Saturday, August 1, 2015

Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Ancient Egyptian Pharaohs related to Ugandans?

hi ogugua
i am dubious that the scholars to whom you are imputing opinions about dubious accomplishments in africa are serious scholars. i am not talking about the debate between bernal and the greek classicists, which is not a question of african accomplishments, but of influences--a valid debate, where bernal held his own.
as far as blowbacks being needed, that is true on the level of ideology and popular discourse, but not scholarship.
if i am wrong, then i'd like to know who these serious scholars you are. after spending decades in african studies, i find quite the opposite of what you cite: african scholars, respected, important figures, have devoted their lives to doing exactly the opposite of what you write. that is, they study, learn about, inquire into, interpret, become expert in, learn to love and disseminate knowledge about africa, not present negative views blithely so as to advance eurocentric agendas.
you write, ogogua, that i know there are scholars whose stock-in-trade is denigration of all that is not native to their race. i am not lying when i say i don't know a single person like that. (i'm not that old)--i;d have to have lived 100 years to be of such a generation. the scholars i know (primarily  literature, cinema people) are exactly the opposite. they love and admire african accomplishments--why else devote your life to it? who would publish a book, nowadays, that was racist, that advanced white over black values in african studies? i cannot imagine such a thing.
what am i missing here? the popular culture is riven with racism, to be sure. but the academy is just the opposite.
ogugua, i don't state this to refute your claim, but as an honest question: where do you see this racist perspective in the scholarship? if i am naive, and don't see it, i am certainly willing to learn. perhaps in other disciplines than my own?
lastly, to return to blowbacks: of course, i couldn't agree more...on the level of the popular press, films, novels, cultural expression, confederate flag people exist, govern, dominate the republican party, have constituents. we are inundated with that. but in the circles of the academy, honestly, i can't think of an historical, literary, cinema scholar whom we could attribute such racist values to.
ken

On 8/1/15 2:25 AM, Anunoby, Ogugua wrote:

There are scholars- Western scholars I might add, who seem to have a problem with associating great, positive moments, accomplishments, and events of history with Black Africa.  The ethnicity of ancient Egyptians should not be a matter of great moment if not for the fact that there are scholars, Western scholars I might add, who go to great lengths to argue that the ancient Egyptians were not Black Africans. Their motivation seems to be that the civilization they created was so advanced and outstanding for its time, that they could not be Black Africans. It does not matter to them for example, that their scholarship may be false and grossly misleading.

Remember the trouble many scholars in the Western World continue to take, streaming discordant shreds of evidence, in their endeavor to convince the world that Cleopatra was Greek and not Egyptian? For them, Cleopatra was too beautiful and smart to be Egyptian- African. Should her ethnicity matter as much as they make it out to be? I do not think so.  Her role in history after all was set, not by her ethnicity but her beauty and guile. She is said to be a beautiful, sophisticated, manipulative charmer. Those attributes are not exclusive to Greeks? All through time, historical characters (women) of similar beauty and guile, have existed in all parts of the world dominated by men. They continue to exist.  

Blowbacks are necessary to counter the misinformation and misrepresentations of history. It is important to report history correctly. If there was no question, an answer would not follow. Gloria's posting, whether or not it is historical and/or ideological, serves this purpose. It is even more so if it is the correct version of history which it might be. She is helping to counter Western historian or anthropologist who pleasure in  characterize the ancient Egyptians (of the Pharaohs) as not being Black Africans.

Ken must know that there are scholars- Western scholars for the most part  whose stock-in-trade is the denigration of all that is not native to their race as they narrowly define it. One wishes that all scholar have a more enlightened view of history, life, and our common humanity which view Ken seems to me to have. One would expect them to know that setting people needlessly apart by race especially (no one chooses their race by the way), has done more harm than good. Yes it has, if facts and the truth matter. That enterprise is one that continues to be successful in helping to make the world a worse place than it needs to be, for all who inhabit her.

