HotSeat Presidential Candidate Interviews #2 -
Mallam Nuhu Ribadu
Recorded Sunday October 3rd, 2010
Interviewers: Philip Adekunle, Ikhide Ikheloa, Pius Adesanmi, Farooq Kperogi
INTRODUCTIONS
Hello Mallam Ribadu, How are you?
Nuhu Ribadu: How are you doing? How are you?
Fantastic. I have Mr. Ikhide Ikheloa and Mr. Pius Adesanmi, they're both with me on the call.
Nuhu Ribadu: OK
So we are going to take about an hour to ask you a few questions regarding your Presidential candidacy. First of all, sorry about the loss of your former colleague in the Independence day bomb blast.
Nuhu Ribadu: Ah, yes, yes, thank you very much
WHY WE SHOULD VOTE FOR YOU
I want you to win my vote. I want you to tell me why I should vote for you, why you're the most qualified candidate to be the President at this time.
Nuhu Ribadu: Well, first and foremost, thank you very much and I'm grateful. Also a big thank you for what you are doing for our country, and indeed our people. I am today asking for Nigerians to consider me, to vote for me TO BE the President of Nigeria.
First and foremost I'm a Nigerian, I love my country and I'm honest about my country, and I am passionate about my country. I'm close to 50 years, almost at the same age with Nigeria. I've been in public service for 25 years of my life. Half of my life I've given it to Nigeria as a public servant. I don't know anything other than to work and see what I can do to help my country move forward.
I will talk a little bit about my own qualifications. There are good Nigerians across; there are people who are qualified, there are good people who can do something. I also consider myself as one.
A little bit of my own history. I'm from a political family. My family and father, all have been in public service all of their lives. I got trained as a lawyer and after graduation as a lawyer, after qualifying as a lawyer I decided to join the Nigerian Police Force, the first in my family. I worked there as a prosecutor, I mean as a lawyer I became a prosecutor within the Nigerian Police Force, and for 10 to 15 years I've been in the forefront in prosecution in my own country. I in that capacity participated in tribunals, commission of enquiries; I also worked as an Interpol officer within and outside Nigeria.
In 2003 I had a chance to set up a government agency – EFCC (Economic & Financial Crime Commission) it was a piece of paper that was given to me, and I turned it to what it is today. I had a fruitful.. I mean I had a chance to exhibit my own management skills, ability for one to create something and for it to stand and deliver, a government agency with the responsibility that delivers. I had that chance and I've shown it to Nigerians that it could be done.
Today EFCC is a household name; I also had the chance as a law enforcement officer and also in the capacity as the chairman of EFCC to address one of the biggest problems confronting our country – corruption. It's the primary cause and the reason why things do not just work. I had that chance and I fought corruption and I think I have something to show for it. I believe that I did it as part of a team of Nigerians who go up and said yes we could do it, we changed the country a lot, we recovered so much money, we got a couple.. I mean, convictions, and we, as a result of that carved a little bit of a better name for our country. I also after that, of course in that capacity..I'm part of the government, as a member of the economic team that managed the economy of Nigeria from 2003 to 2007. In that capacity I was part of the team that came out with NEEDS as an economic program, and we attempted to implement it. Indeed we did and we saw a change in the country within a short period of time, for example the reserve of Nigeria that was less than 7 billion at the time when we started the reforms, by the time in 2007 when we had four years of reform it went to over sixty-something billion dollars. We wiped out the national debt of Nigeria, improved generally fiscal responsibility and order, budgetary performance. Things started changing in our own country. I was part of the change, central in everything that took place. I had that chance to exhibit my economic qualification as well.
I'm grateful to God for that. Also after that, I went to NIPSS, the highest institute for management in our own country and I was there for one year. I had a chance after that to be a fellow of Oxford University, I also had a job at the Centre for Global Development, I attended courses, I gave lectures in almost all the IVY league universities in the world, I have a chance to interact with the best in the world, Presidents, parliaments and so on. That, I believe, qualified me. In addition, I believe Nigeria is in a dire need of people who could do something for it. I believe I'm in the position to do so. I believe I have the honesty and the courage for me to make a change or probably doing something about the problems confronting us today. I can unify our country, I am a detribalised Nigerian, I am a modern person, I can do it, and I believe I can do it.
Thank you very much Mallam, that was very compelling, and thank you very much for your work for the country in the last 25 years. So, quickly and please Mallam, because we have so many questions, please keep it... let's say maybe one minute, you know, for your responses. So, let's say you become the President next year, in May, what would be your goals, what would be like..this is what I want to achieve in the next 4 years, this is what I want to achieve...this is how I see Nigeria over the next 20 years or so. Please tell us that quickly in one minute.
Nuhu Ribadu: In one minute, I'll bring justice to our people, I will unify our people, I will bring security to our people, I will stop violent crime – kidnapping, armed robberies, piracy. I will stop it. I will stop corruption in our country, I will confront poverty, I will improve education, I will build health institutions that we do not have to go out for medical attention, I will get universities and tertiary institutions that will be good enough for people to send their children to, not to be looking for outside, and I can assure you I'm going to address all issues like power challenges, basic infrastructures, those agencies that can make life easy for our own people, I do intend to provide them within record time, it's not going to be a long time, I can do it, I believe I can do it.
Fantastic, Ok, we'll take you up on those things, so, first of all let me hand you over to Ikhide to ask you the next set of questions. We'll go into those specifics shortly... Ikhide please.
ARE YOU FRONTING FOR OR A SPOILER FOR JONATHAN?
Yeah, Mallam Ribadu thank you, that was very compelling. I have a bunch of questions and I'm just going to bunch them if you don't mind.
