A response to the previous comments before the latest by Olayinka and Ken.
Great thanks, my people.
Great thanks, my people.
Gloria, my ancient Egyptian is limited to my exposure through the astonishing scope and creativity demonstrated by the integration of ancient Egyptian myth and ritual into Western esotericism, a synthesis introduced to me by Israel Regardie's The Tree of Life A Study in Magic, with this integration reaching its height in Regardie's edited The Teachings, Rites and Ceremonies of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, one of the most influential works in Western esotericism, a book that rivals such texts as the Bible and the Upanishads and outdoes them by describing contemplative and ritual techniques for reaching the spiritual realities they celebrate, while the others largely limit themselves to the poetic celebrations.
One needs to go to the ancient Egyptian sources, of course, to experience the originating inspiration for oneself.
I shall check out the Westcar papyrus and the Egyptian kherheb.
One needs to go to the ancient Egyptian sources, of course, to experience the originating inspiration for oneself.
I shall check out the Westcar papyrus and the Egyptian kherheb.
I would like to better appreciate your views on methodology.
Western civilization as it exists today is not adequately understandable without its feeding by slavery and colonialism, so I'm not privileging the West as composed of exceptional humans who achieved purely through their own native powers.
We need to ask ourselves, though, how people from one part of the world were able to dominate others, an answer to which question might lead back to faster development of mechanized weapons such as the machine gun, and further back, to the invention of the printing press, enabling faster and broader dissemination of knowledge, and social developments that facilitated such inventions.
We need to ask ourselves, though, how people from one part of the world were able to dominate others, an answer to which question might lead back to faster development of mechanized weapons such as the machine gun, and further back, to the invention of the printing press, enabling faster and broader dissemination of knowledge, and social developments that facilitated such inventions.
Thanks, Ken. May we achieve brilliant work on Ogboni work as you hope. This group has contributed a lot to my work on Ogboni through these debates. I shall be linking them in my compilations of the work as central aspects of the project.
It was the challenge from Olayinka and another group member to one of my posts that ignited the project in the first place, something I conceived in a one line statement about ten years ago and did not pursue, only for it to grow in the background as its current emergence under that stimulus seems to suggest.
I will read Rovelli since you recommend him so highly.
True, unnecessarily invoking race conflict is unhelpful. When relevant, though, one could profitably engage the sociology, politics and economics of science, particularly in its intersections with the complexities of relative influence between cognitive traditions, thereby examining such live issues as the developments of science in relation to gender, class and race- the place of women and minorities in science across cultures, the growing visibility of women in science in the West as contrasted with earlier centuries, the rising ascendancy of Asians, the place of African and Native-Americans in global impact science, of various peoples within their own continents, the educational, economic, family and larger social systems that influence all these configurations, are central to the complete picture.
I will read Rovelli since you recommend him so highly.
True, unnecessarily invoking race conflict is unhelpful. When relevant, though, one could profitably engage the sociology, politics and economics of science, particularly in its intersections with the complexities of relative influence between cognitive traditions, thereby examining such live issues as the developments of science in relation to gender, class and race- the place of women and minorities in science across cultures, the growing visibility of women in science in the West as contrasted with earlier centuries, the rising ascendancy of Asians, the place of African and Native-Americans in global impact science, of various peoples within their own continents, the educational, economic, family and larger social systems that influence all these configurations, are central to the complete picture.
The best we can do perhaps, as you suggest, is to invoke these when necessary, and focus on science ideas and work alone when necessary.
It is in the context of relative influence between cognitive traditions that I appreciate this point by Olayinka:
"In the final analysis, it is reformulation along the same trajectory and tradition when theories with better explanatory force were invented and accepted. These reformulations excluded sub- Saharan African ways of imagining what 'western science' explained in a particular mode. And that is the crux of the matter. A question of representation -whose representation and not who is doing the representation nor the geographical background of the person doing the representation ( be they Asians or Yoruba or Russian.)"
although the person doing the representation is vital bcs they could favour frames of thought privileged within cultures they are familiar with.
Thus, it may be argued, as Olayinka has stated, that the Big Bang theory is a reformulation of the big bang of Genesis, although one must also note that that was not the only theory in contention, the other, the Steady State theory, describing a cosmos that did not begin at any particular point in time, was a rival, with the name Big Bang actually coined by a critic of the theory, Fred Hoyle, who supported the Steady State theory.
Physics luminary Roger Penrose' relatively recent cyclical universe theory, however, was centuries ago prefigured in Asian cosmology, although I dont know if the older, mythic version influenced him.