 

oa

 

oa

 

From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com [mailto:usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of kenneth harrow
Sent: Friday, July 31, 2015 8:56 AM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Ancient Egyptian Pharaohs related to Ugandans?

 

there are many other questions. are they historical? ideological? when gloria asserts that egyptians were black africans, what does that mean? where on the line that carries people across the sahara does black fade into white? where is the deciding line? are we to measure noses again? i've seen berber families with lighter skinned and darker skinned siblings, as indeed exists throughout the entire sahel. what does that really mean? when was there not mixing of peoples?
and when egypt is seen as the source of civilization, do we mean civilization as in the english meaning, which carries roman roots? i always thought writing, big buildings, large governments were european definitions of civilization, leaving poor old Umuofia, Things Fall Apart, out in the rain to be beaten on by european values.
when the palm oil of words in achebe's texts is eaten, is that not some other kind of artifact of "civilization" that bears all the sophistication of aristotelian thought?
it isn't a question of who built the biggest structures, but rather, who is defining the criteria for "civilization." is it such a colonial notion, can't we just throw it out and start on better footing. let's start with Camara Laye's L'Enfant noir. there's lots of civilization there, far from the coast.

i don't buy the afrocentrist need to find authentic origins, much less to locate them in egypt.
lastly, if egyptians came from black africa, who didn't? didn't we all originate somewhere around the horn, many tens of thousands of years ago? who is the outsider to this african heritage?
ken (ok, i am not a historian; i read novels and watch movies....)

On 7/31/15 2:58 PM, awori wrote:

Not being a historian of any kind---I would not hazard to give a factual response to the views below. I however would like to raise issues that the author and others could consider. When you refer to ancient Egypt---what exactly do you mean? What was ancient ancient Nubia---what distinguishes ancient Nubia from the so called ancient Egypt?  Finally according to archaeological and scientific findings---what was the progression of the Nubia/Egyptian civilizations---was it from the source of the Nile--Northwards or the other way round? Answers to these questions might (probably) help answer some of the quetion.  

Awori   

On Monday, July 27, 2015 at 8:38:41 AM UTC+3, Chambi Chachage wrote:

Gloria Emeagwali et al., do you agree with Lawrence Mbogoni below?

 


From: "'Mbogoni, Lawrence' mbog...@wpunj.edu [Wanazuoni]" <Wana...@yahoogroups.com>
To: "Wana...@yahoogroups.com" <Wana...@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, July 27, 2015 12:29 AM
Subject: RE: [Wanazuoni] Ancient Egyptian Pharaohs related to Ugandans?

 

 

Wanazuoni,

 

I am joining this dialogue rather late. But as a historian of Africa I feel bound to answer Mr. Makakala's concerns about the relationship of ancient Egypt/Nubia and the rest of Africa. Makakala begins with the view that:  "the current North Africa has been shaped mainly by forces which are foreign to the continent. Hence, the fact that the North has produced many scholars for centuries has more to do with the cultures that influenced it rather than [the rest of] Africa." The observation is true to a certain extent. For centuries ancient Egypt was a part of the Mediterranean world and Egypt influenced at the same time it was itself influenced parts of this region especially what is today Israel/Palestine and Greece. Ancient Egypt was an imperial power whose influence extended to the southern fringes of Assyria. Some evidence even suggests that one of the pharaohs conquered and briefly ruled ancient Greece. However, ancient Egypt's imperial endeavors beyond Nubia were thwarted partly by geographical factors and partly by resistance especially along the Red Sea toward Puntland (northern Somalia). Evidently, had ancient Egypt's imperial endeavors succeeded its influence would have been far afield south of Nubia. That said, as part of the Mediterranean world Egypt learnt as it taught neighboring peoples many things. Alexandria was for centuries a center of learning in the region that attracted especially ancient Greek scholars. Herodotus, reputed to be the father of history, deemed it necessary to visit Egypt and left us a very interesting account of his experience of the people and their achievements. In short, scholarly achievements in Egypt and North Africa were/are not just the result of influences from other cultures but are also indigenous to ancient Egypt.