You obviously appeal to a very energetic constituency just like Mallam Buhari, those who want a non-tainted presidency. However, there is the allegation that you are a spoiler for Jonathan. How would you convince Nigerians that you are a viable serious candidate and how would your campaign be funded?
Nuhu Ribadu: You know one thing that's surprising me is about this President Jonathan rumors. This is a government that has retired me for no reason, I've not done anything, I've given 25yrs of my own life into public service, and they retired me. What Jonathan did was just to make it from dismissal to retirement. And I am yet to be told what I've done for me to be retired from public service. And some people will still come round and say that I'm doing this for Jonathan? For God's sake what reason? What reason? Why?
How can you punish somebody and again take advantage of it. No its so unfair, I mean I feel real sad when people talk like this. But above all, I worked all my life to improve my own people, my own country. I can never . Nuhu Ribadu will be the last one to be used, more so, somebody who have been treated unfairly.
So the PDP government had never been part of it. They've been extremely unfair to Nigerians and unfair to me. I did to the best of my ability what I thought was the right thing and they went after me, they punished me, they humiliated me, they took me out of public service, they retired me, and I've not got one penny up to this moment. And people are talking about me being used? I think that is very unfair to me.
VIABILITY OF CAMPAIGN
Again, real quickly, how would you convince Nigerians that you're a viable serious candidate?
Nuhu Ribadu: What.......the point about viability or not is that when you are a candidate you come out and say this is what I've done, this is what I've done, this is what I intend to do, people should look and see what I've done in this country and see whether indeed I'm good enough to do again or probably even do better. I have worked, and I told you I have served my country for 25 years, and those things that I have done are visible, are evident and now that I have come out to say I am a free person and I'm joining politics and I have refused to join the party that that I believe is the problem in Nigeria today – the PDP. I've decided to go to the opposition which is the most important.... the second party in Nigeria. A party that has the semblance of a national outfit.
I'm trying desperately to bring all the progressives together, I'm talking to all good parties, I'm talking to all the good people, I'm trying to even turn the people who are in PDP who are good enough, come back and let's see if we can come together and save our own country. I am leading this and I am doing it, and already I have started seeing results.
There's no any other way you could prove that you are a serious person better than that. Today I'm in the lead, I'm in the forefront of building unity within the progressives to address the problem that is PDP and federal government and the 30 states that they're in control today in our own country. I'm extremely extremely serious person - whatever I do in life I do it seriously and that has been my whole life.
CAMPAIGN FUNDING
Fair enough. The next bunch of questions goes to how you view campaign funding, and how you view the source of funding, so........ there was a widely published statement about you saying you would take money from any corrupt politician. Do you really say that? And how do you reconcile that with your stance on campaign financing.....
Nuhu Ribadu: (Cuts in) you know..........my problem is either way I'm being challenged. On one side will say I'm a rigid man. They say I'm too judgemental, but I'm no longer the chairman of EFCC, I'm not going to go about saying that I'm going to judge everyone on the basis of whether you're corrupt or not corrupt, and that is my belief that Nigerians must contribute and make this country good and better, but all Nigerians are Nigerians, whatever you are, you must find a place in your heart and in your own time for you to contribute to make a Nigeria that all of us will be proud of.
This is all what I've said and suddenly it has been turned into that I said that I'm taking money from (corrupt politicians). No, I never said a thing like this. It is about giving a dog a bad name for you to continue to hang it. I've suffered that enough in my life while they continue to attribute things to me that I've not said. How could I say that I'll take money from corrupt........that is not my life, it has never been my life and there is no way for me to be changing now.
To be fair to a lot of your supporters, lots of them are very young, very idealistic and you have to admit that it would have come to them as somewhat of a shock and a letdown if you have said, as you were reported to have said in the presence of Mr. Tinubu, that you don't worry about the moralities of people who......
Nuhu Ribadu: (Cuts in) let me tell you, don't even go there, for God's sake, the fact that I'm not going to work to make Mr. Tinubu my President , rather it is the AC as a party that is working to make me a President. Tinubu is not AC for God's sake, and that is not even the issue, what about Fashola, is Fashola not doing very well? Is he not in the ACN? What about Governor Oshiomole, are they not also Nigerians who are doing very well? They are probably the two best Governors in Nigeria today. They are part of the ACN. Tinubu or no Tinubu, they are performing, why is it that Nuhu Ribadu will not be in the same platform to make a difference for our country? Why is it that simply because I've joined.
If you are talking about what is happening today in our country? Have you seen what is happening in the PDP? Have you seen the people who are in PDP? You want me to go there? Or you want me to go into a sectional ethnic party? Am not going to do that, I'm a true Nigerian, I'm a Nigerian that see Nigeria as one constituency, I will not go to a party that is....the foundation of which is just corruption. I am going to a party that has shown that you can do good governance. I've seen it in Fashola, I've seen it in what Adams tried to do for the country. And that is the reason why I'm going there. I am not going to Tinubu or any other individual, rather it is because of the example of good governance that I have seen, and I think that is good enough for me as a reason to be there.
Ok, ok great, finally, just tell me a little bit how, have you thought a little bit about how this campaign would be funded? I realised you intend to be with a structured party, but what is your vision?
Nuhu Ribadu: (Cuts in) Yeah, yeah, I can tell you about funding. First and foremost in Nigeria today you must belong to a political party. You need the structure of the party.... so the AC is fairly a National party, but I'm not going to stop at AC, I'm trying to bring other progressive people and structures on ground, on board. So that has to be fairly certain. Otherwise this would have been a huge endeavour that will cost so much to do.
Two, you know money can never get my credibility; credibility in an individual is what matters more than anything. It is not money that can get you, but I'm grateful to God that has given me that. It is not about money, it is the main thing that can get you to be acceptable to people or not. It is not money that can buy you that.
