental because it is processed through the mind.In speaking of mental perception,therefore,are you referring to the perception of visual phenomena objectively accessible to the physical eye or to a metaphorical use of the term as represented by imagination,in which you 'see' things with the 'eye'of your mind,or are you referring to psychic perception in which you perceive aspects of physical phenomena which are not ordinarily visible because they are not in themselves physical,such as an aura or energy emanated by physical forms, or are you referring to the perception of non-physical phenomena,such as disembodied spirits,or are you referring to perception in an abstract sense,as the perception of an idea?
This list of possible conceptions of vision is related to Babatunde Lawal's presentation of a comprehensive understanding of classical Yoruba conceptions of vision as unifying visual perception,intellectual perception,imaginative perception and psychic perception and action in terms of the concept of Oju Inu:
"As with other aspects of Yoruba culture, the eyeball is thought to have two aspects, an outer layer called oju ode (literally, external eye) or oju lasan (literally, naked eye), which has to do with normal, quotidian vision, and an inner one called oju inu (literally, internal eye) or oju okan (literally, mind's eye). The latter is associated with memory, intention, intuition, insight, thinking, imagination, critical analysis, visual cognition, dreams, trances, prophecy, hypnotism, empathy, telepathy, divination, healing, benevolence, malevolence, extrasensory perception, and witchcraft, among others. For the Yoruba, these two layers of the eye combine to determine iworan, the specular gaze of an individual."
Àwòrán: Representing the Self and Its Metaphysical Other in Yoruba Art Author(s): Babatunde Lawal Source: The Art Bulletin, Vol. 83, No. 3 (Sep., 2001), pp. 498-526. 516.
Lawal's description of this concept is corroborated by the significance of the eye in classical Yoruba sculpture in which the bulging eyes in Yoruba sculpture as representing the presence of an extra-physical vision, a level of perception that goes beyond what is generally accessible to physical sight and penetrates to hidden, spiritual levels of existence (I cant get my hand on the relevant references right now).
This understanding of Oju inu is also substantiated by an analysis of the semantics,the vpossiblities of meaning, of the concept of "inu" in relation to classical Yoruba/Orisa epistemology and understanding of the self.Within this philosophy,the concept of "inu",translatable as "inside", "inwardness",implies a range of meanings, from the physical to the abstract.In its physical sense it denotes the interior of an object.This could refer to the interior of a house,thus one could state "inu ile", "inside or interior of the house"
Taking further this literal understanding of the concept of "inu",I will elaborate later,perhaps in another post, on the metaphorical and metaphysical possibilities of the understanding of the interior of a structure in terms of pot symbolism in Yoruba thought in comparison with the metaphorical and metaphysical understanding of the significance of the interior of a house in the philosophy of the Chinese thinker Lao Tzu .
In its abstract sense,the concept of "inu" indicates the inner,hidden level of a form, a state or process of perception or of being. This abstract level of interpretation is represented by the term "oju inu" meaning "inner or inward eye".Lawal describes this term as used in contrast to "oju lasan'" which means the ordinary eye, "lasan" indicating a basic state, "lasan" meaning "only",also used to mean "basic".In being used in relation to sight, "lasan" in "Oju Lasan" refers to the basic capacities of the eye,which is to perceive objectively visible physical phenomena.The concept of an inner,hidden level of vision represented by "Oju Inu",therefore, refers to the ability to perceive more than the physical sight makes possible.
To better understand the concept of "inu" translatable as "inside", "inner", "inward",particularly as it is developed in terms of classical Yoruba thought, it is particularly useful to relate it to its use in the conception of the self represented by the concepts of "Ori" and "Ori Inu".The word ''Ori' means head.It may also be used to refer to the immaterial personality,the spirit that is understood as being the nucleus of the self and the embodiment of the individual's potential, a self that predates the birth of the individual on earth and outlives the death of the body.(I will give some fascinating references on this in another post perhaps when I represent this summation as an elaboration of my essay that prompted this discussion).
The specific manner of referring to this invisible self is described by Lawal as the concept of 'Ori Inu' meaning, 'inner or inward head'.The conception of inwardness in the concept of Ori Inu does not imply a physical inwardness,such as that represented by the brain,but an abstract inwardness,a spiritual personality.
This 'inner head',being a spiritual entity that derives from the creator of the universe and is the source of the individual's capacities and possibilities may be related to powers possessed by the spirit self but not ordinarily accessible to the individual.One of these powers could be described as an awareness of the individual's possibilities in terms of relationships between past,present and future within the context framed by the influences on the person's life.It might be this level of awareness represented by the Ori Inu that makes the invocation of the Ori Inu a central feature of Ifa divination,as described by Wande Abimbola and my Ifa teacher Joseph Ohomina enabling the Ori to communicate its wishes and insights through communication with the Odu Ifa,as manifested in the patterns formed by the divinatory instruments when cast by the babalawo. This could be seen as leading to the notion described by Abimbola that no Orisa can bless a person without the consent of their Ori.