 

Makakala wonders how ancient Egypt and Nubia could have developed so far ahead while none of that development did not leak to the rest of the continent. My response is had ancient Egypt's imperial endeavors southward succeeded its influences would have extended beyond Nubia. But even where Egyptian imperialism was extended, such as in the Levant, there is very little in evidence about Egyptian achievements. There are no pyramids in Lebanon, Israel or Jordan although these areas were once subject to Egyptian imperialism. As for evidence of permanent buildings from anywhere else in Africa comparable to Egypt's there is none except the stone citadels of ancient Zimbabwe. But by permanent buildings I believe Makakala is referring to the Egyptian pyramids. However, most Egyptians built and resided in mud structures. The three pyramids we see today were presumably funerary structures although most if not all pharaohs were buried in underground tombs (Pharaoh Cheops, the builder of the biggest of the threes was not even buried in it).

 

Furthermore, Makakala queries why Africa is considered the exception when it comes to diversity characteristic of Europe and Asia. I wonder who is guilty of his accusation since historians of Africa have highlighted its diversity in peoples, cultures, languages, climates, forms of worship, lifestyles, etc. for quite a while now. Any introductory text about Africa begins with its geographical, cultural, linguistic, and ethnic/racial diversities (Cf. textbooks by Robert July; Robert Collins). No historian worth the name would insist Africa to be uniform.

 

Moreover, I find it interesting that Makakala equates sedentary life with permanent buildings. Rather, it is the rise of agriculture that was the genesis of permanent human settlements not just in Africa but elsewhere in the world. Tending to crops required people to stay put in one place unlike tending to livestock, hence the difference between agricultural and pastoralist societies. Be that as it may, urbanization was not only unique to ancient Egypt on the continent. For an historical account of the process of urbanization in Africa south of the Sahara Makakala can refer to Catherine Vidrovitch's book entitled *Urbanization in Africa.*

Finally, it is puzzling how Makakala equates scripts (i.e. the written word) with sharing of knowledge, skills and innovations and hence development. The privileging of the written word and hence written records as the only sources of history was conclusively debunked by Jan Vansina in his book entitled *The Oral Tradion.* That said, if having a written language is that important, how does one explain the lack of development and political vulnerability of Arabs and the Chinese who, like the Africans, were easily conquered by Europeans despite having written languages of their own?

 

Kila la kheri.

 

Mbogoni

 

__,_._,__

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USA Africa Dialogue Series - Today's Quote

On Saturday 8th August, 2015, I would be 52 years old. It would be 52 years of tranversing citizenships; Nigerian, Biafran and back to Nigerian, with institutionalized denial of basic citizens' rights thrown into the mix.

CAO.

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Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Corruption Investigations

The point is not who is the worse criminal.

The point is that all Nigerians seek a reorientation of the nation, not the simple prosecution of anyone.

Otherwise we shall return to the status quo in no time.

So, those who claim go seek to reorient this nation should probe

themselves
their allies in the immediate past and present admin
their opponents in  the immediate past admin
and at the very least, the most flagrant cases in previous admins before the last one.

Then we shall know that the day of uhuru has come.

Until then, its another game of musical chairs.

We have been there before.

Each coup began with claims that the previous govt was overthrown bcs of corruption and other inadequacies, then the so called cleansers fill their mouths with loot before they are forced to leave.

Finally, Buhari's victory is only partially  equal to the verdict of 'most `Nigerians'.

Buhari's victory represents votes from the Muslim North who are understood to always vote fellow Hausa/Fulani Muslims, an orientation heightened by the 'power must return to the North cry' active since GEJ's swearing in in 2011, and the frustrations created by the Boko Haram escalation since 2011, which was the core of opposition to GEJ's govt and which Buhari and APC have manipulated.

The SW voted for Buhari bcs their leadership needed a door into the centre of power so as to escape decades of being locked into their region with little national reach and invested a VP in the race, an act that was central to garnering votes from the region.

All other regions are solidly anti-APC and the Buhari propaganda.

