| "multi-ethnic nationalities are doable in contemporary time" - Dr Igietseme I agree totally. Where we part ways is the method. I believe it should be by consent where all willing parts agree to some negotiated basic principles to bring the union or association into effect. These principles will then be enshrined in the constitution under which the association or union will exist. The consent of the different parts can be obtained through a referendum. That's how it should be done "in contemporary time". Adeniba Adepoyigi Australia
--- On Thu, 21/10/10, Igietseme, Joseph (CDC/OID/NCPDCID) <jbi8@cdc.gov> wrote:
From: Igietseme, Joseph (CDC/OID/NCPDCID) <jbi8@cdc.gov>
Subject: NigerianID | RE: BUCHANAN: Tribalism Returns to Europe
To: "Adeniba Adepoyigi" <adenibaadepoyigi@yahoo.com.au>, NigerianID@yahoogroups.com
Cc: naijapolitics@yahoogroups.com, afenmai@yahoogroups.com, nigerianid@yahoogroups.com, edo-nationality@yahoogroups.com, usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
Received: Thursday, 21 October, 2010, 12:57 AM
Adeniba Adepoyigi: Has the creation of the modern Nigerian Nation prevented a Yoruba from practicing his/her Yoruba cultures; or an Edo, Hausa, Fulani, Ndiigbo, Ijaw, Efik, Tiv etc? The answer is NO! The POINT some of us are missing is that the sacrosanctity of a nation has to be maintained in a heterogenous or multi-ethnic nation, just as it is in an ethnic nation. Except some of us believe that multi-ethnic nations are impossible or impracticable in the world. This is where I disagree; multi-ethnic nationalities are doable in contemporary time; the few or episodic zenophobic unrest we have seen in some places are not sufficient to decry multi-ethnic national arrangements in Nigeria. Besides, Human Beings forge multi-ethnic nations; Nigerians are human beings in a modern world. The challenge in upon us to deliver. We cant continue to exist as a fledging society without a clear direction. If the United States and Canada can become nations harboring more than thrice the ethnic groups in Nigeria, Nigeria should be. We need to remain focused, learn to obey existing rules even while advocating changes, and commit to the progress of the nation State, putting the national interest in the rightful forefront rather than working against it using antipathic ethnic interests. My-ethnic-this, my-ethnic-that jingoism is causing us too much distraction in Nigeria. Take care. JUI
From: NigerianID@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Adeniba Adepoyigi
Sent: Wed 20-Oct-10 2:01 AM
To: NigerianID@yahoogroups.com
Subject: NigerianID | Re: BUCHANAN: Tribalism Returns to Europe
| "The United States and Canada are about the only two nations that talk of "multi-culturalism" with some seriousness (and maybe Brazil) - but for purely historical and pragmatic reasons! They are among the few nations founded on someone else's lands, and where they did not quite succeed in entirely wiping out the original owners of the land, and where they also needed the labor of Outsiders - foremost those of African slaves and Chinese coolies - to develop" - Dr Ojo
And even then, multiculturalism, at least in Australia here, has to be couched in an overall national policy of: "you can engage in your original cultural practices as long as those practices do not offend against the dominant culture". Many Africans live in these countries with their eyes shut and rarely see or understand what goes on. It is a shame really. Just to add a little to the points you have eloquently made Sir. Adeniba Adepoyigi Australia
--- On Wed, 20/10/10, Adeniran Adeboye <aadeboye@mac.com> wrote:
From: Adeniran Adeboye <aadeboye@mac.com>
Subject: Re: BUCHANAN: Tribalism Returns to Europe
To: "Igietseme, Joseph (CDC/OID/NCPDCID)" <jbi8@cdc.gov>
