I whole heartedly support equal opportunities in every sector of life for men and women, as does Professor Emeagwali, for this is what I think she was highlighting by her short intervention; and this we have to be mindful of as we protest the abnegation of all things Africa. But I do also feel that the parameter for deciding what is socially right or wrong should not always be derived from Western modernism since modernism, with all its progress and progressivism, comes with its own bundle of negativities, threats, perils and dead ends.
F. J. Kolapo,
(Associate Professor of African History)
History Department * University of Guelph * Guelph * Ontario * Canada* N1G 2W1
Phone:519/ 824.4120 ex.53212 Fax: 519.766.9516
From: "Farooq A. Kperogi" <farooqkperogi@gmail.com>
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 9:45:35 AM
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie
You are absolutely correct, Moses. I never understood La Vonda's intervention as an endorsement of gender inequality or as a denunciation of the quest for gender equality in Nigeria or anywhere else, as some people here seem to have done.
I understand her as inviting Chimamanda to:
1. think of what is often called "feminism's unfinished business" in the West, particularly the consequences of feminism's uncritical, unreflective celebration and adoption for the now much-maligned institution of marriage, motherhood, and the moral imperatives of reproductive futurism among women whose socio-historical experiences don't necessarily lend themselves to some of the impulses that actuate the more radical, misandrist constructs of so-called radical feminism.
2. realize that the innocuous patriarchal self-esteem (or, if you like, superbia) she ridicules in Nigerian men (such as the husband who insists on paying the family's rent even when the wife is economically better off) is actually now so scarce a cultural commodity in black America that it is highly prized by many black American women who have gained most of what Chimamanda seems to want for Nigeria women but who have lost the old-fashioned chivalry and "male responsibility" that was part of the bedrock of stable families in black America.
3. be conscious of the fact that her angst is mere vain, petit-bourgeois indulgence which, though perfectly legitimate, occludes the concerns of swaths of ordinary women who would not mind having husbands that are actually responsible and "culturally sensitive" enough to provide for their families, who are as unconcerned as the ordinary man about who becomes a governor, etc.
Although the point can be made that these thoughts are inspired by an instinctual capitulation to hegemonic patriarchal cultural narratives, they should not be silenced by "progressive" discursive tyranny. There is not just one way to appropriate our social reality.
Farooq
1 Park Place South
Suite 817C
Atlanta, GA, USA.
30303
Cell: (+1) 404-573-9697
Blog: www.farooqkperogi.blogspot.com
"The nice thing about pessimism is that you are constantly being either proven right or pleasantly surprised." G. F. Will
On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 11:02 PM, Moses Ebe Ochonu < meochonu@gmail.com > wrote:
LaVonda, thank you jare for standing up for marriage! Marriage is sometimes over-vilified by those who wish to make a case for the virtues of single womanhood or malehood and by those who seek to rightly make the point that marriage should not define a person's worth or identity. My problem is that, like Adichie did in her piece, they get overly defensive about it and make marriage seem like an antiquated marker of a simple, unremarkable life. Some of them even seem to want to make you apologize for being married. Adichie was out of line talking about her married friends in such a condescending manner. Their choice and all that comes with it is no less valid, sophisticated, and self-affirming than the choice that Adichie has made (so far): not to subject herself to the demands and obsequies of marriage.
On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 2:50 PM, Emeagwali, Gloria (History) < emeagwali@mail.ccsu.edu > wrote:
You have tilted the discussion slightly but this one is a good read. The initial discussion seemed to be about gender equality and the alleged negative contributions
of that quest to drug/alcohol addiction, singlehood, loneliness, unhappiness etc.
This one is about mainstream white feminist discourse vs what is sometimes dubbed 'womanist' discourse.
Cool.