Three. Of course, you need a little bit of money for you to go through the process. Already what I've seen on ground is amazing, few people, individuals, young men, Nigerians, so many come in to contribute and say let's contribute money 100 Naira, 500 Naira and then we'll organise to do things and deliver. Up till this very moment I've never pasted one poster of me campaigning, and people have done it across the country everywhere. I've not made one, I've not put one penny into this.
Already as I have gotten here, I have seen wherever we want an office for our campaign, we will approach owners of buildings to say we want this building, even before we pay for it, the owner will say no, take it free if it's Nuhu Ribadu. I've seen it happen and that is what matters.
Above all, I want to run a campaign that people will buy in. People must be ready to see it is something they believe in and buy in. Even if it is 10 Naira, 20 Naira, 200 Naira, 1000 Naira, I want us to build a structure that will make that possible in a way that public participation in the funding will be the main thing that will drive the campaign. I don't think you have to be a rich man to campaign and win election in Nigeria. I've seen it happen. Shagari was not a rich person, Sadaurna was not a rich person, even Obasanjo at the time he became President was not a rich man. So therefore you don't have to be a rich man to make it Nigeria.
CORRUPTION
Hello Mallam Ribadu, Pius Adesanmi here, once again, condolences, about the death of your former colleague.
Nuhu Ribadu: Yes, yes, so sad Pius
We're sorry to hear about that. I have questions for you mainly bordering on your major selling point – corruption. But before I get to that I have a little aside, and I want you to be very very brief about it, so we can zoom in on corruption. Of course you've already given us some general statements about that, but my first specific question now is the nature of the political landscape itself in Nigeria which is clustered with all sorts of characters, you know, who are so massively corrupt but they wield considerable political influence, political power, and we have recycled them over the years. People get to Aso rock and find out that they cannot clear this people out of the way, you know, they're there, they're being recycled. How do you intend to deal with this?
Nuhu Ribadu: It's a little bit very faint; can you ask the question again?
We have a problem with a political landscape that is riddled with too many corrupt individuals not corruption, but corrupt people.
Nuhu Ribadu: I think I got you, I think I got you. I can give you a short answer..... I believe that corruption is about leadership, if you have a leader who is good, who is honest, who.....
No, Mallam sorry, sorry, I don't want us to make it corruption because that becomes abstract. I'm talking about corrupt individuals, and there are too many of them......
Nuhu Ribadu: Yeah, let me tell you, I'm just going to.......my take here is, you know, what is going to change it is that you have an individual at the highest level, the office of the President , who is going to lead by example, who is not going to tolerate anybody under him that is going to be corrupt. I've seen in Africa that if you have a wrong person as the President every other thing will not work, the senate will not work, the judiciary will not work, the executive will not work if you have an individual who is most inappropriate.
My intension is that if I have the chance and I am the President of Nigeria, and Nigerians have given me the go ahead to lead, I do intend to lead by example, I do intend to have the courage to confront people who are bad. I do intend to clean up the Aegean stable, I do intend to say the time have come that good people must be given the chance, and let us not continue to manipulate and take advantage. It's not going to be difficult I do not see the possibility of having good governance when everything and everybody around is going to do things in a way that is selfish. We must find a way of solving it and I have done it in the EFCC. The leadership I gave in the EFCC is the reason why we had quality people. There were policemen that I brought and we gave them good leadership and we stopped the corruption and there was no corruption in the EFCC while I was there. And that is how we got the results. we can do it at the national level. If you have the political control of a country, you can navigate the process, capture the trust of the people and see it implemented as the President.
So, Mallam, in essence, you are clearly giving Nigerians your word that some of the ugly situation we had in the past where known publicly-acknowledged criminals, corrupt people turned Aso Rock into a sort of bed and breakfast. James Ibori was there .....
Nuhu Ribadu: They will never have a place. It's over. That's the whole essence of the change we are calling for. If it's going to be the same business as usual, then it's not a change.
There are extremely good Nigerians out there who are ready to make contributions. They must be given a chance. My intention is to assemble a team of good people, honest good Nigerians, hardworking, intelligent, smart, brilliant with the tools and the competence for them to come and make a difference. If I have people who can make a difference, it is going to be an all inclusive, but certainly good people.
And this is very evident. Those people who are pretending to be..who want to be President, let them talk to you, let them have a conversation like what I'm having and you will be able to judge. Let every Presidential candidate come and talk to you. People say they are honest by mouth, let them come and show it demonstrate it, argue with people and convince them. Some people blindly follow other people and you ask them what is their reason they would not say. I am making myself available. i want to have a conversation with you. I want to tell you what I want to do and I'm here. I want to listen to you and this is what matters about good leadership. It's not about blind following, not about saying somebody is good and you have no justification whatsoever. It's not about saying somebody is good and who is not even in conversation, who is not even giving you a chance for him to be heard. I don't know, I don't understand.
PENDING EFCC CASES
Ok Two quick two questions and we can move to other topics. First, If you are elected, you're going to inherit a mountain of pending corruption cases especially from the EFCC. How do you intend to handle these and And tied to that specifically how would you handle the Hallibutons Siemens and all those mega-corruption cases that have been swpet under the carpet.
Nuhu Ribadu: First and foremost, I do intend to be President of Nigeria. I do intend to lead at the political level and do everything that is right to get results. I do intend to make sure that all institutions under me are going to deliver.Forget about the EFCC. Under the Ribadu presidency, the police will work, the ICPC will work, all the government agencies would deliver
I'm not even restricting myself to EFCC and what it's doing. One thing I can assure you is that Government agencies will deliver on their assigned responsibilities. Those who are in charge of doing the work must deliver. And if it means that if EFCC have cases that are pending, they must have a way of making sure that they deliver. I do intend to have quality people in charge of government agencies including the EFCC itself. Govt must deliver, Govt must perform and do the right work. I do not want to limit myself to one case. It's too small for me to look at and give an example. One thing I can tell you is that they will deliver. It's not just EFCC but all the government agencies that are out there and almost like a waste as it is today
PATIENCE JONATHAN
And finally, quickly Mallam, do you have anything to say to the controversy because it shocked quite a number of people about your purported exculpation of Mrs Jonathan - Patience Jonathan...there were some statements credited to you about...