Cc: naijaintellects@googlegroups.com, nigerianid@yahoogroups.com, usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com, afenmai@yahoogroups.com, naijapolitics@yahoogroups.com, nigerianworldforum@yahoogroups.com, itna@mail.ccs-africa.co.za, OKOJIEPAUL@aol.com, "Bobson Arigbe" <BARIGBE@DHS.NYC.GOV>, "Kwabena Akurang-Parry" <KAParr@ship.edu>, "Ola Kassim" <OlaKassimMD@aol.com>, "Akinbode Akinola" <aakin98102@yahoo.com>, "Abraham Madu" <abraham.madu@yahoo.com>, "Adebayo Adejuwon" <adeadejuwon@yahoo.com>, "Adeniba Adepoyigi" <adenibaadepoyigi@yahoo.com.au>, "Bimbola Adelakun" <adunnibabe@yahoo.com>, "Mobolaji Aluko" <alukome@gmail.com>, "Tony Agbali" <attahagbl@yahoo.com>, "Emmanuel Babatunde" <babemman2000@gmail.com>, "Rufus Orindare" <batokkinc@att.net>, "Gloria (History) Emeagwali" <emeagwali@mail.ccsu.edu>, "Olu Ojedokun" <employlawone@aol.com>, "Ede Amatorisero" <esulaalu@hotmail.com>, "Farooq Kperogi" <farooqkperogi@gmail.com>, "Ibukunolu Babajide" <ibk@usa.net>, "Kay Odunaro" <kayodunaro@yahoo.ie>, "Kennedy Emetulu" <kemetulu@yahoo.co.uk>, "Nnanna Agomoh" <mnagomoh@yahoo.com>, "Oderaigbo" <odera.igbo@yahoo.ca>, "Odidere Afis" <odidere2001@yahoo.com>, "Olushola Fashedemi" <ofashedemi@yahoo.com>, "Olugbenga Oladokun" <oladokun@ix.netcom.com>, "Iyalaje Fama" <owonrinsogbe@hotamil.com>, "Pius Adesanmi" <piusadesanmi@yahoo.com>, "Dominic Ogbonna" <summadom@gmail.com>, "Dele Olawole" <theoracle@africaservice.com>, "Tina Iyare" <tinaiigho@yahoo.com>, "Joe Attueyi" <topcrestt@yahoo.com>, "Tunji Alapini" <tunjialapini@yahoo.com>, "Amauche Ude" <udeamauche@yahoo.com>, "Vincent Modebelu" <vin_modebelu@yahoo.com>, "Wharf Snake" <wharfsnake@yahoo.com>, "Chris Odetunde" <yemison2@aol.com>, NaijaObserver@yahoogroups.com
Received: Wednesday, 20 October, 2010, 3:31 PM
Brother Joe I,
You seem to address my question below rather peripherally. The basis of the SATIRE has always been with us in varying intensity. You wrote:
This is not a Black versus white issues or a strictly ethnic phenomenon; there are serious religious and economic issues that would trump any narrow ethnic view of this reaction in Europe; when critically evaluated,
One can grant you that and then ask whether such situation elsewhere do no not equally have the components of religion and economic concerns which nevertheless gain outlet in ethnic terms.
it is obvious that the rising bigotry and zenophobia (which Buchanan has titled narrowly as tribalism) is laced by misdirected impulsive reactions to economic hardships and competition for the limited resources available in the society at this time. If one chooses to accept your judgment of the situation here, then my original question below comes in more forcefully: Have human beings really matured enough to work with rather than against real differences? A people who have learnt to work with differences would not readily succumb to "misdirected impulsive reactions to economic hardships and competition for the limited resources available in the society" at any time, especially if those reactions end up being ethnically targeted.
After all, these people have been accommodated or tolerated all this while.
In the same country, Germany, Jews had been accommodated or tolerated for centuries before the holocaust. Yet "serious religious and economic issues" eventually pointed them to ethnic cleansing. Have you forgotten?
Frankly, I dont read anything beyond the natural effervescence evoked by economic harship that has been known since antiquity to find easy target with minorities, immigrants and the disadvantage in the society. And isn't that the point of this discourse or is it materially unimportant that such folks have been targets since antiquity? Where then is today's claim to "civilization", "enlightenment" and your version of modern nationhood?
