agreed. but you know, the youth changed that quite a bit. and you also know that being in london is not like being in the sticks. the future will see a different england, heritage society people or not.
On 6/25/16 4:01 PM, Bode wrote:
All the analysis that put the cause of the brexit win to anti-immigration miss the point of Great Britain's historic ambivalence about whether it wants to be a part of Europe. Even as part of the EU, it protected its currency, passport and visa requirements, among other things. No matter what, that ambivalence would not go away easily or any time soon.
Bode
--On Sat, Jun 25, 2016 at 3:09 PM Mobolaji Aluko <alukome@gmail.com> wrote:
My People:
Oops!
You can now see buyers' remorse in the UK already, and the request for a second referendum because less than 75% voted and the winning vote was less than 60% - according to the petition demand!:
QUOTE
As more than a million people sign a petition for a second EU referendum we ask - could it actually happen?
Camilla Turner Michael Wilkinson25 JUNE 2016 • 3:57PM
A petition calling for a second EU referendum has reached over a million signatures, attracting the biggest surge of support Parliament's website has ever seen.
The author of the petition, William Oliver Healey, says the Government should re-stage the referendum because the winning vote for Leave was less than 60 per cent and was based on a turnout of less than 75 per cent.
But could this actually happen?
Professor Vernon Bogdanor, one of Britain's foremost constitutional experts said a second referendum is "highly unlikely".
He told The Telegraph: "I don't think the EU will wish to bargain any further, they will take this vote as final."
Prof Bogdanor, an expert in constitutional history at King's College London who was David Cameron's tutor at Oxford, warned that Governments will be "very careful" about calling for referendums in the future.
Professor John Curtice, whose exit poll was the only one to predict the Conservatives would win last year's general election, said the subject was so divisive within mainstream political parties and their supporters that it would be unlikely to form a campaigning issue for some time - let alone spark another public vote.
Thursday's referendum saw 17.4 million (51.9%) votes cast to leave the EU, compared with 16.1 million (48.1%) for remaining part of the bloc, with a turnout of 72.2%, according to the Electoral Commission.
In response, more than a million people have signed an online petition calling for the Government to implement a rule that "if the Remain or Leave vote is less than 60% based on a turnout less than 75%, there should be another referendum".
The petition passed the seven-figure landmark just over 24 hours after the referendum result was confirmed.
A petition calling for a second EU referendum
Prof Curtice said: "How many people voted in favour of Leave? Seventeen million. One million is chicken feed by comparison.
"It's no good people signing the petition now, they should have done it before. Even then, these petitions don't always mean a great deal.
"It has passed the 100,000 mark for it to be debated in Parliament. All that means is that some MPs will say, 'It's a terrible shame', others will say, 'Hallelujah'. Then that's the end of it.
"Mainstream political parties have been divided on Europe. The parties' supporters have been divided. Nobody is going to want to campaign prominently on this."
The professor of politics at the University of Strathclyde added: "If Boris Johnson is running the Government and if (disengagement from the EU) is taking a long time to be implemented, two years down the line we could have another poll showing people actually want to reverse the decision and remain in.
"Then there could be a situation where the opposition party in a general election have a mandate to hold a new referendum on it."
Is the referendum legally binding?
In theory, the Prime Minister could ignore the referendum result, put the question to a parliamentary debate and gamble on the majority of MPs voting to remain.
This is because parliament is sovereign and referendums are generally not binding in the UK.
Had the 2011 referendum on changing the electoral system to alternative vote been successful, the Government would have been obliged to change the law. However, no such provision was contained within the EU referendum legislation.
What is Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty and why is it important?
Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty states: "Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements".
Mr Cameron can decide when to invoke Article 50, which is the formal notification to the EU of Britain's decision to leave. He could still decide to ignore the vote and refuse to invoke it. However, in practise, this is very unlikely.
He has said in the past that he would have to trigger it immediately after a vote for Leave, although he could have been speaking figuratively to emphasise that the referendum was final.
On Saturday, the EU founding states called on Britain to "urgently" trigger Article 50 and begin the process of departure.
When will Britain actually leave the EU?
After invoking Article 50, Britain would have up to two years to negotiate their terms of exit. If they wanted any longer, all member states would need to unanimously agree to it.
Prof Bogdanor said that Article 50 is "deliberately designed to make it difficult to leave. The balance of power is with the other 27 member states."
He went on: "There are up to two years to negotiate. Unless there is unanimity, they can say 'these are our terms, take it or leave it'."
Senior EU officials have already said they want Britain to leave as soon as possible.
Jean-Claude Juncker, the president of the European commission, said "it doesn't make any sense to wait until October to try to negotiate the terms of their departure".
In an interview with Germany's ARD television station, he added: "I would like to get started immediately."
Will Britain ever be able to re-join the EU?
Yes. The final clause of Article 50 states: "If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49".
Article 49 of the Lisbon Treaty deals with the procedure for any countries wanting to join the EU, whether they have previously been members or not.It says that if a European state is committed to promoting the values of "human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality, the rule of law and respect for human rights" then it may apply to become a member of the Union.
Following an application, the European Council would have to unanimously agree to Britain re-joining, after consulting with the Commission and receiving assent of the European Parliament. The decision would then need to be ratified by all member states.
UNQUOTE
As I wrote below, I still believe that every major referendum of IDEAS - not on persons - should be measured against some super-majority number, with some cooling-off period, and a provision for a second referendum if certain thresholds are not met.
Bolaji Aluko--
On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 11:55 PM, Mobolaji Aluko <alukome@gmail.com> wrote:
Kenneth:
This is what is very worrying over an issue as important as this: even in 10 people more had voted to "Brexit" rather than to "Bremain", we would still be talking about a Brexit move.
I would have thought that a SUPER-MAJORITY clause should have been given to this - that unless a difference like 10% - or even 15% - was achieved, the 43-year-old status quo should be maintained. Is that not what is done, when 2/3 majority or 4/5 majority is required rather than simple majority? Or that if the vote is within 5%, a five-year breathing period will be provided, and a re-vote taken, after which a simple majority would be allowed?
But that is spilled milk now....
Bolaji Aluko
On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 12:56 PM, kenneth harrow <harrow@msu.edu> wrote:
the masses? are the majority the masses, and the losers the important people? the vote was 52% to 48%. i'd say it was largely split. it would be interesting to know that roughly the 16 million voters who lost were all the important people!
On 6/24/16 3:12 AM, Chidi Anthony Opara wrote:
All the important persons pleaded for votes to remain in the European Union in the "UK Decides", yet the UK will leave because the most important persons, the masses want UK to leave.
CAO
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