i did not express myself well if i gave the impression that these
european notions of human rights did not exist, in alternative forms, in
africa, before the arrival of europeans. i am troubled that i somehow
gave that impression to everyone: i must had put it badly.
the point i wanted to make was that the european encounter entailed
aspects that africans could appropriate and turn to their advantage, and
did so, even under conditions of domination.
your phrasing of african forms of expression, of divisions of power, of
counterhegemonic speech, etc, are all great. maybe my only thought on
them is that they, too, were the product of their social conditions, and
also changed considerably as historical change occurred.
ken
On 6/29/11 8:50 PM, Olabode Ibironke wrote:
> Ken,
>
> I get your point and agree with the first section of your statement. I think
> that point, especially in the second section should be circumscribed a bit
> against deployments that could suggest concepts of freedom of dissemination
> and self expression came to be only through external intervention. I am
> wondering whether some of the things one could point to as unintended
> legacies of invasion or the positive appropriations of colonialist values
> might not be complicated by the fact that those appropriations took place or
> only became necessary as a result of the systemic and material
> transformations brought about by the invasions in the first place. Let us
> assume that the rights of women and the rights of the press where not
> necessary or applicable precolonially because of a more or less system of
> complimetarity of power and other indigenous mechanisms of power diffusion
> or re/distribution that colonialism not only displaced, but also provided
> new models of engagement to its autocracy and dualistic oppositionality,
> which some have argued constituted the very milieu of Nwapa and others. The
> loose coalitions and disparate centers of pre-colonial power produced a
> system in which the question was not whether one, humanly speaking, had the
> right to disseminate the truth, as was done with abandon under collective
> anonymity and immunity of hegemonic festivals, but whether the right to
> dissemination was channeled through the apparatuses of counterhegemonic
> centers or through the ultimate populist channels that festivals represent.
> In other words, concepts of freedom and expressiveness permeate subaltern
> history and the specific forms that those societies adopted today are the
> direct consequences of disruptions and impositions of colonial invasions. It
> is a different question if because these forms are more modern, they
> represent improvements in the modes of freedom and self expression.
>
> Bode
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of kenneth harrow
> Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 4:12 PM
> To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Imperiled Revolutions
>
> hi gloria
> i agree that the absence of moral authority makes the rhetorical reasons
> for invading sound hollow. they mostly are hollow.
> i couldn't begin to examine the moral authority of an invading force to
> judge the validity of the invasion.
> i want to turn it around and claim that nations always act on their own
> national interest. if a leader were not to do so, he or she would be
> booted out.
> so the question for me becomes, given that france and the u.s. and the
> u.k. are acting in libya for their own national interest, is the
> intervention itself something that i am happy is happening. and i mostly
> feel that ghaddafi should not have been allowed to quash the movements
> against his regime by the use of force.
> i wish there were a way we could lend support to the uprisings in syria
> and bahrein and yemen, the democracy movement in morocco, even in
> algeria. i find these movements enormously inspiring.
> i am skeptical that support for these movements will "install
> democracy." i am opposed to a model of african/arab/latin american
> peoples sitting around waiting for outsiders to install things into them.
> on the other hand, on both sides, that of the invaders and the invaded,
> there are complicated mixed motives for action. sometimes it might be a
> simple landgrab, but often the contradictions between rhetoric and
> actions point to mixed motives.
> i've only recently come to see this, that despite the oppression of
> colonialism africans took away from the encounter with the colonialists
> much that they wanted and were able to use to their advantage, included
> ideas about liberal human rights, gender rights, and so on. and some of
> this, maybe most of it, was despite colonial policies. for instance,
> colonial censorship was very severe, but the ideal of freedom of the
> press and rights of self-expression couldn't be extinguished, and they
> carry through today with journalists in africa some of the very bravest
> people on earth. in country after country that i follow, i see
> journalists on the firing line, and willing to risk jail or their lives.
> why is that?
> we in the west talk about freedom of the press. there is much we could
> criticize about murdoch's press as biased and worthless trash; but that
> ideal of a free press, especially in countries like cameroon and
> senegal, is lived at a much much higher level than i've ever seen in the
> u.s.
> basta
> thanks for your response and thoughts
> ken
> (by the way, to justify my comment about women's rights being something
> african women took to their advantage, i would offer the novels of
> nwapa, emecheta, mariama ba....the older women authors who set the stage
> for african women's writing, as testament to my claim. they themselves
> wrote about their experiences in schools when they were young that gave
> them a spirit of freedom. add aidoo to that list.
> another great example is wangrin by hampate ba, but that is another story)
> On 6/28/11 7:06 PM, Emeagwali, Gloria (History) wrote:
>> Ken, this time around I am merely the messenger, not the author,
>>
>> although I note your comments.
>>
>> Incidentally I disagree with your view that an invading power should not
> at least
>> have some semblance of moral authority and some 'locus standi'. Without
> that
>> its justification for invasion sounds hollow and it joins the league of
> blatant hypocrites.
>> To say that you, as a power, are invading to install democracy whilst
>>
>> your own government is undemocratic is weird. What do you think?
>>
>> Dr. Gloria Emeagwali
>> www.africahistory.net
>> www.esnips.com/web/GloriaEmeagwali
>> emeagwali@ccsu.edu
>> ________________________________________
>> From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
> [usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of kenneth harrow
> [harrow@msu.edu]
>> Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2011 5:51 AM
>> To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Imperiled Revolutions
>>
>> the binary postulated here is too neat. "Islam" is better written
>> "Islams." there are strong divisions in most countries in the middle
>> east, i believe, concerning more conservative versus more liberal
>> understandings of islam.
>> i think one could also argue that liberal secularism is also the product
>> of a relatively small segment of most societies around the world, with
>> differences. in the u.s. conservatives run against "secular humanism,"
>> and have managed to demonize it, for example. and the split here in
>> france is clearly along similar left-right divisions over liberal
>> secularism.
>> ken
>>
>> On 6/26/11 4:15 AM, Emeagwali, Gloria (History) wrote:
>>> Islam is embraced by the vast majority of the Middle East. The idea of a
> liberal secular republic is the vision of the bourgeoisie, professional
> elements among the middle strata, and the more organized and skilled
> sections of the working class. There is little doubt that the mosque
> provided an institutional foundation for opposition to secular authoritarian
> leaders - the Church took on a similar role in Eastern Europe under
> communism - and it makes sense that organizations like the Muslim
> Brotherhood should have a jump start on political organization in the
> post-revolutionary society.
>> --
>> kenneth w. harrow
>> distinguished professor of english
>> michigan state university
>> department of english
>> east lansing, mi 48824-1036
>> ph. 517 803 8839
>> harrow@msu.edu
>>
>> --
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--
kenneth w. harrow
distinguished professor of english
michigan state university
department of english
east lansing, mi 48824-1036
ph. 517 803 8839
harrow@msu.edu
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