More importantly, for some of us to hide under this obvious satire and a call to reasoning by Pat Buchanan, to fan the signature Nigerian ethnic jingoism is disingenous and pitiful! This is my candid opinion on this issue. This is really not much of a blow, let alone a low blow. Not only does this item demonstrate that we need to avoid using colored glasses and painting rosy pictures about the everyday people of other lands, it also alerts us to be wise in our social and political designs. These other peoples are not any more accommodating of differences than the Africans. When their governments have been able to bring material resources from all over the world to create a level of comfort for them, they have been able to allow themselves a degree of tolerance of differences the which disappears at the very first sign of economic hardship. The frequency of inter-tribal wars in the European peninsula over the past 500 years should tell us something about the old world. It is no surprise that they were able to create only those pocket-size monolingual, monocultural nations which they still guard jealously. "Signature Nigerian ethnic jingoism" has not been any more virulent than signature European ethnic jingoism. "Signature refusal" to learn from the lessons of history could doom us to repeat all of the mistakes. There is absolutely nothing disingeneous or pitiful about asking Nigeria to re-create itself in the true images of its components. That would be some kind of insurance against "misdirected impulsive reactions" the like of which Nigeria has been experiencing since 1953.
Cheers,
Adeniran Adeboye
On Oct 19, 2010, at 11:11 PM, Igietseme, Joseph (CDC/OID/NCPDCID) wrote: Isnt it clear that Pat Buchanan's write-up is SATIRE of the sad times in Europe? This is not a Black versus white issues or a strictly ethnic phenomenon; there are serious religious and economic issues that would trump any narrow ethnic view of this reaction in Europe; when critically evaluated, it is obvious that the rising bigotry and zenophobia (which Buchanan has titled narrowly as tribalism) is laced by misdirected impulsive reactions to economic hardships and competition for the limited resources available in the society at this time. After all, these people have been accommodated or tolerated all this while. Frankly, I dont read anything beyond the natural effervescence evoked by economic harship that has been known since antiquity to find easy target with minorities, immigrants and the disadvantage in the society. More importantly, for some of us to hide under this obvious satire and a call to reasoning by Pat Buchanan, to fan the signature Nigerian ethnic jingoism is disingenous and pitiful! This is my candid opinion on this issue. JUI
From: Adeniran Adeboye [mailto:aadeboye@mac.com]
Sent: Tue 19-Oct-10 10:07 PM
To: naijaintellects@googlegroups.com
Cc: itna@mail.ccs-africa.co.za; OKOJIEPAUL@aol.com; Bobson Arigbe; Kwabena Akurang-Parry; Ola Kassim; Akinbode Akinola; Abraham Madu; Adebayo Adejuwon; Adeniba Adepoyigi; Bimbola Adelakun; Mobolaji Aluko; Tony Agbali; Emmanuel Babatunde; Rufus Orindare; Gloria (History) Emeagwali; Olu Ojedokun; Ede Amatorisero; Farooq Kperogi; Ibukunolu Babajide; Igietseme, Joseph (CDC/OID/NCPDCID); Kay Odunaro; Kennedy Emetulu; Nnanna Agomoh; Oderaigbo; Odidere Afis; Olushola Fashedemi; Olugbenga Oladokun; Iyalaje Fama; Pius Adesanmi; Dominic Ogbonna; Dele Olawole; Tina Iyare; Joe Attueyi; Tunji Alapini; Amauche Ude; Vincent Modebelu; Wharf Snake; Chris Odetunde
Subject: Re: [Naijaintellects] RE: BUCHANAN: Tribalism Returns to Europe
Paul and Val,
This debate is very instructional. The issue has some relevance to the situation that we have in Nigeria. Have human beings really matured enough to work with rather than against real differences? Let us not forget that this issue alone gave us 2 world wars in quick succession during the 20th century.