GE
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com [mailto: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com ] On Behalf Of Lavonda Staples
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 2:03 PM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie
Dr. Gloria,
I am not arguing against anything. I'm trying to point out that the writing/opinions offered by Ms. Adichie are nearly the exact same verbiage espoused during the period leading up to failed attempts at an Equal Rights Amendment in the late 1960's and early 1970's. The rights and privileges, fulfillment of the United States Constitution, sought by those women were not aligned with the needs of common women. The forerunners of that movement, the most vocal and the most seen (i.e. Gloria Steinem) were White, privileged, and very far removed from the daily lives of women of color. There was no component which dealt with rights for Latina women who were at that time heavily involved in hand labour in sweat shops, agricultural labor in the Armerican west and southwest, or their access to medical and educational facilities. Concurrently, there was little attention paid to childcare for the increasing numbers of Black women who would go through the experience of motherhood either alone or with the help of an urban matriarchal system. Additionally, Black Americans faced the freedoms given by the Civil Rights Act of 1964 with agricultural and industrial skills. This was truly unfortunate as the advance into the techonological age had already been noted by the American president, Dwight D. Eisenhower (in his "Military Industrial Complex" speech) nearly 10 years prior. Added to that the chaos which marked the transition from the Civil Rights Era to the Black Power Movement and the rising action of the economic crisis which would soon engulf all Americans without regard to race or gender. The rhetoric of the women's movement was exceedingly injurious to Black families as the needs of White women really had nothing in common with the needs of Black and Hispanic women or families. Even up to 1974, Black women were waging fights for simple school houses in their communities (see, "Silver Rights" by Betty Curry - re: education in Sunflower County, Drew, MS). Black women bought into a debate which was not to their advantage. As late as 1974 Black men were still fighting for recognition within the AFL-CIO, the International Brotherhood of Teamsters, and the UAW (see, "Race, Reform and Rebellion..." by Manning Marable - re: A. Phillip Randolp and Bayard Rustin as paid voices against the causes of Black men in the UAW).
The problem with asking for gender equality between Black Americans at that time is that there was no racial or economic parity. So the tenets of feminism could not be applied and acted as a wedge between Black men and Black women. Until circa 1964, Blacks married and stayed married at higher rates or equal with Whites. The raison d'etre was survival as a community and, in the microcosm, as a family. The White feminist argument, at best, is a selfish individualistic argument (it's my turn, it's all about me, I need to be fulfilled, etc. and on and on). The arguments and debates from Hispanic and Black women was ALWAYS family centered, education as a route for improvement for family, medical access to improve pre-natal, neo-natal, and maternal care, safe and affordable childcare so that the FAMILY could prosper through working more hours or simply working outside of the home. Contemporarily, the authorship of White feminists STILL shows a clear line of demarcation with the very history of minority women. In the last ten years there have been titles such as, "The Second Shift," "The Sandwich Generation." Minority women have ALWAYS worked outside the home or had to pursue labor at home to gain extra funds. Minority women have ALWAYS taken care of parents out of respect and duty to the family system. So how in the world does White feminist rhetoric have any real world utilty to African, African American, and Latinas? It doesn't!
Ms. Adichie, in that short article, was talking very "white." She was speaking as if she had no knowledge of the situation in which her sisters live within. I stand on what I said just like John Henry - like a man who will not be moved: her statements as a celebrated, educated, woman of privilege reflect very little, if any real-world knowledge. They are dangerous to the point of sedition. And she does not demonstrate, not even in the modicum, a working knowledge of the immediate fight of every day needs of women. An immediate need of women in Lagos or Los Angeles, is not to become governor or even mayor. In my opinion, just one voice in six billion, she might listen to the proverb regarding putting out the fire on herself before she puts out the fire on the child. "Herself" might be a collection of needs which include healthcare and education and "the child" in this case, is her associates' political desires.
It ain't what you want it to be - sometimes it is what it is.
La Vonda R. Staples
On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 8:51 AM, Emeagwali, Gloria (History) < emeagwali@mail.ccsu.edu > wrote:
Lavonda,
That someone should be arguing against equality, whether in terms of gender,
racial or ethnic equality, in the 21st century, is shocking.
Gloria Emeagwali
www.ccsu.edu/afstudy/archive.html
www.africahistory.net
--
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--
La Vonda R. Staples
Adjunct Professor, Department of Social Sciences
Community College of the District of Columbia
314-570-6483
"It is the duty of all who have been fortunate to receive an education to assist others in the same pursuit."
--
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--
There is enough in the world for everyone's need but not for everyone's greed.