Nuhu Ribadu: ....no this is about the Nuhu Ribadu that I am. A Nuhu Ribadu that has no sentiments against anybody or any individual. A Nuhu Ribadu who will be able to stand above everything and look at it on the basis of what is fair and just. A Nuhu Ribadu who can never crucify an individual simply because it is convenient.
...No its not crucifixion ..if she has a case to answer..
Nuhu Ribadu: Let me tell you. Wait There was a never when I was in the EFCC when we ever invited that woman to come and make a statement. Why should I come out now simply because it is easy and convenient for one to say so. When I was in EFCC I never I never I never invited Mrs Jonathan for questioning or take her statement
There was a time they were playing politics. And it was not just here, so many peope are being accused of things. Petition was going round - all over not just one person.
And at the time when I was making a presentation to the senate, I went with all petitions against people and the way we worked in EFCC is that if there's a petition against you, we look to see if there's substance in it, we can verify and see whether it was something that was worth looking into or there's nothing. A lot of the petitions were politically motivated. And therefore when I went to the senate, I showed them that these are some of the cases we have, we are looking into it. Some of them we were ready to go to court, some of them we were investigating, some of them were not investigatable. Thats what I said.
And then there was another case of sufficient transaction that has to do with Bayelsa State. About a woman who did a business with Bayela State- contract it was 70million Naira of sufficient fiduciary report that we got. We investigated it and there was nothing connected with Mrs Jonathan. Even as at that time those who were desperately looking to make a political mile out of every opportunity decided to use that to link it with them simply because they wanted to kick them out of office at that time. It's not me that can help people in political things. That's indeed that was what happened
Up to this very moment I ask people to bring out the case file they talking about. While she was invited or taek a statement or anything. And you want me to come out and because I'm contesting against them? no never
Question:...they didn't say she was invited...
Nuhu Ribadu: Wait, wait I have to say something here. Let me tell you. I have to say something here. There was a time they said she was caught with 13million dollars. Financial Times reported International Media reported this and that. This was so unfair I decided to keep quiet that time because if I spoke, people will say it was because I was looking for a job with the Jonathan Government. I have got to a point where I have nothing against them. I am going to contest against them. I want to kick them out of that office. So this is the time for me to come out and be the honest person that I believe I am. To say the truth without gaining from it. That's indeed that was what happened
When I was confronted, after I declared my intention to contest elections. Somebody came to me from the media to ask what about the Jonathan case. I said no, I have never taken statement from this woman. I have never taken her in for anything. Why should people want to use me for their own ends? I'm not the kind of person you can use
I don't even understand the controversy and I'm shocked about it. Simply because she's President wife, therefore we say it is OK. What is it? What kind of country is that? It's not just, it's not fair. I will be the last person to be used to malign people simply because it is convenient. I would not do it.
SECURITY
Mallam Ribadu this is Ikhide, I'm going to take you down to something a little bit less controversial (laughs), let's talk about the security situation in Nigeria. I was in Nigeria in September and quite frankly I was appalled and frightened by the state of insecurity. The police force was openly with begging bowls demanding money from folks and just basically berating and abusing them if they didn't comply, we have law enforcement personnel, citizens falling to the bullet of dare devil arm robbers and we have criminals just doing really perversely creative things in the land. The question I have goes to how you will hope to improve the country's security situation; you saw what happened on October 1st? That's just horrible. Real quickly, what is your vision about reforming the Nigerian police force? Do you think the current situation........
Nuhu Ribadu: My brother, let me tell you, this is one area that I can make a difference for our country. Security is central, security is fundamental; it is the foundation of a society. A lot of us Nigerians are out there and because we are so afraid coming back home, internal people are unsafe, daily we are tormented by robbers, kidnapping and so on, our businesses are not safe, our money is not save, everything is totally upside down, but you have in me a professional, you have in me a person who has done a lot in that regard, I know the security setup in and out, I've been a law enforcement officer all my life. I will change it immediately, it's an area that I can beat my chest and tell you that I'll be able to do something about it immediately.
I believe given chance, it's not about just reorganising the Nigerian police force, it's about organizing the entire justice sector, it's about changing things, it's about bringing new ideas, it's about bringing the tools, it's about wiping out corruption within the law enforcement itself, it's about ensuring that we deliver, and for God's sake you know you have an example to give.
I have a something to prove, I was given chance to address corruption and I did something about it that everybody sees, I can change the security situation in my country, give me one year, I was even saying some six months or so, I will stop violent crime, I will control it, I will stop it, give me a chance in Nigeria that I'm going to be the President you will not see these things, it will be stopped, it's a promise that I can give and I'll beat my chest that I will deliver it. I'm going to ensure that Nigerians are going to be safe wherever they are, including of course what is going on.
How can you, for God's sake, I mean as a country man with so much resources with a lot of law enforcement agencies, Nigerian Police force alone is over 350,000 people, but you cannot guarantee basic things, for example like you can sleep in your own house safe, you can move on the street and small little people call themselves armed robbers, kidnappers continue to torment people and we cannot do anything about it. I will stop it, I will stop it.
Question:....could you clarify a statement that you recently made; you said something about using 5,000 policemen to solve our security problems, what was that all about?