The SW branch of the APC coalition constitutes the same people who earlier castigated Buhari in 2008 for declaring Abacha was not corrupt even as Abacha's  massive loot was being returned to Nigeria as well as castigating ex military head of state Gen. Abdulsalami for declaring that past  leaders should not be probed.

The then AC spokesman Lai Muhammed, who made this condemnation on behalf of the AC, is the spokesman of APC and I dont know him to even allude to that incident from when his party and Buhari's then CPC were opposed.

Friends of convenience.

Thanks

toyin



On 1 August 2015 at 19:15, Segun Ogungbemi <seguno2013@gmail.com> wrote:
Any probe that worths its salt must be supported with concrete evidence. I mean concrete evidence that is not based on assumptions or ethnic considerations.  
Any Nigerian including those in the diaspora who have concrete and verifiable proofs can go to court in Nigeria and press for prosecution without waiting on Buhari administration. We all have the rights to collectively fight corruption. We need to chase the  recalcitrant goat of corruption out of the farm yard. 
If anyone is serious about digging to the rock bottom of corruption since 1960 let him do so through the judicial system. It is his right. So, Toyin, Ikhide and others can lead the team. 
Best of luck. 
Prof. Segun Ogungbemi

On Aug 1, 2015, at 10:19 AM, "'Ikhide' via USA Africa Dialogue Series" <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> wrote:

You will notice how the author of that fiction conveniently forgot the mother of all looters - Olusegun Obasanjo, the thief hiding in plain view, the kleptomaniac that gave us Yar'Adua and GEJ. When I tell you that 99.9% of Nigerian intellectuals are complicit in the Shane playing out today, you think I am mad. How can we in good conscience exempt Obasanjo from a probe? How can? Nonsense. 
- Ikhide

On Aug 1, 2015, at 3:56 AM, Oluwatoyin Adepoju <toyinkaidara@gmail.com> wrote:

Pure fiction :

'the scale of looting under GEJ beggars belief. It trumped even the lootocracy of Abacha.'

Abolaji Adekeye



Can you point us to any significant evidence that justifies this claim?

A true crusader for justice who wants to reset the direction of the nation would probe himself and his allies.

Not probe only his opponents- wuru wuru, wayo [Nigerian pidgin English for cunning and obfuscation] govt style.

Were the Watergate investigations not carried out in US President Nixon's administration, leading to his resignation?

Was the Monica Lewiskly scandal not investigated in US President Bill Clinton's admin, leading to Clinton's  impeachment?

So, why must the so called anti-corruption crusader in Nigeria investigate his opponents but not himself and his allies in the past and present administrations, talk less his allies in older administrations described as redefining on a monumental scale   public theft in Nigeria?

thanks

toyin









On 31 July 2015 at 19:01, Abolaji Adekeye <blargeo.dekeye@gmail.com> wrote:
The pettifogging and specious arguments deployed by People like
Oluwatoyin and other Jonathadeens is amusing. They  would have us
believe that Goodjo's administration is being persecuted. They would
also have us believe that Goodjo is corruption free and even if his
goat nibbled on some tubers of yam from the communal barn, it should
be overlooked because goats from other seasons are equally guilty of
"Yamming"

They tell us that GEJ deployed "te ki ina loji" to prevent corruption.
A fat lot of good that technology did to prevent the pension scam,
Nimasa's and NNPC's ! These advocates of corruption want PMB to
declare an amnesty on a corrupt administration, overlook all and just
deploy that supreme tech that worked so well under their principal.
Hear! Hear!!

"Thirdly, GEJ's approach to corruption is the more
honest approach of
prevention through financial restructuring rather than
Buhari's dishonest
witch-hunting strategy"

This is chicanery taken to an olympian height of farce. Some people
wouldn't see truth if it pokes them in the eye. Yes, the history of
Nigeria is that of serial heists by successive governments but the
scale of looting under GEJ beggars belief. It trumped even the
lootocracy of Abacha.