On that account,the conception of Ori Inu gives credence to Lawal's description of Oju Inu as being the capacity for a range of perceptive capacities as these demonstrate the individual's possibilities, ranging from imagination to creative thinking and psychic perception.
The analysis I have provided above unifies the concepts of " inu", "inwardnes" in classical Yoruba thought with respect to the head and the eye, which yours does not do.
Response to your method of presentation:
I get the impression that your method of presentation is simplistic because you begin by using a sentence that does not relate directly with the concept of "Oju inu" "inner sight or inwardnes of sight" and you do not proceed to justify this deviation from the topic under discussion,.Neither do you define "Ori inu" which you choose to exemplify in a sentence,which itself is not contextualized.
You also do not seem sensitive to the scope of the use of the concept of "Inu" in Yoruba language and thought. That insensitivity is not justifiable in relation to the evidence of the published literature and actual practice in Yoruba usage.
2. "Awo"
The body of wisdom in Ifa is called Odu Ifa and not Awo. Your definition of "Awo in this regard says, ""Within the discipline of Ifa [ the central integrative discipline of the Orisa tradition] there is a body of wisdom called "awo.""
Odu Ifa refers to the structural organisation of the Ifa system beceause it is organised in terms of 256 categories called Odu.In that sense,therefore,the body of knowledge embodied by Ifa is understood as Odu Ifa.Its also correct, however, to further describe the esoteric dimension of that knowledge as "awo" because the term "awo" derives from the appellation of of the Ifa priest-babalawo-master of esoteric knowledge-a superior translation to the usual translation "father of secrets"-beceause the term "baba" in Yoruba may refer not only to fatherhood but to mastery and accomplishment.The term "awo" also appears in other contexts which indicate magical,hidden power such as the expression " Awo okatakpiri awo!" used as an invocatory exclamation in a particular Yoruba folk-tale, my first encounter with this term which my friend Sonya Olatayo translated along lines correlative with the more expansive interpretation by Fatumnbi. "Awo" therefore,is better understood not simply as "secret" but as "esoteric knowledge in the sense of a kind of knowedge arrived at only through special procedures of the kind that enable the depth of vsion of "oju inu" and the access to the spiritual insight of "ori inu",an access which babalawo Joseph Ohomina describes Ifa divination as being centred on in the first place.The knowledge is esoteric not just beceause it is not known to most,but beceause it is reached through an exapsion of consciousness not available to most people.
The exoteric aspect of Ifa is represented by the literal and even the metaphorical meaning of the ese ifa,the Ifa literature that constitutes the content of the Odu Ifa as well as its organisational structure in terms of the permutations of the odu ifa.Even some Ifa herbalogy,in its therapeutic, spiritual and magical dimension,can be seen as exoteric because it has been made available in Pierre Verger's Ewe:The Uses of Plants in Yoruba Society.
The psychological aspects of the method and process of training,the relationships with spiritual entities which the babalawo cultivates in the process of training ,the specifics of the interpretive process conducted by the babalawo in the process of reading the divination instruments,the process through which the babalawo is supposed to abe able to gain insight into hidden worlds of being,communicate with the Ori inu of the client and with the sentient personalities of the odu (I will address this concept in another post),and help address people's challenges using this hidden knowledge, are esoteric.This esoteric dimension refers to the psychological and psychic dimensions of practice.Another aspects that is esoteric beceause it might not be taught to the public is the use of particular incantations and other magical practices.
I would describe the esoteric dimension in Ifa as describable in terms of two levels.The basic level refers to those aspects that can be learnt in terms of conventional human capacity for understanding but are not taught to non-initiates.This might include incantations.
The second refers to those which can be learnt only through the cultivation of cognitive faculties and interpretive abilities developed through training and which could be different from the kind of knowledge gained through the conventional training of the intellect and imagination.
3. "Aje" (witchcraft)
Aje has NEVER represented the 255 Odu Ifa, it has never been closely associated with the 256 Odu Ifa, and it will never be that described. In your definition of "Aje" you wrote, "the unity of female Orisa in Ille,the Earth Mother and her manifestation in Odu,the feminine cosmic transformative and hermeneutic personality and her 256 manifestations, manifestations described by Fatunmbi as energy patterns through which everything in nature comes into manifestation
Going further, you quoted some sources that says, "When the founder of witchcraft (Odu) was leaving heaven for the earth, Olodumare gave her a special Ase in the form of a bird enclosed in a calabash." [the calabash of Odu,Igba Odu, 'the beginning and the end of all things' is a cosmic symbol that sums up the creative personalities that underlie the cosmos in relation to the fecundative and nurturing womb that is Odu]..."To the Yoruba Ase is invisible and immaterial; when activated it flies like a mysterious bird…."