Nuhu Ribadu: I didn't say so, this is the tragedy about individuals and the media, I never said a thing like this. What I said was with 5,000 policemen you can stop violence crime. You see, I'm a policeman, I know internal working of the police force. You see, in the police we have what they call anti robbery squad, we have the departments, different, different departments, today that units is not up to two to 3,000 people and that is wrong, we need to get qualified quality people, a number maybe like 5,000 and with 5,000 people well trained on issues to do with violence crime you can stop it, that is the point I was making.
I did not say that Nigeria needs 5,000 policemen, this is the sad story, I tried to even compare it, I said how many thousands of policemen today are guarding VIPs and how many are there in the anti-robbery squad. This is the point I was trying to make.
50,000 of our policemen today go to guard duty, 50,000 minimum go to duty for VIPs, It is a waste. If you have a solid quality trained policemen, 5,000 of them on the issues to do with violent crime like armed robbery, kidnapping, and things like that you would stop those violent crime that is causing so much havoc for our people. That's the point I was trying to make, I cannot say that 5,000 policemen is enough to do policing in Nigeria, No.
NIGER DELTA
Let's talk about the Niger Delta a little bit. You wanna talk about that?
Nuhu Ribadu: Yes, why not
Let's talk about MEND. Clearly, that situation is getting out of hand what concrete negotiation steps, not military action, would you use to address the cause of MEND ..to enable them to permanently cease fighting.
Nuhu Ribadu: Basically Niger Delta is in dire need of justice and fairness, Niger delta needs to be incorporated as part of the country. The people of Niger Delta are perfectly entitled to enjoy whatever that is God-given to them and of course they are part of Nigeria and in that capacity they are also entitled to security, law and order.
I believe if you give me the chance, if I'm president of Nigeria, I will bring justice to that part of the country, I'll make them to have sense of belonging, I'll also ensure that we have security and stability, law and order in that sector. While few people continue to hold the rest into ransom, I believe for me…. Hello, yes, go ahead…
Yeah tell me, give me specifics, What specific steps will you take to help with the development of the Niger Delta should you become the president?
Nuhu Ribadu: Look, the point about what people, forget about, you know we heard, for example, the Mitee Committee report. People are talking about, that, well, if I get it I will accept it and I'll implement it. This is just a cheap little gimmick that is not even making sense.
What I tell you is I'm going to engage the Niger Delta people, I'm going to provide justice and I'm going to make sure that the resources that belong to that part of the country, it's going to be made good use for the people and for the people to benefit, and I can tell you, I as an individual, one little Nigerian, with an opportunity did a lot for the Niger Delta. When I was EFCC chairman I recovered money for the Niger Delta people, money actually stolen from them. A Niger Delta governor gave me $15 million, if I wanted to, I would have taken it to go and enjoy life with it. I refused to, I said no it belongs to the people of Delta state, it must go back to the Niger Delta people, I've done work in Bayelsa state where billions and billions of money was recovered and returned to the people of Bayelsa, I've done work in Rivers state, the same thing, I've done work in almost all the Niger Delta. That's in my capacity as chairman of EFCC, and if I have the capacity as the president of Nigeria, in charge of the political authority of Nigeria, I'll make sure that they get justice, it's more than what you can even talk about in one specific report. I do intend to be fair, to be just and do the right thing for the people of Niger Delta.
Mallam Ribadu, I wanna ask you a question, that goes to the security situation and is related to the Niger Delta issue. I was raised as a barrack boy myself, born in the barracks, left Nigeria from the barracks, we travelled all over the country because it was a Federal police force as you know…Pre-colonial, we had a local police force structure; we now have a federal police force structure. What are your thoughts about decentralizing the police force? federal structure ……and local
Nuhu Ribadu: You see, this are some of the issues that has to be looked at critically, you see, the problem of Nigeria is that we have tried a lot of things and it did not work. If you are talking about decentralizing the Nigeria police force, we have heard decentralize Nigeria police force before and it also has its own issues and difficulties. But I agree with you, there has to be a way of making sure that state governments that do have power to enact laws must also have power to enforce them. This is reasonable, this is something that has to be looked into, but you also have to look at it at the wider national interest.
This our country is one nation, we must work towards making it a one nation that all of us will be proud of, a country that can work. We must not deliberately continue to work to fragment it and reduce it to a level where we continue to go different directions, we have to find a way of bringing patriotism, of bringing love for Nigeria, in ensuring that justice is provided that it can give people security and, or…and have confidence in our country. If you are trying to reduce it to a level of I am going this way, I am going this way, you are not helping the country and frankly it's not going to be to the benefit of anybody or any unit, chances are it will even be counterproductive. What matters is what can be delivered, what can work, what can give our people security, what can bring stability, peace and then growth for our own country.
The challenge is, I can tell you, is mismanagement, the challenge is our inability for us to do everything the right way, the challenge is about individuals who are in public office who see the place as the place to make money rather than to serve. Those are the challenges that make it difficult for us to really see anything good in the situation where we operate, we need to address it fast, we need to get delivery, we need to see institutions deliver and you will be able to then judge in the presence of whether we need to improve, countries do improve and change daily, continuously, Nigeria is the same thing, nothing is static, things must continue to meet up with the times.
RESOURCE CONTROL
Ah, Mallam Ribadu what are your ideas in terms of resource control, I mean, that seemed at the heart of the tension in the Niger Delta and the other parts of the country…?
Nuhu Ribadu: You see, my own issue about it, you know we got it wrong from the onset, if you see countries like Botswana, where..you know it's very similar, an African country with huge resources in one particular part and not in the rest of the country, but they were able to understand themselves and then get basic thing provided in those areas where resources are coming.
We did not do well, we ended up with leaders who just did the wrong things and ended up enriching themselves and creating more problems.
