samuel is always so thoughtful. makes me want to chew on what you said, figure out how i feel about it, and join the conversation.
thanks
k
(that image about seeing someone halfway down from the towers is amazing)
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
517 803-8839
harrow@msu.edu
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Samuel Zalanga <szalanga@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2019 4:31:15 PM
To: USAAfricaDialogue
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Christianity in Nigeria's Igboland : Paradox of Creativity and Destruction: Creatively Transformative Effects of Christianity in Igbo Culture: A Debate
Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2019 4:31:15 PM
To: USAAfricaDialogue
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Christianity in Nigeria's Igboland : Paradox of Creativity and Destruction: Creatively Transformative Effects of Christianity in Igbo Culture: A Debate
This is a very excellent observation. Some good answers to that question are Peter Berger's "The Sacred Canopy" and Emile Durkheim's "The Elementary Forms of Religious Life." The parts create the whole or the whole comes out of the parts, but once the whole comes into existence, it develops a life of its own. The parts end up deriving their meaning from the whole. The individuals come and go but the whole develops a life that is more than any one single individual. It develops a kind of transcendence over and above the individual. Of course at particular historical junctures, there can be rupture which can lead a "paradigm shift" in thinking.
Samuel
I remember seeing a film called "The Quarrel" where two believers of Judaism debated the existence of God given their experience with the holocaust. But we should remember that as discussed Susan Kwilecki with empirical evidence in her book "Becoming Religious," how someone ends up believing in a Divine Being or faith tradition is not just about the tradition but the state of mind of the person deciding to believe. In this respect, there is scientific, authoritarian and mystical modes of making knowledge claims. Religion falls under the mystical. The mystical mode of knowing is not just about the body of knowledge or religious tradition but also the state of mind of the believer. Two people can be presented with the same kind of religious knowledge but depending on their state of mind, one might be moved to believe and the other not believing.
There is a documentary titled "Faith and Doubt on Ground Zero" which is a Public Broadcasting Corporation documentary film on 9/ 11 and the collapse of the Twin Towers in New York City. In the documentary film, there is a section where someone took a jump from one of the top floors of the Twin Towers to the ground when he though that was the only option. A photographer captured the picture of the person when he was in mid-air before crashing on the ground. One person saw it and said that seeing that reality made him to believe in God. Another in the documentary saw it and said, he used to believe in God but when he saw the picture of the man in mid-air, he decided to stop believing. So a person's state of mind is a critical component of the believing aspect of any religion.
As Ken said, and this is supported in the literature, I do not think anyone can come with a final say about who God is. Some in an effort to control God reduced him to a mathematical equation that they have solved. So they can tell you what God is thinking on Thursday, 11 p.m., on March 21st. Others see him as a mystery. But when one reads "A History of God" by Karen Armstrong, it is obvious that anything that humans can say about God depends on their experience with him. But humans are finite in terms of their experience. We live in different historical times, and even at the same historical time, in different social-cultural context, which means to the extent that each of us will talk about God, we can only talk about him to the extent of our experience with him in our specific contexts. Understanding God in the ancient times is not the same as during the Enlightenment or in India, China or precolonial Africa.
People can have an understanding of God within their communities at particular historical times and junctures, but no one single human can claim a total understanding of God, because the human being has limited experience. And in any case, as Bishop Desmond Tutu asked an interviewer in a documentary titled "Nobelity," if you (i.e., the interviewer) assume based on your question, that God is a Christian, what was his religion before Christianity which is just over 2000 years old. The journalist was obviously surprised by Tutu's question.
The more I study religion, the more I feel humbled. I may disagree with things in it, and you and Ken have highlighted excellent examples of things one can disagree with about religion, but it is too deep in human existence that once cannot dismiss it. Human life is about meaning. But meaning as people talk about it has many dimensions: semantic, indicative, and significance. Is the meaning of life something just about semantic meaning of meaning, or is meaning something indicative about life, or is meaning about significance of life or about all?
Samuel
Samuel Zalanga
Bethel University
Department of Anthropology, Sociology and Reconciliation Studies,
Bethel University, 3900 Bethel Drive, #24, Saint Paul, MN 55112.