Adeniran Adeboye
On Oct 19, 2010, at 9:45 PM, Dr. Valentine Ojo wrote: Okojie Paul:
You are contradicting yourself - and talking from both sides of the mouth. You want to have your cake and eat it. You are the one who obviously does not grasp the point of the article.
You cannot tell or teach me anything about the relationship between Germans and their "tuerkische Gastarbeiter". I studied and taught in Germany before returning to Nigeria...so I lived the situation first hand!
Now to your attempted rebuttal...
"Buchanan's piece was descriptive rather than analytical."
Odiegwu!
What difference does that make here, analytical or descriptive? Buchanan has not claimed he was writing a research paper now, or has he? He is merely reporting what he observed, what is!
"We must ask, what is meant by integration? That the Turks in Germany abandon their own identity?"
Oh, it is the Germans who should abandon or modify "their own identity" - in their own country - to accommodate the Turks and other foreigners who come to take advantage of their economic prowess...or what are you asking or suggesting?
"Its is Germany's racist immigration policy that contributes to the isolation of the Turks."
And?
MUST you insist on living in their country...if you are not willing to live on their own terms?
Europeans are not Africans who abandon their own culture, identity, languages and ways to APE others who they don't even want to be identified with them.
"Integration is a two way process."
Is it really...?
Listen to yourself:
"How did the Europeans integrate during the period of colonialization and after? Take South Africa, did the whites integrate with the Black community? For Europeans, integration means the loss of the minority's culture and identity and the adoption of the European's."
Therefore - at least for Europeans - "Integration is NOT a two way process!"
It is a ONE-WAY PROCESS! If at all they allow or encourage it...
And they have never left the world in doubt about that - the reason the Japanese, the Chinese, and the Koreans closed their doors against so-called European "missionaries" - the most able spreaders of European culture and languages and ways, and the ones who soften the "natives" up for the European guns to follow...
Observe even Africans - male or female - who marry Europeans: it is invariably the African spouse that is INTEGRATED into the European lifestyle - rarely, if ever, the opposite which would constitute distinct exceptions!
"It is not multi-culturalism that has failed, but the abysmal failure of the Europeans to accept the presence of non-white population in their midst."
And which proud, native people residing in their own nations (or even outside their own nations) ever accept or even preach "multi-culturalism" as a way of life - except Africans who are deeply imbued with INFERIORITY COMPLEX, Africans who want to be anything but Africans...
[The United States and Canad are about the only two nations that talk of "multi-culturalism" with some seriousness (and maybe Brazil) - but for purely historical and pragmatic reasons! They are among the few nations founded on someone else's lands, and where they did not quite succeed in entirely wiping out the original owners of the land, and where they also needed the labor of Outsiders - foremost those of African slaves and Chinese coolies - to develop.
If they do not intend to live with peramanent riots and uprising, they have to make some major concessions to "multi-culturalism". Garmany, France and most European nations do not have to!]
Ask people who have visited China and Japan. They don't even pretend to encourage foreigners to "integrate" into their cultures! I was in both places!
They are friendly and courteous, they welcome you - but as "visitors", and they want you to stay that way! They have no wish to have you integrated into their cultures. They do not subscribe to "multi-culturalism", except the integration into their cultures, of some foreign influences they may deem positive from the point of view of their own culture - but not foreigners and their foreign ways! [Like the English and other Europeans integrated the drinking of tea, coffee and use of tobacco - things they do not produce - into their cultures!]
These are people who are PROUD of their cultures, and don't want it ADULTERATED by "outsiders".
Unlike Africans...some of whom truly believe that they had no "cultures" until they were actually "civilized" by outsiders - the Europeans!.
That's the difference, Paul Okojie. And that's what you precisely don't seem to get.
Dr. Valentine Ojo
Tall Timbers, MD
On Tue 10/19/10 4:44 PM , OKOJIEPAUL@aol.com sent:
Dear Ojo,
I think on this, your observation is misdirected.