Niger Delta did not complain in the 70s, Niger Delta did not complain in the 80s, you know, and it's sad that it is now rightly they are complaining that they've not been fairly treated, but it is all part of failure of leadership, poor incompetent leadership that did not understand how to manage people. I know we have lost time, I know we have had bad examples, it's easy to destroy, to repair is not that easy.
I believe that on the issue of resource control, resource control as it is today is a product of this frustration and failure on the part of the people to really get anything out of their own God given resources. When I told you that I intend to provide justice and fairness to the people of Niger Delta, I'm talking about all those issues, ability for us to sit down, to really look in and reason with one another and understand ourselves and make it in a way that everybody is taken into consideration……..this is my own believe,
Nigeria must work, Nigeria must be a country that would be a promise for the black man, for Africa. Whatever it is we have to make sure that it works, and within Nigeria itself we must make sure that we bring people together, we must make sure that everybody must have a sense of belonging, we must make sure that we give justice and fairness.
Resource control is one element out of several issues that has to be addressed. I can tell you, as a president I have the capacity to do so, I would address those issues…
ZONING
What's your view on zoning?
Nuhu Ribadu: Well, zoning to me is a PDP problem, and it's part of the mess they have put our country into. I think, as much as possible, you know, with the situation where we are, conflicting interests, of various interests and we have not gotten to a level where we build systems or ability to rise above those pedeststrian things, maybe, maybe zoning could be a way out at a point, but I do not look at it as a way that you will forget quality and competence, and then this mediocre kind of arrangement where, you know, I don't know what zoning did to the South West when it comes to the leadership of the PDP from 1999, I don't think anybody is proud of it. I don't see what zoning did to us when Umar YarAdua was our president, sadly it was a negative for Northern development, I don't see what zoning is doing to the South South today as it is. I believe that, you know, what matters is ability for us to get quality leadership that can take us out of the problem that we are today, competence is what matters.
PDP put themselves into this trouble, they promise themselves and then as a party, and if as a party you can promise and fail then you are not to be believed, nobody is worth believing in PDP, because even the party will come and agree and disagree, so I think Nigerians should not even give them the chance to lead us.
But for me the zoning thing is rubbish, in fact the agitators, those who are calling for zoning are just saying so, so that they want to continue to do the mess that they have been doing in our lives, and zoning will give them the power and that I think is also wrong, I do not believe in zoning that is only going to bring incompetence into the Nigerian political leadership, I disagree with that.
CONSENSUS CANDIDADY FROM THE NORTH
What do you make, Mallam, of the North's plan to produce a consensus candidate and how do you think that could affect you?
Nuhu Ribadu: Ah,..you say North..North what?
The consensus candidacy, there has been talk about that, that the North could come up with a consensus candidate, what do you make of that?
Nuhu Ribadu: Well, you know the point about it, I am grateful to God that I am a Nigerian first before becoming anything. There will be no North if we do not have a Nigeria, I look at Nigeria as one. I believe that, you know, as much as that is the case, if is well grounded on the national progress, fine it is their own duty, but it is more or less like a PDP as a political party, I do not look at it as a northern thing per se, PDP is one political party out of several in our country, so if the PDP is looking at bringing a one consensus candidate, it should be regarded as a PDP affair, I do not look at it as a northern thing.
North is not PDP and I pray that it will never, and hopefully that the North will be free from these shackles of the PDP.
ECONOMY AND POVERTY
How would you improve the economy and the….. ?
Nuhu Ribadu: (Cuts in) The good thing about this is I do have experience as part of the economy management team that managed the country, and we improved the economy within a short period of time as an individual I was in the lead of it, I was more or less maybe more than any individual today that was responsible for the reorganization of the banking sector, I started it. Ah the capitalization of the capital market, we did a lot, we worked hard to bring foreign capital into our country, we preserved the money that we were earning, and then we made sure that we have improvement in budgetary performance.
We have fiscal discipline and responsibility. I was part of it, given the chance I will change the way things are today in our own country. I will make sure that we get value for the resources we have, I will make this practice where 70 or 75% of our oil earnings goes to recurrent.., imagine the last budget that we had four point something trillion, 70% of it go to recurrent, which means nothing for growth, nothing for development, nothing to have new schools, new universities, nothing to build hospitals, it is just to run government, it goes to the salaries of people, it goes to services, these are the things that must stop if we are going to have an improvement of the economy.
I intend to make an economy that is productive, not a consumption country. Today, literarily everyday planes are coming, I mean, ships are bringing goods for us to continue to consume, to consume, to consume, we do not produce, it must be reversed.
Today, when I look at Abuja I feel sad because billions and billions of money is sunk into Abuja, but nothing productive, it's just a very conspicuous consumption that has no progress, nothing new coming into our own economy. Abuja has no too solid industries, but you go into the houses, you go into streets, you go and see the cars that are being driven on the streets, so sad, these are the basic things that are showing that things are not working, we must find a way of reversing it.
The economy has to be the economy that has to be growth economy, an economy that is going to bring jobs to the people. Every single thing that we export today, whether it is crude oil, we are exporting jobs, those are issues that have to be addressed, those are economy fundamentals that must be looked into. I do, as a President , redefine the entire thing in a way that it is an economy that is going to be productive, first and foremost to save the money from being taken away, wasted as it is today.
So, if you were President Ribadu today what plans would you have to make the most significant impact on the lives of the vast majority of the people who have not gotten much in terms of a positive impact from this democracy?