I wonder if large scale scientific concepts, such as that of energy, do not resonate with ideas from different non-scientific contexts, as with ase of the Yoruba.
Physics luminary Roger Penrose' relatively recent cyclical universe theory, however, was centuries ago prefigured in Asian cosmology, although I dont know if the older, mythic version influenced him.
I wonder if large scale scientific concepts, such as that of energy, do not resonate with ideas from different non-scientific contexts, as with ase of the Yoruba.
To what degree is it true that 'These reformulations excluded sub- Saharan African ways of imagining'?
How different from these African ways were the scientific models that became dominant?
thanks
toyin
On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 at 01:12, OLAYINKA AGBETUYI <yagbetuyi@hotmail.com> wrote:
--Ken:
Let me add that as much as I support your view of the nationality spread and ideological diversity of the works leading to what is today's view of physics, they were all working on the continuum of western science from its Greco- Roman origins as Toyin Adepoju understands it..
I have read one or two of the view of physics as you outline in the past twenty years as I have once posted like Michio Kaku and the End of Science (Hogarth).
I know that in fits and starts and with gaps the atomic theory is a reformulation of (Greek philosopher) Spinoza's theory of the monads. I also know that it was because it was found unsatisfactory for 20th century questions of mind and matter duality that theorists moved closer to that resolution in the reformulation of quantum physics that took place. Also in the 1000 years lacuna that was created by the ascendancy of Christian thought its creation myth ( in Genesis) that supplanted Greco- Roman thought gave rise to the big bang theory of the cosmos with a stretching out of 7 days to 4 to 6 billion years with a mathematical remodeling and the knocking out of the idea of God to be replaced by gases that exploded into solar systems ( and I have taught American students the implications of these insights.)
So those saying science is a religion that replaced traditional religion are in fact right as both are deliberate acts of myth making. All that Steven Hawkins did was extemporate on the implications of this scientific myth making.
In the final analysis it is reformulation along the same trajectory and tradition when theories with better explanatory force were invented and accepted. These reformulations excluded sub- Saharan African ways of imagining what 'western science' explained in a particular mode. And that is the crux of the matter. A question of representation -whose representation and not who is doing the representation nor the geographical background of the person doing the representation ( be they Asians or Yoruba or Russian.)
OAA
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------From: "Harrow, Kenneth" <harrow@msu.edu>Date: 02/07/2020 22:09 (GMT+00:00)To: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Classics in Ogboni Studies :Babatunde Lawal, Philosopher of Ogboni
toyin adepojui mostly agree w you, but would probably frame it slightly differently. to share, i have been reading work on physics for the past two years, most of which provide the broad overview of the development of physics leading to the key fields of relativity and quantum in the twentieth century. the most exciting, after hawking's groundbreaking Brief History, are books by rovelli [Rovelli, Carlo. 2014. The Order of Time. New York: Riverhead Books.--2017. Reality Is Not What It Seems. New York: Riverhead Books.], and then some vast overviews like Kip Thorne's Black Holes and Time Warps; some bracing philosophy of science, [Michael North, What Is the PResent] Richard Muller's The Physics of Time, and more, works by Sean Carroll (From Eternity to Here) and Brian Greene (The Fabric of the Cosmos).
the work of physics is astounding, and in the accounts, especially rovelli, that are most compelling, you see amazing stuff come from the greeks. Their heirs, especially after the romans, were stopped dead by the church for 1000 years, or more. When copernicus and then especially galileo got to start again, the work leading to what you outline, got serious...leading to newton. all these accounts trace how the Classic Physics got started, culminating in Newton, and then finally got supplanted by relativity and quantum with the work of great european scientists of the 19th and early 20th c.
after midcentury, germans and russians, working with english and danish physicists, gave us the heart of quantum, leading finally to more andmore work done in america, with oppenheimer, with einstein ane thorne and all the collaborators of their teams. great indian mathematicians, bose and chandrasekhar especially etc.
the teams became increasingly fed by asian scientists, as you note.
that last sentence is even truer of today. perhaps the majority of physics students in advanced universities are asian.
the notion that this science, and those who fed into it, are "western," never arises in any of the many books i read, where the authors are not interrested in proving any eurocentric claims. much of the great work of the mid twentieth century involved russians, who had to struggle against stalin; or americans, who had to struggle against the anti-commuinist mania of the cold war in the u.s. they killed off the work of oppenheimer, thanks to the insanity of the red scare. of course the play of the nazis was critical in the u.s. becoming the center after wwII.