Office Phone: 651-638-6023
On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 4:31 AM Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju <toyin.adepoju@gmail.com> wrote:
thanks ken.
religion is defined by myth.
bottom line- religions are ideologies that people shape and that shape people.
to what degree is the believer to be disentangled from their religion in trying to describe that religion?
--On Thu, 21 Mar 2019 at 03:48, Harrow, Kenneth <harrow@msu.edu> wrote:
--hi toyinthere are many parts, and it is a mistake, in my view, to try to harmonize all of them. the same god is described in many many different ways. i personally think we have an amalgamation of different gods, over time, that coalesce around the figure called god--or to be more accurate, called by many different names. like all religious traditions, over time, various texts are incorporated, with time made canonical, etc.as for what is central to judaism, many of us would not agree that the promised land and chosen people are what is central at all. for instance, abraham's sacrifice of isaac has a certain centrality to the belief; or the story of moses leading the israelites out of egypt and through the wilderness, receiving the 10 commandments, all that has a centrality., you are aware that the bible (the jewish bible, we call the torah) ends before the israelites enter into the promised land.as for good and bad parts, there are zillions, which no one today really can swallow (like killing all the egyptian first born so as to convince pharaoh to let the israelites go).if you take the torah's story more as a mythos than a literal set of historical events, you'd find it more profitable, i would sayken
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
517 803-8839
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju <toyin.adepoju@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2019 8:17 PM
To: usaafricadialogue
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Christianity in Nigeria's Igboland : Paradox of Creativity and Destruction: Creatively Transformative Effects of Christianity in Igbo Culture: A DebateKen,
How is 'religion' different from 'religious ideas'?
the idea of a promised land and a chosen people are central to Judaism, but they are entwined in the same text with genocidal dictates from the same deity described as choosing those people and promising them land which it turned out they had to bloodily dispossess others to take over.
are all these not part of the same package?
--On Wed, 20 Mar 2019 at 23:12, Harrow, Kenneth <harrow@msu.edu> wrote:
--i very much like samuel's phrasing "trying to look into a deep abyss"it seemed to me that when sufism was born in the first millenium, its zikr, its chanting and dancing and trancing, did just that. other monks had their ways to do this looking as well.
i set this profundity, and all its moving images, metaphors, against the moralism that has animated jihads and crusades.
the latter weighs on us; the former liberatesken
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
517 803-8839
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Samuel Zalanga <szalanga@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2019 3:39 PM
To: USAAfricaDialogue
Cc: Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Christianity in Nigeria's Igboland : Paradox of Creativity and Destruction: Creatively Transformative Effects of Christianity in Igbo Culture: A DebateThere is much in religious studies research to support the lines of reasoning highlighted in Professor Harrow's insightful commentary. Religion can be used for both good and bad, "it all depends"-- the title of one poem.--
The theology of any religion has to be understood in social, cultural and historical contexts and definitely one cannot as he clarified understand a religion fully by just examining the formal theological beliefs. Context matters.
In my assessment, understanding religion is like trying to look into a deep abyss. There is so much deep down there. Depending on context, no religion is totally immune from being used for violence just as it can be used for good. It all depends.
Samuel
Samuel ZalangaBethel University
Department of Anthropology, Sociology and Reconciliation Studies,Bethel University, 3900 Bethel Drive, #24, Saint Paul, MN 55112.Office Phone: 651-638-6023
On Wed, Mar 20, 2019 at 1:52 PM Harrow, Kenneth <harrow@msu.edu> wrote:
i don't think the theology of any religion can be usefully studied as a source for the actual practices, and values, of its iteration within a given society. when i was young, i thought buddhism, and religions similar to it, zen, hinduism etc, were ideas. then when i learned about its actual practices when incorporated into dominant social groups, i learned better. people, a quick wiki search of the conflicts in places in burma, sri lanka, elsewhere, should quickly disabuse you of the notion that one faith community is better than another--when it is in power.