"Founder of witchcraft…" Who was the founder and where was witchcraft founded?
"The calabash of Odu, Igba Odu…." Igba Odu is a real sacred substance in Ifa; its definition and usage is definitely contrary to your assumed definition and usages.
Lets take this slowly because it deals with particularly subtle ideas.
First,this is odd beceause it seems the second part of your quote is not from my post that sparked our debatae in the first place.The ideas in square brackets strike me as being mine and I am acquainted with the Babatunde Lawal essay where the point about Odu and the calabash is made althpough I adont reciollect quoting it anywhere.Have I made an exploicit correlation between aje and Ifa anyhwhere/? If so please let me know where.Neverheless I will adess your querys.
You state: " "The calabash of Odu, Igba Odu…." Igba Odu is a real sacred substance in Ifa" That fact is not negated by my analysis.Whatever the further characterisations of the Igba Odu it is visible as a calabash.The word 'igba' means 'calabash' so 'Igba Odu' means 'Calabash of Odu"
The literature describes that calabash as the location of the sacred substance you mention.Bascom,Johnson,Williams also proceed to describe the contents of that calabash while Johnson states that those contents also include an unknown substance.
Are you arguing that the 'real sacred substance' you describe 'Igba Odu' to be is not correlative with or located inside a calabash called 'Igba Odu' ?
You also question in relation to the descsription of Odu as founder of witchcraft that " "Founder of witchcraft…" Who was the founder and where was witchcraft founded?"
The answer to your request for historical and geographical specificity on this is that the concept of Odu as founder of witchcraft is a myth. Meaning it is not history in terms of an actual happening at a point in time just like the most Ifa narratives are not depictions of actual incidents even though tsome might have a relationship with history.
The story of Odu,aje and the calabash with the 'bird power' is best understood,to me,as a myth meant to communicate a relationship between the feminine personality of Odu and the creative mobility of the spiritual power symbolized by the bird.
The story of a woman, be it Osun or Odu, coming to earth from the creator with a calabash with a bird in it recurs in a number of ese ifa.
The calabash is used as a container of sacred substances and a symbol of spiritual and political authority in Yoruba tradition.
The bird and the calabash suggest the embodiment of the power to fly like birds attributed to aje,a spiritual personality often ascribed to women more than to men. The fact that Odu is described as a woman by so many sources on the tradition also corroborates this notion of correlation between the feminine principle of Odu and the bird calabash.
The description of the spirit in the human being as moving out of the body with the character of a bird indicates that one can correlate the bird of Odu's calabash with the capacity for movement through a spiritual body attributed to aje.
The fact that Odu is the feminine power central to Ifa suggests a relationship between Odu,Ifa and the kind of mobility of spiritual power attributed to aje,to whom Odu is linked through her bird calabash.
This section of my analysis would benefit from elabiorate expoistion and I will provide that later.
I stop here because this is where you effort to contradict my argument stops. I dont interpret your statements in Yoruba as repressing a construction of an argument. Obviously you cannot make your point by simply making a pronouncement in whatever language you might use.You cannot be serious about trying to expound, not to talk of doing so decisively, such profound concepts as Awo,Ori Inu,Aje and Ase,in terms of a few lines of Yoruba which have little, if any,or no bearing on the subject. You are making yourself look unserious by your attempt at trying to claim special knowledge in the form of Ifa literature in Yoruba that does not adress the delicate and painstaking kind of anakysis required here.
As it is,Yoruba users will read my response to you and see the way I have taken apart your attempted and weak corrections to my previous analysis. These readers will see for themselves the scope of my grasp of the relevant technical philosophical terminology from classical Yoruba thought and how your presentation of the concepts under discussion is at best perfunctory. A number of those readers will also be enlightened by my presentation because they might not have known of the subtlety, depth and sophistication of classical Yoruba epistemology and metaphysics before reading my analysis. That is the duty of enlightenment those who are informed owe others, not the attempt at mystification your intervention has ended up becoming.