i am writing this note only to suggest that it iis unprofitable to apply issues of contention with eurocentrism at every turn; and here in particular. the best of science and of human thought takes the work and ideas from any of the great minds that care to contribute; and resists ideological denigrations of categories of people; scorns racisms and -centrisms of any kind. the hell that stalin and hitler iinstalled was an obstacle, like that of the inquisiition, and the red scare was hardly any better, wiith teller undermining anyone he thought was leftist.
when i read these histories--as an africanist--i don't see the struggle of mid century physics in the cold war as involving "the west" as any kind of meaningful entity. it's irrelevant, i should say.
once we dump it, we can proceed to brilliant work on ogboni thought without a need to see it as countering anything.
ken
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
517 803-8839
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju <toyin.adepoju@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 12:27 PM
To: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Classics in Ogboni Studies : Babatunde Lawal, Philosopher of Ogboni----Great thanks, Gloria, for that fine list of texts and scholars, which I will visit, a summation vital as a reading list.
I am not arguing the Western world singlehandedly created the scientific and technological advances I highlight. They were fed from different cultural and geographical streams and even shaped, at times, by people from outside the West, as in immigrants to the 20th century US being crucial to shaping the Information Revolution and South African immigrant to the US Elon Musk building a pioneering civilian rocket system.
I understand the West, however, to be the crucible for the 17th Century Scientific Revolution, the 19th century Industrial Revolution and the 20th century Information Revolution.
I am pleased to examine contrastive perspectives on this.
thanks
toyin
On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 at 16:01, Gloria Emeagwali <gloria.emeagwali@gmail.com> wrote:
Follow up
I want to add to the list of texts mentioned, Chimakonam's EZUMEZU. As I pointed outin a Choice Review:
Ezumezu, the philosophical system of ideas expounded, is aimed at decentering and replacing"the Aristotelian Greco-European logocentric view of reason" with a system of logic that is inspired byAfrican ontological realities and dynamism, thus providing "a foundation for African philosophy."The final chapter focuses on "epistemicide" and the destruction of Africanepistemologies as well as Christian missionary collaboration with the colonialists to achieve this end.The text shines a brilliant spotlight on African knowledge, philosophy, andintellectual endogeneity from one of Africa's leading philosophers. (Modified Abstract)
But you have to decenter the eurocentric approach from various disciplines and perspectivessimultaneously. I appreciate the way Feyerabend does this from within the belly of the beastand from within the history of science. That is why I make reference to his works.George Sefa Dei does it from within Indigenous Knowledge epistemology and education,Bewaji from philosophy, Biko does it from criminology and law, Bangura from mathematics; Van Sertima,Molefi Asante, Chilisa and Diop got us to rethink methodology;Joseph Inikori from economics.George James in Stolen Legacy points to the real foundation of Greek philosophy. It is a long list.I have tried to do it from history and AIK along with several historians of Africa, none the leastToyin Falola, our distinguished moderator.
The Western world did not singlehandedly build the modern technologies you cited and I shallcertainly revisit that issue, so this is not the last of my responses to your brilliant rejoinder.
Gloria Emeagwali--
On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 9:06 AM Gloria Emeagwali <gloria.emeagwali@gmail.com> wrote:
Who is the real father of African Studies?Definitely not Mudimbe.He is not even onthe list and one wonders how Kenarrived at that conclusion. Is there anyreason why Diop, his predecessoris ignored?
But how about Edward Blyden?In 1887 he wrote Christianity,Islam and the Negro Race;West Africa before the Europeans in1905 and about twenty books.Then there are William LeoHansberry, Du Bois, Rogers,Schomburg, John Hendrik Clarke etc.a few decades later.
"Well I was only referring to therecent era not the earlier one"
Ok. Got your point. How aboutCheikh Anta Diop, author ofPrecolonial Black Africa in 1987,one year BEFORE Mudimbe'sInvention of Africa!Come tothink of it Falola is a moreappropriate candidate giventhe number of books produced,his publishing house and vast numberof scholars in the field thathe has worked with.
"Well I was only looking for someonewho spoke French and English"
Really? In that case it's back toDiop.