muslims are nowadays slammed for fundamentalist and militant varieties; but muslims are more victims than executioners in places like china or india where they are minority. we jews have always preached ideologies of ideal social practices; then along came the zionist beliefs that now are used to oppress palestinians.where we might be victims of antisemitic hatred in france or the united states, we see our brethren generate oppressive policies towards arabs, even those in israel.how about christians: ever hear of the 100 years war, or the troubles in ireland, or the inquisition.and an honest account of religious conflicts in africa would remove idealistic dreams that african are different.
the problem is not religion. it is the aggressive nature of humans, and the short memories of those who had previously been victims of prejudice. power pass power, said ken saro-wiwa; power pass power enables those with guns to rule over others, to enslave and exploit them. for all the beautiful sentiments, turn the other cheek, god will reward the just, etc etc, the real features of human practices mean people use religious ideology to justify their desire to rule over others. and if you can read along with nietzsche on the sweetness of peaceful beliefs, they too are tools to conquer those who are stronger.
perhaps there is a flip side to this, where the encouragement to live a decent life is enhanced by religions as well. i can believe that too. it's just that the combat for a better life for all doesn't come through religion, the faults do not lie in religion, they lie with the uses of human power, and it is in that sphere of power, political and military, that our real combat needs to take place.ken
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
517 803-8839
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju <toyin.adepoju@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2019 10:00 AM
To: usaafricadialogue
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Christianity in Nigeria's Igboland : Paradox of Creativity and Destruction: Creatively Transformative Effects of Christianity in Igbo Culture: A Debatebut are we to deny this complex history?
On Wed, 20 Mar 2019 at 14:51, Emeagwali, Gloria (History) <emeagwali@ccsu.edu> wrote:
This is what some religions may do to you.Your entire life becomes an apology - from dawn to dusk, and your mothers and fathers and yourself terrified by threats of hellfire and eternal damnation, to paraphrase Biko. You become an easy prey to pedophilia - and even genocide, should the history of the Americas be used as a cautionary tale. But you cannot see this unless you are outside the box. Buddhism is more inspiring.
Professor Gloria Emeagwali
Professor of History and African Studies
Central Connecticut State University
africahistory.net
2019 NYASA Distinguished Africanist Awardee
From: 'Michael Afolayan' via USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2019 11:00:27 PM
To: usaafricadialogue; usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Christianity in Nigeria's Igboland : Paradox of Creativity and Destruction: Creatively Transformative Effects of Christianity in Igbo Culture: A DebateI'm confused! The conclusions consistently contradict their own premises. Am I missing something? Help me out here, Oluwatoyin.Michael
On Tuesday, March 19, 2019, 12:20:53 PM GMT+1, Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju <toyin.adepoju@gmail.com> wrote:
If you are an Igbo twin, and you hate Christianity, you are a 'bornfool'! Christianity would have allowed you to be thrown into the evil forest of your village.
If your family was ohu (slave), and you hate Christianity, you are very 'iberibed'! Christianity would have allowed you to be buried alive as you escort a titled man to the other world.
If you cut your upper teeth first, and you hate Christianity, you a first-class efulefu! Christianity would have allowed you to be dumped in the evil forest of your village or sold to Aro slave dealers.
If you have children who are not up to two years apart, and you hate Christianity, you are a cow head! Christianity would have allowed your younger child to be sold to Aro slave dealers.
If you did not walk before three years, and you hate Christianity, ibu okpo! Christianity would have allowed your people destroy you.
If you suffer from diabetes, liver and/or kidney problems... and you hate Christianity, you are not just efulefu, you are 'efoolefool' (a-fool-a-fool). Christianity would have allowed you be a candidate for dumping in the evil forest at death.
If you as a woman started seeing your period too early, and you hate Christianity, you are an unfortunate aturu. Christianity would have allowed you to be sold to Aro slave dealers.
Before you hate Christianity, make sure this same Christianity is not the reason why you are alive and free today, lest Karma remembers your house address. Anyone trying to make you believe that Christianity came with no good might just be a former Aro slave dealer or a former priest in charge of your village evil forest, please, run from such 😎😎😎
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