Nuhu Ribadu: My brother, I am going to attack poverty, people are very poor. People are poor, young men are poor and I am going to address it immediately, and the reason why people are poor is simply because the resources is going into few hands, few people are enjoying life, the rest are getting difficulties. I intend to reverse it, I intend to create a middle class within the shortest time possible, I intend to support sectors that can bring jobs and growth to our own society
I will just give you one example, today the movies and music industry in Nigeria has the capacity to bring in thousands and thousands………….., (....trails off...)…….so those are the areas that you can do a lot, while we have all these raw materials going out we can bring it back to create jobs, but more importantly I tell you I intend to address poverty
I intend to make sure that the poor people would also have a chance for them to have a little out of what we call our own natural resources. It goes to the few hands, it goes today to those who are in government, the parliamentarians, the local government chiefs, the state governors and people in government. There has to be a way we can reverse that, there must be a way we can say no no no, public service is about service not about making money continuously.
And if we say from that the money must go to address poverty, how do we address poverty? Invest, invest in Agriculture, because most of our people are in agriculture, invest heavily, make it possible for them to make really make good use of the land and the resources available around them, make sure you invest heavily in education.
UNESCO said that a country like Nigeria to move forward must invest minimum of 25-26% of its resources into education. If you see what we are investing now, it is pathetic. Those are areas that will guarantee us tomorrow and address these issues we are talking about. We have to find a way of promoting the growth of the middle class, the middle class is the engine of the society, there has to be deliberate effort, not these pretentions - poverty alleviation and this and so on. Those are issues, you know, not political gimmicks, if you want to work, to work hard, you must find a way to start addressing those wastages that are taking place today where the few people who are in charge of our country continue to grow fat and fat while the rest of the people are getting poorer and poorer.
EDUCATION
Okay, Mallam let me quickly take you back to education, because you sort of glossed past it…………
Nuhu Ribadu: Yeah..on education, my intention is to make education available to every child in our own country and we do intend to implement what other countries did and they have seen result- India, China, Brazil and so on.
You must make it available to every child, education is not just going to be free but it must be compulsory for the growing up children to a particular level.
You have to find a way of bringing easy, accessible and then in addition you must also invest in quality education at the tertiary level. We will have to find a way to making universities that can be competitive with the rest of the university in the world.
We ought to find a way of addressing this issue of everybody is taking his child, every young man is looking outside for quality education. It must come to our own country as well, and we have seen countries who are doing it. Today, sadly, our boys go to Ghana, to Malaysia, not to talk of even the Western Europe. We have seen what they have done, we must start doing the same in our own country, we must find a way of returning this money that is going to these universities abroad, and how do you do it?....
Mallam Ribadu, sorry Mallam Ribadu this is Farooq Kperogi, I am sorry for cutting in, I want to ask very specifics questions about, ehm, what exactly, there are several educational policies that has been implemented in the country, for instance there is the 6-3-3-4 system, the teachers colleges which were primarily geared towards teaching primary schools has been discontinued, what in specific terms, which educational policies do you want revived or cancel or introduce to advance Nigeria's educational system?
Nuhu Ribadu: In the first instance, you know, most of these areas, the challenges are not the policies itself but the management and implementation. When you have a corrupt system, when you have wrong people who look at education as a place where you can make money, you must address those issues first, then you must find a way of ensuring that you have enough resources invested in education.
I told you about what UNESCO had, that country like Nigeria must spend minimum of 26% of its , resources into education, you must find a way of achieving that.
Two, you must make it accessible, are you getting me? Get it accessible to every hamlet, every small little house, anywhere, everywhere in all parts of our own country, I said that.
The issue about whether a system was 3-4-4, 2-4-4 are issues that you must get competent people, talented people who do understand these basic things for them to come and be part of a team that can address these issues.
Nobody as an individual will be able to have solution on every single problem. You must find a way of attracting quality people and we have them. I worked with Oby Ozekwesile when she was minister of education, I knew then that we have a quality person in charge of our own education as at that time, but those who are resisting reforms and change fought it and destroyed it, I'm not saying that she's the most perfect person, but I am talking about we do have quality people who could come in and make a difference in all various different sectors of our……
Mallam, that moment you are referring to made no, not even a tiny scratch on educational policy in Nigeria. So if she your idea of the kind of person that'll bring educational policies.. I think maybe you'll have to work harder to win my vote…….
Nuhu Ribadu: No, let me tell you, when you come with your programs and reform, people will fight you, people will disagree with you, ability to engage and continue to prevail is what will make a difference, when you consult and bring people all inclusive, we have specialist on education in this country, we have people who have been in it for long, we have good quality people who are there. Do not forget yourself or think that you are the one who has the solution for each program, if you do it you are making a mistake. You may disagree with whatever somebody is doing, ability for you to bring people to consensus is what matters, you cannot say simply because this is my own belief therefore it is what is going to work and if you disagree with it then it will never work, No, leadership means for you to bring people together, have very object honest discussion and come out with a workable program that can solve the challenges or the problems that we are confronted with.
I am not saying that at the time that was what and that was what must happen, no no no, I think I understood what was going on, I knew how it became a controversial issue, I knew if you are going to bring reforms you will have people who would fight you and as they say.. if you want to have enemies, if you want to have people who will fight you, they say that you must change, the moment you bring change you are going to see people who are going to confront you, but the ability to get across and get all others to come in and participate may lessen the whole thing and maybe you can get something that is going to be workable.
INTERNATIONAL POLICY
Okay, well, again I want to ask a question specifically on your international policy, on your foreign policy, Nigerian foreign policies traditionally has been African centred, subsequent administrations have not had any foreign affairs policies that are worth remarking, because it has always being African centered and all that. Have you given a thought to your foreign policies? If yes………
Nuhu Ribadu: (Cuts in)..I want to work, let me just tell you that my intention is just to have a Nigeria that can be respected, a Nigeria that will have a voice, a voice at all levels, particularly at our own local level – West Africa, Africa and in this world. We have suffered so much as a result of bad name and bad image to the point we are almost disregarded, we do not count any more, we do not have respect of the people.