---Mohandas Gandhi
--
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Many non-Western, and specifically African or Nigerian, cultural standards and philosophical positions that have stood the test of time should also be used to legitimately querry and crossexamine WEstern models, ideas and practices; otherwise we relapse back to the impossible idea of the end to history.
------------------------ F. J. Kolapo,
(Associate Professor of African History)
History Department * University of Guelph * Guelph * Ontario * Canada* N1G 2W1
Phone:519/ 824.4120 ex.53212 Fax: 519.766.9516
From: "Farooq A. Kperogi" <farooqkperogi@gmail.com>
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 9:45:35 AM
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie
You are absolutely correct, Moses. I never understood La Vonda's intervention as an endorsement of gender inequality or as a denunciation of the quest for gender equality in Nigeria or anywhere else, as some people here seem to have done.
I understand her as inviting Chimamanda to:
1. think of what is often called "feminism's unfinished business" in the West, particularly the consequences of feminism's uncritical, unreflective celebration and adoption for the now much-maligned institution of marriage, motherhood, and the moral imperatives of reproductive futurism among women whose socio-historical experiences don't necessarily lend themselves to some of the impulses that actuate the more radical, misandrist constructs of so-called radical feminism.
2. realize that the innocuous patriarchal self-esteem (or, if you like, superbia) she ridicules in Nigerian men (such as the husband who insists on paying the family's rent even when the wife is economically better off) is actually now so scarce a cultural commodity in black America that it is highly prized by many black American women who have gained most of what Chimamanda seems to want for Nigeria women but who have lost the old-fashioned chivalry and "male responsibility" that was part of the bedrock of stable families in black America.
3. be conscious of the fact that her angst is mere vain, petit-bourgeois indulgence which, though perfectly legitimate, occludes the concerns of swaths of ordinary women who would not mind having husbands that are actually responsible and "culturally sensitive" enough to provide for their families, who are as unconcerned as the ordinary man about who becomes a governor, etc.
Although the point can be made that these thoughts are inspired by an instinctual capitulation to hegemonic patriarchal cultural narratives, they should not be silenced by "progressive" discursive tyranny. There is not just one way to appropriate our social reality.
Farooq
1 Park Place South
Suite 817C
Atlanta, GA, USA.
30303
Cell: (+1) 404-573-9697
Blog: www.farooqkperogi.blogspot.com
"The nice thing about pessimism is that you are constantly being either proven right or pleasantly surprised." G. F. Will
On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 11:02 PM, Moses Ebe Ochonu < meochonu@gmail.com > wrote:
LaVonda, thank you jare for standing up for marriage! Marriage is sometimes over-vilified by those who wish to make a case for the virtues of single womanhood or malehood and by those who seek to rightly make the point that marriage should not define a person's worth or identity. My problem is that, like Adichie did in her piece, they get overly defensive about it and make marriage seem like an antiquated marker of a simple, unremarkable life. Some of them even seem to want to make you apologize for being married. Adichie was out of line talking about her married friends in such a condescending manner. Their choice and all that comes with it is no less valid, sophisticated, and self-affirming than the choice that Adichie has made (so far): not to subject herself to the demands and obsequies of marriage.
On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 2:50 PM, Emeagwali, Gloria (History) < emeagwali@mail.ccsu.edu > wrote:
You have tilted the discussion slightly but this one is a good read. The initial discussion seemed to be about gender equality and the alleged negative contributions
of that quest to drug/alcohol addiction, singlehood, loneliness, unhappiness etc.
This one is about mainstream white feminist discourse vs what is sometimes dubbed 'womanist' discourse.
Cool.