Gloria Emeagwali
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 22, 2020, at 7:30 AM, 'Michael Afolayan' via USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> wrote:
"the field of contemporary african studies was built on (Mudumbe)'s work . . ." (kh)
Really? First of all, I duff my hat in the direction of all of you who have read and fully understood Mudumbe's work(s). I have failed miserably in that area but it probably has nothing to do with the great philosopher. I still hail the depth of his intellect. Indeed, Parables & Fables is one of the most prominent classics in my library in Nigeria. But if I may ask, Ken, why would V.Y. Mudumbe be the "father of African Studies", just to paraphrase you? Where does that live the likes of Jan Vansina, M.J. Herskovits, D.P. Kunene, Philip Curtin, A.C. Jordan, L. Harries, and the list goes on and on . . .? But that is not the issue. . .
I think the counsel that Dr. Ogundiran offered Toyin in his first critique of Toyin's work is quite solid and critical in terms of the need to reach out to practicing Ogboni members with humility so as to gain a phenomenological insight into the meaning of their practice so he would not be misconstrued as an armed-chair investigator and he would be able to provide an organic analysis because the "mother's milk is sweet", the anthem of the Ogbonis is no gimmick. As the Yorba say, "No one can know the mother of Ošo, the child, more than the child itself." If Toyin would adhere to that counsel, his work on the Ogbonis could be as ground-breaking as Marcel Griaule's Conversation with Ogotemmeli, that was the single counsel the Griaule's team followed and broke the ground for the world's knowledge of the much-acclaimed Dongon cosmology today. I happen to know a member of his team at Yale, the late John Middleton, and he would be the first to tell you that you cannot truly grasp, let alone interpret, the meaning of a culture and the phenomenal nuances that surround it when you only read about it, and your analysis or interpretation would always be warped if it fails to align with what the practitioners of that culture consider as its meaning/s!
Keep it up, Oluwatoyin!
Michael
--On Sunday, June 21, 2020, 5:13:26 PM EDT, Harrow, Kenneth <harrow@msu.edu> wrote:
toyin is correct; it has to do wiith the place of disciplines within discourse. i doon't know if i have to will to refute gloria's denigration of mudimbe. i don't think you get him. not sure what good it would do to defend him.. as far as i am concerned, th field of contemporary african studies was built on his work, with that of others who were foundational to postcoloniialism at the time--bhabha and spivak, then mudimbe, then mbembe -- the trajectory is clear.
ken
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
517 803-8839
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Gloria Emeagwali <gloria.emeagwali@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2020 4:55 PM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Classics in Ogboni Studies : Babatunde Lawal, Philosopher of OgboniWell by the time you are done withMudimbe, you may start to questionthe great project you are embarkingon, and abandon it. He is a masterof spin. For focusingon Ogboni Studies he may label youan ethnocentric - and shame youinto silence.--
He dismisses Blyden, Diop, Obengaand all the great pan Africanists, witharguments that cater for aparticular demographic - with aquestionable agenda. Blydenis his punching bag.
The Eurocentricsactually love Mudimbebecause he createsa vacuum for them to fill.
This is somewhat speculative butI won't be surprised ifto the Black Lives Matter movementhe retorted "all lives matter"-in total distortion of the gravityand organizational necessitiesof the here and now, in thismoment of resistance againstpolice brutality. He would probablyreject the logical construct:
All Lives MatterBlack people have LivesTherefore Black Lives Matter
Don't get me wrong. I recognizeMudimbe's profound understandingof colonialist historiography.Heeven critiques some Eurocentric worksthat only a master of the Frenchand Belgian archiveswould come across,and provides unforgettable,illuminating, intellectual insightsand contributions to epistemology-but his frequent dismissalof Black identity, indirectly orotherwise, is suspect.
With intentional oraccidental sleight ofhand, this erudite philosopherof Romance Languages andLiterature, often underminesthe Black people who speak forthemselves.
Professor Gloria EmeagwaliVimeo.com/gloriaemeagwali
On Jun 21, 2020, at 2:42 PM, Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju <toyin.adepoju@gmail.com> wrote:
i get the impression that ken is addressing mudimbe's general idea of the construction of africa as a field of study in western discourse, an orientation he perhaps sees akin's post as projecting in terms of seeking to let african discourses speak for and define themselves
toyin
--On Sun, 21 Jun 2020 at 18:44, Gloria Emeagwali <gloria.emeagwali@gmail.com> wrote:
Mudimbe's texts are largely--historiographical/methodologicaland focus very peripherally onYoruba culture, if at all, in my view,but correct me if I am missing outsomething specific.
Symbols and the interpretationof the African past;Which idea of Africa;The power of theGreek paradigm; and Domesticationand the Conflict of memories -constitute the agenda for "The ideaOf Africa."