Call it whatever you like; persecution, witch hunt, scape goatism. One
thing is certain, ex prez Goodluck has nothing to fear if he has done
nothing to warrant fear. Let the probe commence from his
administration but shouldn't terminate there is what I advocate.

On 7/31/15, Oluwatoyin Adepoju <toyinkaidara@gmail.com> wrote:
> *EDITED-*
>
> First, Buhari says he will probe only GEJ.
> So, your claim, Kadiri, that 'Buhari should start clearing the log of
> corruption trees from the top' is different from Buhari's agenda.
> Secondly, I am stating that Buhari is not morally qualified to probe anyone
> bcs Buhari and his allies have corruption, treason and other charges to
> answer.
> I have given a list of such corruption and treason charges relating to
> Buhari and his allies as evident from the last election cycle, the last
> administration and the current one.
> So, don't bother continuing with your effort to generate ridicule by going
> into the distant past.
> Aregbesola, Amaechi, Tinubu, El Rufai, Buhari and his campaign financing,
> Shettima and the Chibok incident are all cases live at the present moment
> as I demonstrate in my earlier post.
> We dont need to return to the beginning of the world to examine what is in
> front of our eyes.
> Thirdly, GEJ's approach to corruption is the more honest approach of
> prevention through financial restructuring rather than Buhari's dishonest
> witch-hunting strategy as is demonstrated in these essays :
>
> "Blocking Corruption Through Technology: Nigeria's IPPIS and IPSAS- Method
> and Supervision by Isuph JT and Chioma Mbakwe Ojukwu
> <https://www.facebook.com/notes/oluwatoyin-vincent-adepoju/blocking-corruption-through-technology-nigerias-ippis-and-ipsas-method-and-super/10152612253744103>"
>
> "7 Impressive Ways President Jonathan Fought Corruption (No. 3 Will Make
> You Scream
> <https://www.facebook.com/notes/oluwatoyin-vincent-adepoju/7-impressive-ways-president-jonathan-fought-corruption-no-3-will-make-you-scream/10152621775954103>)
> "
> summing up the GEJ govts' understanding of the anti-corruption struggle as
> more of a comprehensive restructuring of the entire socio-economic
> landscape than the sloganeering of fighting monetary corruption which is
> all Buhari has to offer, a contrast in perspectives summed up by Vincent
> Unachukwu
> <https://www.facebook.com/notes/oluwatoyin-vincent-adepoju/leadership-as-structural-thinking-and-action-by-vincent-unachukwu/10152624307539103>
> .
> Finally, I have concluded that the country needs to be renegotiated bcs it
> has no unifying ethos.
> Any other initiative that claims to restructure Nigeria's ultimate
> direction is either a waste of time or sheer dishonesty or both.
> The culture of going backward nationally in Nigeria, a symptom of the need
> to renegotiate the nation, is demonstrated by the election to the nation's
> highest office of a man who could not present even a primary school
> certificate as his educational qualification to contest for office,
> who,when the pressure became deafening, had to call a press conference to
> make claims he could not verify about the whereabouts of his secondary
> school certificate, demonstrating conclusively that his rising to the rank
> of general or even the terms on which he entered the Nigerian army are
> questionable at best, a quota President of questionable education in a
> country where it is unthinkable for a Presidential candidate from any
> region other than the Muslim North to show up with anything less than a
> first degree, in a world where sophisticated education is at a premium in
> all aspects of public life on account of the complexity of modern
> civilisation.
> This fraud was elected based on sentiments deriving partly from his
> military background yet the best he has done about the Boko Haram Islamic
> terrorism ravaging the North is to beg the the terrorists to negotiate.
> Not suprising bcs he has repeatedly identified with the terrorists  by
> arguing
> they should not be combated
> <http://nationalmirroronline.net/new/clampdown-on-boko-haram-injustice-against-north-buhari/>
> and that war agst them is agst the North
> <http://www.thisdaylive.com/articles/buhari-military-offensive-against-boko-haram-anti-north/149256/>.
>
> So, what remains- the so called fighter will not fight.