I would have proven that meaningful level of knowledge and some level of authoritativeness of knowledge about Ifa does not lie with babalawo alone or with people who can quote long lines in Yoruba. Depth of knowledge of the basic terminology along with depth of reflection on concepts and their interrelationship is what I have demonstrated. You will need such skills too if you are to maximise the value of your knowledge of Yoruba and whatever you know about Ifa in an argument and exposition of the kind we are engaged in.As someone put it, both the knowledge one has and how well it is assimilated in the mind and used are central to the ultimate significance of that knowledge.
thanks
toyin
In a message dated 8/3/2010 4:41:33 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, FSOrunmila@aol.com writes:I promised I would oblige you your request you should insist. Of course, you insisted. Here is a snapshot of some of the definitions:
1. "Ori inu"
Let's use it in a sentence for better appreciation of its meaning: "Ori inu Toyin ti ba ti ode re je." Ask someone with a deep knowledge of esoteric use of Yoruba for translation. So, "Ori inu" as an esoteric phrase goes deeper than the "visual" interpretation of "Oju inu" because "oju inu" is limited to the ability to mentally perceive something.
2. "Awo"
The body of wisdom in Ifa is called Odu Ifa and not Awo. Your definition of "Awo in this regard says, ""Within the discipline of Ifa [ the central integrative discipline of the Orisa tradition] there is a body of wisdom called "awo.""
3. "Aje" (witchcraft)
Aje has NEVER represented the 255 Odu Ifa, it has never been closely associated with the 256 Odu Ifa, and it will never be that described. In your definition of "Aje" you wrote, "the unity of female Orisa in Ille,the Earth Mother and her manifestation in Odu,the feminine cosmic transformative and hermeneutic personality and her 256 manifestations, manifestations described by Fatunmbi as energy patterns through which everything in nature comes into manifestation
Going further, you quoted some sources that says, "When the founder of witchcraft (Odu) was leaving heaven for the earth, Olodumare gave her a special Ase in the form of a bird enclosed in a calabash." [the calabash of Odu,Igba Odu, 'the beginning and the end of all things' is a cosmic symbol that sums up the creative personalities that underlie the cosmos in relation to the fecundative and nurturing womb that is Odu]..."To the Yoruba Ase is invisible and immaterial; when activated it flies like a mysterious bird…."
"Founder of witchcraft…" Who was the founder and where was witchcraft founded?
"The calabash of Odu, Igba Odu…." Igba Odu is a real sacred substance in Ifa; its definition and usage is definitely contrary to your assumed definition and usages.
I have to stop here because the intention is not to teach you Ifa but to guide you to a better understanding of some of the terms you used and of which you insisted on their in-dept definitions.
So, o di igba kan na, while I leave you with some owun Awo:
a) Ode gbangba ko see kan ashe si (accents on ase are do do and it is not the "ase you are used to seeing or hearing)…. This line is from Odu Ifa Ofun Ogunda. I hope you understand the message from me to you via the owun Awo.
b) Ti a ba wi fun won, ti won ba gbo; aye a ma ye won; ti a ba wi fun won, ti won ba gba; aye a ma ye won; awi igbo; afo igba; Babalawo Ode lo se Ifa fun Ode; Ode nre'gbo ije, eluju ije…" from Odu Ifa Ofun Ogbe Ofun N'Ogbe).
Lastly, the quotes embody some of the words and phrases you already defined in your "research." Everything you need to know about "Ori inu," "Awo," "Ase," "Aje," etc., are in them. Decode the messages and you will be blissfully enlightened because Ifa is still very much owun Awo. Now I will close with another owun Awo, whichi is "Aboru aboye" (meaning???).
Iyalaje
In a message dated 8/3/2010 12:58:56 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, toyin.adepoju@googlemail.com writes:Fama,When you are ready to put on public display what you know then come back.There are various books on Ifa some of which I have read.Directing me to more books is not the point here.You claim that there mistakes in my presentation of Ifa epistemology and cosmology yet you are unable to justify your claim.I hereby state,as I have before,that whatever knowledge you have,if you have any,cannot back you up.You cannot prove that there are mistakes in my knowledge.It is now clear to the world that you have nothing to say.thankstoyin
On 3 August 2010 00:25, <FSOrunmila@aol.com> wrote:
Ogbeni, ko ya mi lenu wipe o ko gbo Yoruba. Ka wipe o gbo ijinle Yoruba ni, waa mo wipe mo ti da e l'owun nitori wipe, "Abo oro ni a nso fun omo ti iwa ba bi (omoluwabi)," gegebi owe Yoruba, ti o so siwaju si wipe, "Ti abo oro yi ba de inu omoluwabi tan nko? A di odindi." Let me help you paraphrase my statement in the English language that you understand so much, even though it has been detrimental to your own language background (I mean your native language, assuming you even have it). "I have answered your questions and challenges. Did you see the books to which I referred you? If you did, then, you would have understood my messages as well as my background in the subject under ddiscussion. Meanwhile, however, save the time and energy until you read them because by then, your knowledge of Yoruba costmology would have exapnded a little bit. At which stage, it would be productive on my part to engage in your epistemological treatrise."