I will work to restore respect and credibility and integrity of the country, I will make the world to listen to us and I will make sure that we contribute, contribute in a way that will also be appreciated.
We have done a lot for the world, we have done a lot for Africa, we have done a lot for West Africa, but it is almost like all going to waste. I do intend to make a policy that is going to be also advantageous to our own people. Then we might make anything out of it, it could be a policy that is going to be for the economy, it could be a policy that is going to help the country to grow, it will be a policy that will give our…..advantage in a way that it will make a difference to our people.
ON OBASANJO
Okay, thank you very much Mallam Ribadu, we are almost done. I will ask you one general question then we will wrap up. Last year you were here on NVS, you and Mallam El-Rufai and he said you were successful the last the last time because Former President Obasanjo gave you the cover, the Presidential cover. Now Obasanjo seems to be supporting…. at least he is in PDP, supporting the current President , are you planning to get his support for your aspiration so that you can at least win some of those people over?
Nuhu Ribadu: Not at all, I am not in his political party, I have not spoken to Obasanjo since l left office, I only met him twice, one in Washington DC in a program where I was an attendee like him, and the second the second one in Berlin in also another African program and for 2, 3 years I have not spoken to him on telephone, and he did not call me I did not call him.
I worked with Obasanjo in my capacity as a public servant who had a chance to set up an agency of government. He supported me and I am very grateful to him for that opportunity and the chance. I never knew Obasanjo before then and after the exit, after the finish of the work, never again, we didn't have any relationship again.
I am not in PDP, he is not part of anything that is happening in my life, I did not ask for his view and he did not give me one and that is what is happening between me and Obasanjo.
ON TINUBU
Okay, one other question, earlier you mentioned about Tinubu. He's been a huge part of your campaign, because we've seen him with you all over the place with you…
Nuhu Ribadu: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I am not running away from that.
Okay, 2 years ago though, or 3 years ago, you mentioned that Tinubu and Yerima were some of the most corrupt……………
Nuhu Ribadu: (Cuts in) I never, I didn't, no no no no, don't say that, don't even go there, I didn't…….
What did you say then? What did you say to the senate about…….
Nuhu Ribadu: Probably if you talk about Yerima, but I never talked about Tinubu. No it's not true.
Ok, alright, good to know that you didn't…..
Nuhu Ribadu: (Cuts in) …..Why do people do that for goodness sake,
But Tinubu himself made reference to that in a newspaper interview that you have been used…
Nuhu Ribadu: (Cuts in).. I investigated Tinubu, I investigated him, I investigated every single governor in Nigeria….
(Cuts in)…right, and you found him to be corrupt..
Nuhu Ribadu: …no no no no no, don't say that, don't say that, that's not fair. I remember…… then the governor of Zamfara I said it because somebody asked.., a Senator from his own state was the person who asked the question when I was addressing the Senate. Nobody asked me about Tinubu like that.
OK, but Tinubu himself said you were used against him, was that correct? that you were used to embarrass him, Tinubu himself said that and that he has forgiven you in the spirit of Ramadan..
Nuhu Ribadu: Haba it's not true, why are you, why are you trying to so much trying to pin me down on a job I did 4 years, I mean 5 years ago and I did deliver? Corruption is the most difficult thing to battle. I have suffered, they tried to kill me, they did everything, and now you reduce it to a point about one individual and you think it's fair?
That's not what we are doing Mallam, We have covered a lot of ground but we need to ask the tough questions that candidates don't gets asked…
Nuhu Ribadu: I am trying to bring myself up to see what I can do for the country and you want to reduce it to an individual? The same thing I suffered about Obasanjo, …this is somebody that I met in government service. Why are you not talking about Fashola Why is it that Fashola is doing what he is doing today. Why should anybody worry about me and Obasanjo, every single person worked for Obasanjo,………….
We are talking about Tinubu not Obasanjo, we are talking about Tinubu…
Nuhu Ribadu: …If you are talking about Tinubu, Tinubu is there, he was the former governor of Lagos, but see what Fashola is doing. Do you think that simply because I become a President and simply because Tinubu is a member of ACN that I will not be able to deliver? I am Nuhu Ribadu, I am not working to make Tinubu a President .
I am presenting myself as a candidate to be the President of Nigeria, but please believe in me, it's not about an individual, it's not about any other person, it's about me, and I can tell you, I can give you the assurance I will never tolerate corruption, I will do everything to the best of my ability to improve our country and that is all what I know in my life, it is not about individuals.
Okay, Mallam thank you very much, I want to assure you that we are not trying to pin you down, but these are the questions people have. I participate in discussion boards and these are the questions people ask of you.
Nuhu Ribadu: One thing gentlemen, I want to thank you for this opportunity and I look forward for more, for people to interact and get to know their own candidates, it is good thing. I'm not at all offended, I'm very appreciative for this opportunity.
(....trails off..)
If I'm going to be a public officer, if I want to lead the country, I must be challenged, I must be asked questions, and I will be always ready to give you response.
WRAP UP
Okay, I am really happy to hear that, one thing I will assure you is that anytime we hear things anything that are controversial in the press, things like 5,000 policemen, things like all those things we asked you, I will be calling you so that we can get clarification from you directly.
Nuhu Ribadu: Please do so, please do so, you'll be doing me a favor more than anything else because a lot of these things are misleading. (....trails off..)
Once again thank you very much Mallam Ribadu, we appreciate the time you have spent with us, we'll put this on NVS, and as soon as you have your documents, your manifesto, please send it to us so we can post it up as well.
Nuhu Ribadu: Thank you so much. Appreciate it.
Thanks you and have a good afternoon. Bye Bye!
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