Buchanan's piece was descriptive rather than analytical. We must ask, what is meant by integration? That the Turks in Germany abandon their own identity? Its is Germany's racist immigration policy that contributes to the isolation of the Turks. The Germans refuse to live in the Turkish area - go to Berlin and you will see this very starkly.
Integration is a two way process. How did the Europeans integrate during the period of colonialization and after? Take South Africa, did the whites integrate with the Black community? For Europeans, integration means the loss of the minority's culture and identity and the adoption of the European's. In Sarkozy's France he is rapidly adopting a Nazi type policy which of course is popular among the natives. And people ask how did Hitler do it? See the number of French people who approve of Sarkozy's fascist policies against minorities. Where is the encouragement for integration?
It is not multi-culturalism that has failed, but the abysmal failure of the Europeans to accept the presence of non-white population in their midst.
Regards,
Paul -----Original Message----- From: Dr. Valentine Ojo To: AfricanTalk CC: dipoeniola@yahoo.com; Bobson Arigbe ; Kwabena Akurang-Parry ; Ola Kassim ; Adeniran Adeboye ; Akinbode Akinola ; Abraham Madu ; Adebayo Adejuwon ; Adeniba Adepoyigi ; Bimbola Adelakun ; Mobolaji Aluko ; Tony Agbali ; Emmanuel Babatunde ; Rufus Orindare ; Gloria (History) Emeagwali ; Olu Ojedokun ; Ede Amatorisero ; Farooq Kperogi ; Ibukunolu Babajide ; Joe Igietseme ; Kay Odunaro ; Kennedy Emetulu ; Nnanna Ago! moh ; Odidere Afis ; Olushola Fashedemi ; Olugbenga Oladokun ; Iyalaje Fama ; Pius Adesanmi ; Dominic Ogbonna ; Dele Olawole ; Tina Iyare ; Joe Attueyi ; Tunji Alapini ; Amauche Ude ; Vincent Modebelu ; Wharf Snake ; Chris Odetunde Sent: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 20:41 Subject: [AfricanTalk] RE: BUCHANAN: Tribalism Returns to Europe Where are Dr. Joe Igietseme and other Nigerian Wazobians who live in the illusion that ETHNICITY (a.k.a. Tribalism)is dead...simply because they have lost touch with their own ethnicity in their mad desire to acquire other people's ethnicity - - that of European peoples who don't even recognize or want them?
Please read below what your "role models" have to say...
Dr. Valentine Ojo Tall Timbers, MD On Tue 10/19/10 2:20 PM , DIPO ENIOLA dipoeniola@yahoo.com sent:
| Tribalism Returns to Europe 10/19/2010
Is Europe's adventure in international living about to end? At Potsdam, Germany, this weekend, Chancellor Angela Merkel told the young conservatives of her Christian Democratic Union that Germany's attempt to create a multicultural society where people "live side by side and enjoy each other" has "failed, utterly failed." Backing up her rueful admission are surveys showing 30 percent of Germans believe the country is overrun by foreigners. An equal number believe the foreigners come to feed off German welfare. Merkel had in mind the Turks who came as gastarbeiters, guest workers, in the 1960s. Some 2.5 million now live in Germany. Arabs and East Europeans have come more recently. One survey puts the Muslim population at 5 million. "Multikulti is dead," says Horst Seehofer of Merkel's sister party, the Christian Social Union of Bavaria. He wants no more immigration from "alien cultures." Turks and other Muslims are not learning the language, he contends, not assimilating, not becoming Germans. Awareness of deep differences with Turkish neighbors became acute for Germans when, grieving in solidarity with America after 9/11, they learned that Turkish sectors of Berlin were celebrating Islam's victory with barrages of bottle rockets. Like all of Europe, Germany grows nervous. This summer, Thilo Sarrazin, who sat on the Bundesbank board, published "Germany Abolishes Itself," which sold 300,000 copies in seven weeks. Sarrazin argued that Germany's Muslim population is intellectually inferior and unable or unwilling to learn the language or culture, and mass immigration is destroying the nation. No rightist, but a stalwart of the socialist party, Sarrazin was forced out at the Bundesbank. Half his socialist