Please, don't waste any more time with two/three page internet posts of your half-baked researches. You know how rigorous academic research is supposed to be conducted: not the wish-wash type you have been posting, in particular on the subject of Ifa and the Orisas.My best regards, regardless of venoms.Iyalaje.In a message dated 8/2/2010 3:38:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time, toyin.adepoju@googlemail.com writes:You are yet to substantiate your claims about the error in my writing about Orisa epistemology and metaphysics.thankstoyin
On 2 August 2010 23:21, <FSOrunmila@aol.com> wrote:Arakunrin, dakun fi "epistemology" sile. Ki a tie bi yin, se ti thesis ni tabi ti desertation? Awa naa gbo ede epistemology die. Sugbon, nkan ti epistemology wa fun ni lati fi eko ti eniyan ba ko ni idi epistemology ti oyinbo gbe awon nkan omiran ni aruge. Eni ti ko tile mo oriru re bi iru yin bayi, bawo ni o se le s'owo po lati gbe ga? O ye ki oju o ti e (be ashamed of yourself), arakunrin. O ni (you wrote) o ko le ka Yoruba tabi ko Yoruba, oyinbo ti o ko e lati k'eyin si ede re naa ni o tun lo ba wipe ki o ko e ni itan oriru re. A wi tan, o ni ede Yoruba ko ni ese nile; bawo lo se ma l'ese nile nigbati awon akotileta bi tire ti fee taa fun oyinbo tan?I have just noticed from another email that you are actually trying to translate my earlier Yoruba sentences. Very good? I am impressed by your willingness to learn Yoruba. Keep it up.O di igba kan na--translate this one correctly, please. Hopefully, your "working Yoruba" will suffice."Odumare a la e ni oju o"-Chief FamaWhy should I need Odumare to 'open my eyes', expand my vision,when you can do so on his/her behalf?If you really have some rare knowledge that contradicts mine please let us know so that our eyes will open,our perception clarified.You are not defining any terms in contradiction to my own.In my essay I interpreted the Yoruba terms Awo,Ori inu,Oju inu,Oju lasan,,Ase,Ille,Iyami and Odu but you are not addressing any of those terms in your lines of Yoruba.Even a non Yoruba literate person can see that.All my terms were used in their original Yoruba,though without diacritics.If you are presenting definitions that contradict mine,even if you insist on using Yoruba,anyone can see that those terms are not in your lines or Yoruba so you cannot be refuting my essay which is a definition of terms written in the Yoruba language.You are dodging the challenge because you dont know anything,with all your Yoruba knowledge, that negates what I have written about Yoruba/Orisa epistemology and metaphysics.Just so you know-Dont be deceived and think I know no Yoruba.I am not Yoruba but having schooled and lived in Ibadan and Lagos and committed myself to learning about Yoruba systems of thought,I have a working knowledge of Yoruba so translating what you have written might not be a big deal for me.The core of my argument is that what you have written in Yoruba, the gist of which is not difficult for me to see,does not address your need to substantiate your claims as to the errors in my work.In this Yoruba posturing,you seem to forget that the Orisa tradition and Ifa are global,having had pan-African links from their ancient period,extending from the Afa of Igboland to the Fa of Dahomey,with similarities with the Oguega of Benin,where clasical Ifa is also practised, and demonstrating similarities with the Sikidy of Malagasy,and later travelling into Cuba and North and South Anerica and the Ukraine.So all this posturing on Yoruba does not represent the global reality of the Orisa tradition,the business of which is conducted in a multitude of languages.I am not impressed.You condemned my work in English in so many words but you want to to respond to a challenge to substantiate your claim by invoking a few lines of Yoruba.You ought to have written your website in Yoruba if you are so proud of the language.But you will not, because it will not help the monetary business you conduct on the site.I anticipated you would relapse into the claim of esoteric knowledge to avoid addressing the claims you made against my work with such confidence.On the contrary the esoteric element in the Orisa tradition does involve the definition of basic but not well understood terms I defined.The esoteric element can be described as having to do more with techniques of practice and not with concepts as the concepts,as those I defined.The concepts are publicly known.What is less well known is the method for taking advantage of the insight and power the concepts indicate are possible.thankstoyin