> We are faced with the complexities of govt.
> He has made himself into a civilian dictator who rules alone, under the
> pretext of not finding honest people to appoint.
> By the time he appoints the staff to run the govt as is vital in a
> democratic system, he would have consolidated his dictatorial hold, leaving
> ashes in the mouths of Nigerians, feeding aborted visions to those calling
> for change by appointing the whitewashed dictator.
> thanks
> toyin
>
> On 31 July 2015 at 13:53, Oluwatoyin Adepoju <toyinkaidara@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> First, Buhari says he will probe only GEJ.
>>
>> So, your claim, Kadiri,  that 'Buhari should start clearing the log of
>> corruption trees from the top' is diferent from Buhari's agenda.
>>
>> Secondly, I am stating that Buhari is not morally qualified to probe
>> anyone bcs Buhari and his allies have corruption, treason and other
>>  charges to answer.
>>
>> I have given a list of such  coruption and treason  charges relating to
>> Buhari and his  allies as evident from the last election cycle, the last
>> administration and the current one.
>>
>> So, dont bother continuing  with your effort to generate ridicule by
>> going
>> into the distant past.
>>
>> Aregbesola, Amaechi, Tinubu, El Rufai, Buhari and his campaign financing,
>> Shettima and the Chibok  incident are all cases live at the present
>> moment
>> as I demonstrate ion my ealier post.
>>
>> We dont need to return to the beginning  of the world to examine what is
>> in front of our eyes.
>>
>> Thirdly, GEJ's approach to corruption is the more honest aproach of
>> prevention through financical restructuring rather than Buhari's
>> dishonest
>>  witch-hunting strategy as is  demonstrated in these essays :
>>
>> "Blocking Corruption Through Technology: Nigeria's IPPIS and IPSAS-
>> Method and Supervision by Isuph JT and Chioma Mbakwe Ojukwu
>> <https://www.facebook.com/notes/oluwatoyin-vincent-adepoju/blocking-corruption-through-technology-nigerias-ippis-and-ipsas-method-and-super/10152612253744103>"
>>
>>
>> "7 Impressive Ways President Jonathan Fought Corruption (No. 3 Will Make
>> You Scream
>> <https://www.facebook.com/notes/oluwatoyin-vincent-adepoju/7-impressive-ways-president-jonathan-fought-corruption-no-3-will-make-you-scream/10152621775954103>)
>> "
>>
>> summing up the GEJ govs understanding of the anti-corruption struggle as
>> more of a comprehensive restructuring of the entire socio-economic
>> landscape than the sloganeering  of fighting monetary corruption which is
>> all Buhari has to offer, a contrast in perscetives summed up by Vincent
>> Unachukwu
>> <https://www.facebook.com/notes/oluwatoyin-vincent-adepoju/leadership-as-structural-thinking-and-action-by-vincent-unachukwu/10152624307539103>
>> .
>>
>> Finally, I have concluded that the country needs to be renegotiated bcs
>> it
>> has no unfying ethos.
>>
>> Any other initiative that claims to restructure Nigeria's  ultimate
>> direction is either a waste of time or sheer dishonesty or both.
>>
>> The culture of going backward nationally in Nigeria, a symptom of the
>> need
>> to renegotiate the nation, is demonstrated by the election to the
>> nation's
>> higest office of a man who could not present even a primary school
>> certificate as his educational qualification to contest for office,
>> who,when the pressure became deafening,  had to call a press conference
>> to
>> make claims he could not verify about the whereabouts of his secondary
>> school certificate, demonstrating conclusively that his rising to the
>> rank
>> of general or even the terms on which he entered the  Nigerian army are
>> questionable at best, a quota President of questionable education in a
>> country where it is unthinkable  for a Presidential candidate from any
>> region other than the Muslim North to show up with anything less than a
>> first degree, in a world where sophisticated  education is at a premuim
>> in
>> all aspects of public life on account of the complexity of modern
>> civilisation.
>>
>> This fraud was elected based on sentiments deriving partly from his
>> military background yet the best he has done about the Boko Haram Islamic
>> terrorism ra

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