party stood by him. Across Europe, there is a resurgence of ethnonationalism that is feeding the ranks of populist and anti-immigrant parties that are gaining respectability and reaching for power. Austrian nationalists triumphed in 2008 when the Freedom Party of Joerg Haider and the Alliance for the Future of Austria together took 29 percent of the vote. The Swiss People's Party of Christoph Blocher, largest in Bern, was behind the successful referendum to change the constitution to outlaw minarets and prohibit the wearing of burqas. Hungary's Jobbik Party, which to the Financial Times "sits squarely in Europe's most repulsive arch-nationalist tradition and which blames Jews and Roma for the hardships of other Hungarians," pulled 17 percent of the vote this year and entered parliament with 47 seats, up from zero seats in 2006. The Sweden Democrats just captured 6 percent of the vote and entered parliament for the first time with 20 seats, joining right-wing folk parties in Norway and Denmark. Geert Wilders, a rising figure in Dutch politics, was charged with hate speech for equating Islam and Nazism. In June, his Freedom Party swept past the ruling Christian Democrats, who lost half of their strength in parliament "More security, less crime, less immigration, less Islam -- that is what the Netherlands has chosen," said Wilders. In France, President Nicolas Sarkozy -- one eye on Jean-Marie Le Pen's National Front, the other on the 2012 elections -- rejecting cries of "Nazism" and "Vichyism," is dismantling Gypsy camps and deporting Gypsies to Romania Milan is now following the French lead. What is happening in Europe partakes of a global trend. Multiracial, multi-ethnic, multicultural nations are disintegrating. Russians battle ethnic Muslim separatists in the North Caucasus. Seventy percent of Americans support an Arizona law to identify and expel illegal aliens. Beijing swamps the homelands of Tibetans and Uighurs with Han Chinese. India fights secession in Kashmir, Nagaland and the Naxalite provinces. "Wars between nations have given way to wars within nations, " said Barack Obama in his Nobel Prize address. Ethnonationalism tore Mikhail Gorbachev's Soviet Union and Josip Tito's Yugoslavia into 22 separate nations, and is now tugging at the seams of all multi-ethnic states. Globalism is in retreat before tribalism. But the awakening of Europe's establishment to the shallow roots of multiculturalism will likely prove frustrating and futile. With her fertility rate below replacement levels for 40 years, projected to remain so for the next 40 years, Germany will lose 12 million of her 82 million people by 2050. Her median age will rise eight years to 53, and 40 percent of all Germans will be over 60. Germany's problem is insoluble. She is running out of Germans. Yet if her welfare state is to survive and her industries are to remain competitive, Germany will need millions of new workers. Where are they to come from, if not the Third World? For not one European nation, save Iceland and Albania, has had a birth rate for decades that is not below zero population growth. Baby boomer Europe decided in the 1960s and 1970s it wanted La Dolce Vita, not the hassle of children. It had that sweet life. Now the bill comes due. And the bill is the end of their tribes and countries as we have known them. Old Europe is dying, and the populist and nationalist parties, in the poet's phrase, are simply raging "against the dying of the light." |
-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "naijaintellects" group. To post to this group, send email to naijaintellects@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to naijaintellects+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/naijaintellects?hl=en.
| __._,_.___ See event pictures and info of the NIDO Canada World Conference, Ottawa 2010 at http://www.AfriCanVIP.comSEE YOU IN TORONTO IN 2011 Nigerians In Diaspora Organization. Our mission is to promote the spirit of patriotism, networking, and cooperation among Nigerians in Diaspora.... Support the PUSH TO VOTE IN NIGERIA at http://www.ProudNigerians.Org . ![]() __,_._,___
|
No comments:
Post a Comment