On 2 August 2010 21:20, <FSOrunmila@aol.com> wrote:Oro pa esi je (oro p'esi je). Kindly look for a good Yoruba dictionary or a Yoruba speaker to translate my response.Odumare a la e ni oju o, o ko ni ku si oko riro oyinbo o. Odumare ko ni je ki iran Yoruba (like yourself) ko ti ile ta, won ko si ni pa iran Yoruba re, ase.My best regards.In a message dated 8/2/2010 12:41:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time, toyin.adepoju@googlemail.com writes:1.I cannot read Yoruba.I dont consider fluency in Yoruba indispensable to a deep knowledge of the Orisa tradition.It would be very valuable,perhaps priceless,but not indispensable.Enough literature exists to educate one significantly.The tradition to a significant,though not a complete degree,is no longer dependent on oral methods for its survival.2.What I wrote was in English not Yoruba,so I dont see why you should insist on using Yoruba.I presume the books proudly listed at the bottom of your post before the last on this subject are written in English.I also presume the site you are directing me to is written in English.That implies you realise that Yoruba commands at best a minuscule demographic on a global scale compared to English,necessitating communication in English to reach a much broader audience.So why this sudden torrent of Yoruba when we are conducting a discussion in a different language? Or are you arguing that the Orisa tradition can only be communicated in Yoruba? That would be a contradiction because the orthography used in writing Yoruba was developed by the Euro-Americans whose contribution to Orisa studies you seem to despise.So,without these people,all that issues from being able to write Yoruba might not exist.The motto,even in linguistic and cultural nationalism,should be 'nothing in excess' lest one cut off one's nose to spite one's face.3.If you do not want to meet the challenge of pointing outa.Why you think my work is copied from another sourceb.The errors in my workc.The political agenda in my workThen you are in no position to make such criticism next time.Please, until you are ready to back up your accusations and in a language that is universally understood,of which English is much better positioned than Yoruba to fulfil that role, please dont make allegations about my writing.As it is I am not too surprised that you have produced no knowledge of yours in contradiction of my own.I am convinced that most likely you cannot substantiate any of your criticism of my essay on Yoruba/Orisa epistemology and metaphysics.I am not surprised that you cannot because of my confidence in the quality of my research.To challenge me appropriately,you are obliged to present your own knowledge in contradiction to my own.You have not done so. I doubt if you have such knowledge.The Orisa tradition is too rich for any group of people even the highly trained custodians of the tradition,the babalawo-masters of the esoteric knowledge of Ifa- to have a monopoly of valid knowledge about it.With reference to the spiritual dimension of the tradition, as a person not initiated into the tradition in the conventional sense,I stand by these statements by two spiritual masters:Jesus Christ: "The spirit bloweth where it listeth,and none knows whence it cometh and whither it goeth"."God is a spirit,and those who worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth".Joseph Ohomina,Bini babalawo: "The Odu are the power behind Ifa.They are spirits whose origins we do not know.We understand only small part of their significance.The Yoruba are the first to present a knowledge of them[ I doubt this] but the language of the Odu is not a human language".My study of the Orisa tradition combines practice and scholarship.My practice convinces me that I don't need anything more than the knowledge present in the publicly available literature to relate with the Orisa.A significant progress in Ifa can also be made through self study.The harvest is plenteous and the spirits are eager.Sooner or later,I will present my methods and their results publicly.As it is,since you criticised and practically condemned my work in public I am going to disseminate our communication publicly so that the public can follow the development of our discussion which began in public in the first place.Anyone who wants to make accusations about my work should be ready to defend their position,something you have been unable to do.ThanksToyin
On 2 August 2010 19:35, Iyalaje <fsorunmila@aol.com> wrote:Eni ti mo mo bi eni mo owo ni gbogbo awon oyinbo ti won nko iwe nipa esin abinibii wa ni ilu america nibi. Iyen ko lo mu mi ko nkan ti mo ko. E lo ko Ifa nitori wipe ibe ni e ti le ri okondoro oro ti a nso nipa re yi. Itumo "awo" yato die si bi falokun se gbe kale. Bakanna ni ori inu ati bee bee lo. Koda, e tun le se iwadi awon oro naa lenu awon agba awo, iyen awon Babalawo. Yoruba igbalode ti o gb'ode nisinyin le ma mo ekunrere gbogbo oro naa. Meaning, contact those who still speak the ancient version of our language; contacting people with YoruGlish will create more confusion. Please, visit ileorunmila.com as you may benefit from some of the valuable information therein. Reflections on the Wisdom of Ifa is also a good resource for your research, assuming you do not want to take the extra wahala of learning Ifa. Ire o.Sent from ileorunmila.com, your online Orisa Central Mall
From: toyin adepoju <toyin.adepoju@googlemail.com>Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 18:48:06 +0100To: <fsorunmila@aol.com>Subject: Re: [AfroCentrikWorld] ESOTERIC KNOWLEDGE AND POWER IN THE ORISA TRADITION, T...Thanks.
I have a phone but I am in England.
I will certainly read those books sooner or later but cant you outline what you think is the problem with the essay in your own words?
I think my reading and practice so far is sufficient to give me confidence in those definitions and would like to see other definitions that contradict them with justifications for those contradictions.
I am also interested in learning about the political agenda you see in the essay.