In "The Invention of Africa"he begins with: Discourse of Powerand Knowledge; Questions of Method;The Power of Speech; Blyden'slegacy and questions; and thepatience of philosophy.His West African bibliographicreferences are scanty and so, too,overall content- heavily inspiredby Central African realities.
GE
On Jun 21, 2020, at 11:59 AM, Harrow, Kenneth <harrow@msu.edu> wrote:
well, the key key key text, The Invention of Africa. changed the field, as far as i am concerned. then the sequel, The Idea of Africa.k
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
517 803-8839
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Gloria Emeagwali <gloria.emeagwali@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2020 11:53 AM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Classics in Ogboni Studies : Babatunde Lawal, Philosopher of OgboniWhich of Mudimbe's books--are you referring to, Ken?
GE--
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 21, 2020, at 5:09 AM, Harrow, Kenneth <harrow@msu.edu> wrote:
dear akin, i love your answer. surprised, when you got to the limiits of the discipline, that you didn't cite mudimbe, the sage on this topic.ken
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
517 803-8839
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Akin Ogundiran <ogundiran@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2020 9:06 PM
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Classics in Ogboni Studies : Babatunde Lawal, Philosopher of Ogboni--Hello Chika, Thank you for the reference. I reread David Doris's book not too long ago and I didn't see anything he said about the Ogboni that is troubling or that goes against Thompson's cool aesthetics. The latter is a metatheory that Thompson applied to both the African and African Diaspora art (not just the Yoruba). Toyin should indeed read Vigilant Things so that he can reach his own conclusion on this.--
One problem with many of our studies is that when we approach African institutions from the narrow view of a discipline, we reduce them to the limitation of that discipline (whether it's art history or physics). "Ogboni aesthetics" is one example of this reductionist tendency.
Toyin, I admire your efforts in seeking knowledge about the Ogboni but I encourage you to make efforts to visit the Ogboni members and their iledi. Doing so might show you that this is not as exotic as you are making it to be. But for you to gain that access, you must be ready to practice what a colleague of mine called "epistemic humility." I have had the opportunity and privilege of speaking with Ogboni members, and visiting Ogboni houses in the course of my research. I've also been to the US Congress for closed door meetings, and visited some of the most admirable but highly restricted institutions in the Western world. I don't see the difference between them and the Ogboni. Everyone in a community knows the members of the Ogboni. They know Apena, Olurin, Erelu, etc. It is lack of knowledge that would make anyone think that Ogboni is an exotic institution, the unknowable, the Other. This is what the British colonial institution taught us to believe. You know why? Because the Ogboni was an underground resistance to colonialism, the same way that the Ogboni resisted "foreign" domination in their communities for centuries. For example, the Egba resistance against the Oyo Empire in the late eighteenth century would not have been possible and successful without the Ogboni. It is sad that our colonizers (White Nationalists) succeeded in their war of mental dislocation which then leads to ignorance. And many of us are still perpetuating that ignorance. There is nothing more secretive about the Ogboni than any other institution anywhere, committed to governance, indigenous rights, and self determination. If it is that secretive, how come Babatunde Lawal, Henry Drewal, Rowland Abiodun, and David Doris (all art historians-Caucasian and Black), among others, know so much (and share so much) about the Ogboni?
Akin OgundiranUNC Charlotte
On Friday, June 19, 2020 at 7:09:05 PM UTC-4, Chika Okeke-Agulu wrote:On current Ogboni research, you might want to check the ongoing work of David T. Doris at Michigan. His Vigilant Things: On Thieves, Yoruba Anti-Aesthetics, and the Strange Fates of Ordinary Objects in Nigeria (2011) compellingly challenged Robert Farris Thompson's dominant "cool" aesthetic that for decades served as the primary code for understanding Yoruba Aesthetic; and I suspect that his research on Ogboni, based on years of understudying leading members of the Ogboni Society--from the little I have seen--will vigorously trouble current scholarly on the subject.Chika
On Friday, June 19, 2020 at 1:11:31 PM UTC-4, Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju wrote:
Classics in Ogboni StudiesBabatunde LawalPhilosopher of Ogboni
Babatunde Lawal surrounded by great works of Yoruba art, his field of study
Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju
Comparative Cognitive Processes and Systems
"Exploring Every Corner of the Cosmos in Search of Knowledge"
Abstract
An exploration of the insights of the work of art historian, art critic and art theorist Babatunde Lawal on the Yoruba origin Ogboni esoteric order in relation to developing a comprehensive grasp of its philosophy, as intrinsic to the order and in its integration within Yoruba thought.
Philosopher of Ogboni
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