GE
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com [mailto: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com ] On Behalf Of Lavonda Staples
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 2:03 PM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie
Dr. Gloria,
I am not arguing against anything. I'm trying to point out that the writing/opinions offered by Ms. Adichie are nearly the exact same verbiage espoused during the period leading up to failed attempts at an Equal Rights Amendment in the late 1960's and early 1970's. The rights and privileges, fulfillment of the United States Constitution, sought by those women were not aligned with the needs of common women. The forerunners of that movement, the most vocal and the most seen (i.e. Gloria Steinem) were White, privileged, and very far removed from the daily lives of women of color. There was no component which dealt with rights for Latina women who were at that time heavily involved in hand labour in sweat shops, agricultural labor in the Armerican west and southwest, or their access to medical and educational facilities. Concurrently, there was little attention paid to childcare for the increasing numbers of Black women who would go through the experience of motherhood either alone or with the help of an urban matriarchal system. Additionally, Black Americans faced the freedoms given by the Civil Rights Act of 1964 with agricultural and industrial skills. This was truly unfortunate as the advance into the techonological age had already been noted by the American president, Dwight D. Eisenhower (in his "Military Industrial Complex" speech) nearly 10 years prior. Added to that the chaos which marked the transition from the Civil Rights Era to the Black Power Movement and the rising action of the economic crisis which would soon engulf all Americans without regard to race or gender. The rhetoric of the women's movement was exceedingly injurious to Black families as the needs of White women really had nothing in common with the needs of Black and Hispanic women or families. Even up to 1974, Black women were waging fights for simple school houses in their communities (see, "Silver Rights" by Betty Curry - re: education in Sunflower County, Drew, MS). Black women bought into a debate which was not to their advantage. As late as 1974 Black men were still fighting for recognition within the AFL-CIO, the International Brotherhood of Teamsters, and the UAW (see, "Race, Reform and Rebellion..." by Manning Marable - re: A. Phillip Randolp and Bayard Rustin as paid voices against the causes of Black men in the UAW).
The problem with asking for gender equality between Black Americans at that time is that there was no racial or economic parity. So the tenets of feminism could not be applied and acted as a wedge between Black men and Black women. Until circa 1964, Blacks married and stayed married at higher rates or equal with Whites. The raison d'etre was survival as a community and, in the microcosm, as a family. The White feminist argument, at best, is a selfish individualistic argument (it's my turn, it's all about me, I need to be fulfilled, etc. and on and on). The arguments and debates from Hispanic and Black women was ALWAYS family centered, education as a route for improvement for family, medical access to improve pre-natal, neo-natal, and maternal care, safe and affordable childcare so that the FAMILY could prosper through working more hours or simply working outside of the home. Contemporarily, the authorship of White feminists STILL shows a clear line of demarcation with the very history of minority women. In the last ten years there have been titles such as, "The Second Shift," "The Sandwich Generation." Minority women have ALWAYS worked outside the home or had to pursue labor at home to gain extra funds. Minority women have ALWAYS taken care of parents out of respect and duty to the family system. So how in the world does White feminist rhetoric have any real world utilty to African, African American, and Latinas? It doesn't!
Ms. Adichie, in that short article, was talking very "white." She was speaking as if she had no knowledge of the situation in which her sisters live within. I stand on what I said just like John Henry - like a man who will not be moved: her statements as a celebrated, educated, woman of privilege reflect very little, if any real-world knowledge. They are dangerous to the point of sedition. And she does not demonstrate, not even in the modicum, a working knowledge of the immediate fight of every day needs of women. An immediate need of women in Lagos or Los Angeles, is not to become governor or even mayor. In my opinion, just one voice in six billion, she might listen to the proverb regarding putting out the fire on herself before she puts out the fire on the child. "Herself" might be a collection of needs which include healthcare and education and "the child" in this case, is her associates' political desires.
It ain't what you want it to be - sometimes it is what it is.
La Vonda R. Staples
On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 8:51 AM, Emeagwali, Gloria (History) < emeagwali@mail.ccsu.edu > wrote:
Lavonda,
That someone should be arguing against equality, whether in terms of gender,
racial or ethnic equality, in the 21st century, is shocking.
Gloria Emeagwali
www.ccsu.edu/afstudy/archive.html
www.africahistory.net
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "USA-Africa Dialogue Series" moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin.
For current archives, visit http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
For previous archives, visit http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
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--
La Vonda R. Staples
Adjunct Professor, Department of Social Sciences
Community College of the District of Columbia
314-570-6483
"It is the duty of all who have been fortunate to receive an education to assist others in the same pursuit."
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "USA-Africa Dialogue Series" moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin.
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For previous archives, visit http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
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--
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--
There is enough in the world for everyone's need but not for everyone's greed.
---Mohandas Gandhi
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "USA-Africa Dialogue Series" moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin.
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