Thanks
ToyinOn 2 August 2010 15:57, Iyalaje <fsorunmila@aol.com> wrote:Is there a phoneline over which this issue can be fully explored? You may not know it, but there are errors in some of the definitions you posted. Also, there is a political agenda/undertones. Have you read Fundamentals of the Yoruba Religion, and Ede Awo (Orisa Yoruba Dictionary)? Try reading them for a start. Meanwhile, I await the information. If that fails, however, I will oblige you your request.
Eni eleni ko ni gba ise wa se o, ase. 909 886 6023, ileorunmila.com.
Chief FAMASent from ileorunmila.com, your online Orisa Central Mall
From: toyin adepoju <toyin.adepoju@googlemail.com>Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 14:06:54 +0100To: <FSOrunmila@aol.com>; <naijapolitics@yahoogroups.com>; nigerianworldforum<NIgerianWorldForum@yahoogroups.com>; Nidoa<nidoa@yahoogroups.com>; <naijaobserver@yahoogroups.com>; naijaelections<naijaelections@yahoogroups.com>; <AfroCentrikWorld@yahoogroups.com>Cc: usaafricadialogue<USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com>; WoleSoyinkaSociety<WoleSoyinkaSociety@yahoogroups.com>; Edo-nationality<edo-nationality@yahoogroups.com>; Odua<OmoOdua@yahoogroups.com>; Yoruba Affairs<yorubaaffairs@googlegroups.com>; abolo<tonbole@yahoo.com>; Iro Eweka<iro_eweka01@hotmail.com>Subject: Re: [AfroCentrikWorld] ESOTERIC KNOWLEDGE AND POWER IN THE ORISA TRADITION, T...Chief Fama,
I am just seeing this.
I hope you will respond to what I am writing now.
I am ready to appreciate misrepresentation of the Orisa tradition by myself if it can be proven.
1.You state there are errors in my summation of classical Yoruba/Orisa epistemology and cosmology. Please state what those errors are.
I have taken pains to make an exposition of key terms in this tradition. These terms are "Awo", "Ase", "Orí Inú and Ojú Inú", "Ille, Odu, Aje and Awon Iya Wa Osoronga".I want to know how what you know is different from what I have presented and why you think your perspective is accurate while mine is not, in those instances where you think I have presented errorsWe need to avoid the old cover of esoteric knowledge people use to avoid discussing these concepts
2.You describe my posts as copied.
I insist that you state the sources my work is copied from. I insist that you make a distinction between scholarly interpretation and copying. If you cannot make that distinction and prove that I copied what I wrote here I demand an apology from you. afis on the Nigerian online groups has made a similar claim but I have not taken him seriously because I get the impression he is not serious beceause he also claims to admire my work. As from now on, anyone who states that my work is copied has to prove it or apologise to me. If they dont apologise that will be taken as proof that they can not prove their claim.
3.On what grounds do you claim that this essay on the Orisa tradition is damaging to the tradition? The only rationale you provide is that I have used scholarship by people of Euro-American descent( I dont use the racial category "white" because nobody has "white" skin).Does not being Black mean that one cannot have authoritative knowledge on Black spiritualities? I disagree totally with that perspective.
There is nothing in any knowledge system or practice that cannot be learnt adequately by anyone from any race. All human practices represent variations on practices cultivated by various human groups across space and time.Ifa cosmology and epistemology, for example, can be fruitfully shown to correlate with, though it is not identical with, other practices in Asia and the West. In fact aspects of the global variations of the Orisa tradition are better understood through such intercultural comparisons. One area of that benefits from such inter-cultural comparison is the understanding of the feminine principle, in which the information from Nigeria suggests that its current level of development does not demonstrate the full blooded elaboration developed in Hinduism and Buddhism. The development of the feminine principle might be more pronounced in the African Diaspora but I wonder if it has an intellectual, philosophical tradition at the same level as the role of the feminine principle demonstrated in the relationship between Hinduism, Buddhism and Indian and related philosophies.
No spirituality in the history of the world has ever achieved a presence outside its country of origin without the wholehearted contributions of people from outside that country. In the process of such geographical spread through which that religion underwent adaptation Buddhism is much richer for going beyond India into China, Japan and Tibet and there undergoing variations that demonstrate the latent potential realized by the Buddha in his enlightenment at the foot of the tree in Bodh Gaya,India.That potential is even now being further developed in the distinctive characteristics being realized in the practice of Buddhism in the West.
The huge influence of Christianity on the world could not have been achieved if it had remained locked in Palestine and within the basic parameters represented by the example, of Jesus Christ, seminal as that remains. Examples can be given from Hinduism but I think the examples I have given are enough.
It can also be argued that no system of knowledge ever actualised its potential by localising itself within a particular paradigm and geography. What is evident as mathematics today is the ultimate result of mathematical developments from ancient civilisations, refined and further developed in the Arab world and given prominence and further development in Europe. The same for science as a development of ideas that can ultimately be traced to Egypt.
To insist that only Black people are qualified to speak authoritatively on Africana religions and systems of thought is not only ahistorical-since some of the best contributors to this field are Euro-American but represents backwardness for anyone who nurtures that view.The world will not wait for such a person but leave the person behind.
As it is, in my view, any comprehensive study of the Orisa tradition that excludes the monumental achievement of Susanne Wenger,whose work derives from 50 years living in Yorubaland,is incomplete. Yet Wenger is Austrian and her ideas a composite of Orisa cosmology,Buddhism, Taoism, Jungian psychology and her personal experience.
In my reading so far,I find Wenger,David Wilson also known as Awo Falokun Fatumbi and Wole Soyinka the most insightful in terms of the need to reinterpret the Orisa tradition in terms of an individual and modern consciousness. I am beginning to discover something similar with Judith Gleason.
Of these writers I have mentioned only Soyinka is black. He is also Yoruba.Soyinka's works based as they are on Orisa cosmology, could not be so powerful without his immersion in a global traditions of thought and expression the vitality of which is very visible in all his work.
You dont seem to have taken note that good number of the sources I quoted are Yoruba,including Babatunde Lawal and Rowland Abidoun.One can on and name other classical Yoruba writers in the field.Yet they and all others on this filed are writing about tradition that was created by people who did not have a dynamic and widespread writing system so they have had to learn these people's language and writing technology to explain their own traditions. You who write this rejoinder to my essay are doing so in English.Without the presence of western civilisation,how would the Yoruba orthography you use in your brief strechj of Yoruba in that post have been constructed?
4.You state that I am writing from a Euro-American(my translation of the term "white" which you characterise as "funfun". What gives you that impression? If I want to present the perspective of a Euro--American on the Orisa tradition such as David Wilson,Falokun Fatumnbi,whose work I consider sublime, then it would be legitimate effort as every one has a right to an opinion that is available for study as the Orisa tradition is to everyone.
This perspective here is my point of view developed through practice and study. No one can build a city alone. Not to talk of a universe.Bimsbergen might be correct that Ifa is a development from Arabic sources elaborated upon by Yoruba people. The key here is the idea of building on what inspires one.The Orisa tradition represents a universe of possibilities that no race on its own or people limited to a geographical focus can develop to its full possibilities.
5.Your condemnation reminds me of a regrettably inconclusive debate I had on an online group in which some people condemned evetything but the perspectives on the Orisa tradition developed by pure babalawo,untouched by Western education if I understood well their perspectives. Yet they could not make any comparison of such insights in contrast to those they are condemning because they had not encountered this mythic pure knowledge. Your claims remind me of that.
I want to know what wonderful knowledge you have that leads you to condemn my summation of classical Yoruba/Orisa epistemology and metaphysics. I have taken pains to make a summary of key terms in this tradition.These terms are "Awo", "Ase", "Orí Inú and Ojú Inú", "Ille, Odu, Aje and Awon Iya Wa Osoronga"
I urgently await your revelations about the inadequacy of my summations. I will not accept the old idea of the cover of esoteric knowledge people use to avoid discussing these concepts
Thanks
Eagerly waiting
Toyin Adepoju
On 25 July 2010 05:27, <FSOrunmila@aol.com> wrote:Please, Toyin Adepoju, do not damage Orisa tradition any more than it has been damaged. What you posted below has some flaws. Moreoever, the article was written from a white's perspective. Eniyan dudu should stop going to the oyinbos for the history of their Dudu heritage. That is exactly what you are doing by your copied posts. It is shameful. Kindly, stop it. If you cannot do the research yourself, as a Dudu from the Dudu Continent, then, stop promoting what has been written by funfun and with funfun's yeast generously added to it. Please, please, and please, stop the insult. Insult? Yes, insult. You should be teaching your own Dudu heritage, and teach it correctly, too, as opposed to learning about your own heritage through a half-baked truth from a funfun person.Odumare ko ni je ki iran Oduduwa pare o, ase. Ko si ni je ki a lo si ile iwe oyinbo lati ko nipa orirun Oduduwa--o di eewo.Oro mi ko ju bayii lo.Iyalaje.In a message dated 7/24/2010 8:56:23 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, toyin.adepoju@googlemail.com writes:
Please forgive any multiple postings.The system returned some earlier posts as undeliverable.
<p class="MsoNESOTERIC KNOWLEDGE AND POWER IN THE ORISA TRADITION
THE CONCEPT OF AJE AND ITS RELATIONSHIP TO WITCHCRAFT
Toyin Adepoju
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