kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
517 803-8839
harrow@msu.edu
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2020 5:19 PM
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Subject: RE: USA Africa Dialogue Series - To In Excelsis Gloria :
This message is eligible for Automatic Cleanup! (harrow@msu.edu) kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
517 803-8839
harrow@msu.edu
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Subject: RE: USA Africa Dialogue Series - To In Excelsis Gloria :
This message is eligible for Automatic Cleanup! (harrow@msu.edu) kenneth harrow
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michigan state university
517 803-8839
harrow@msu.edu
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Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - To In Excelsis Gloria :
Prof. Emeagwali
Though, a rather banal idea, that our ideological sympathies in many cases influence how we interpret what we read also needs to be factored into the discussion of these and any other religious texts. If this is warranted, then the adjectives misogyny, sadism, narcissism, and vindictiveness and violent could be simultaneously deployed in a positive and negative light depending on one ideological leaning. And here I am referring not to an opportunistic usage which I agree is common to religious merchants all over the world.
a little book that I have read addresses some of these issues well. It is titled God behaving Badly by David T. Lamb. It is written from the perspective of a believing Christian but is serious though easy to read. It has a different interpretation of Isaiah and many other like "difficult" or "violent" verses from yours.
/Femi_________________________
Femi J. Kolapo
History Department * University of Guelph * Ontario * Canada* N1G 2W1
________________________
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Emeagwali, Gloria (History) <emeagwali@ccsu.edu>
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Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - To In Excelsis Gloria :CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the University of Guelph. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. If in doubt, forward suspicious emails to IThelp@uoguelph.ca
That is the point, Ken, these religious texts should not be placed on a pedestal- all of them.
To claim that this or that belligerent, irrational statement is divine or a pathway to"civilization " or "redemption " or "heaven" or whatever, is a step too far. We are on the same side here.
Unfortunately some people take the texts seriously, or use them selectively and opportunistically.
I would classify "this ineffably beautiful "text with Sun Tzu's "The Art of War" to some extent.
GE
Professor Gloria Emeagwali
Prof. of History/African Studies, CCSU
africahistory.net; vimeo.com/ gloriaemeagwali
Recipient of the 2014 Distinguished Research
Excellence Award, Univ. of Texas at Austin;
2019 Distinguished Africanist Award
New York African Studies Association
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Harrow, Kenneth <harrow@msu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 11:31 AM
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Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - To In Excelsis Gloria :Please be cautious: **External Email**
gloriaif you hunt hard, you might find some religion without the equivalents to this, but i doubt it.they mostly condemn "non-believers," and if you want me to turn to african faiths, well, there used to be twin sacrifices--or the opposite--as well, not to mention current witchhunts and albino sacrifices. the buddhists always seemed ideal to me as a child, young man--but along came sri lanka and the slaughter of more innnocents, not to mention the equivalent in burma now.the list is pretty endless.the great hindu epics celebrate the war victories of the gods.
i learned to read them allegorically; and frankly i would read any of the religious texts you cite on more than, or not at all on, the level of realism. not just because people were not writing realism or reading realism till the 19th c, mostly, but because the readings are richer if not read simply literally.
i think of religious discourse as human--not divine. as such, it is there in all the texts we encounter, including what we now call fiction or poetry or in any mode.
once we pass into the 18-19th c enlightenment, the attacks on religion became relentless. fine, i agree with ending allreligious abuses and powers. but i don't think our espousal of a religious identity is much different from espousing any other identities, be they national or racial or gender.
rationalizations to slaughter Others come in all forms.(besides isaiah's poetry is often ineffably beautiful)ken
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
517 803-8839
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Gloria Emeagwali <gloria.emeagwali@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2020 9:38 AM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - To In Excelsis Gloria :"Prepare slaughter for his childrenfor the inequity of their fathers,that they do not rise nor possess the land nor fill the face of the world with cities...."
Isaiah 14:21.................
"...for the waters of Dimon shall be fullOf blood for I will bring more upon Dimon, lions upon him that escapeth of Moab...."
Isaiah 15:9..................." and I will set the Egyptians against the Egyptians; and they shall fight every one against his brother and everyone against his neighbor; city against city and kingdom against kingdom, and the spirit of Egypt shallfail in the midst thereof...."
Isaiah 19......................And the Lord said Like as my servantIsaiah hath walked naked and barefootfor three years for a sign and wonder upon Egypt and upon Ethiopia so shall the King of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners and the Ethiopians captive .....
Isaiah 20......................
Ok. Enough for today, in this era ofdecolonization, detoxification, demilitarization, re-education, rethinking and decentering, spurred by George Floyd, the Martyr.
GE
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 7, 2020, at 6:19 PM, Cornelius Hamelberg <hamelbergcornelius4@gmail.com> wrote:
Gloria in Excelsis Emeagwali,
On the Day of judgement, I doubt that I will be asked about other people's sins and omissions, other people's lack of great Hebrew, other people's prayer record, other people's fornication and corruption or other people's faults and misdemeanours.
Here's Some Wisdom: Mesilat Yesharim: Chapter XVII: Concerning the means of Acquiring Purity
"And to purify his thoughts in relation to Divine service, he must give much thought to the falseness of pride. If he does so, he will be clean during the time of his Divine service of any strivings for the praises and encomiums of men and his mind will be directed solely to our Lord, who is our praise, and all our good, and our perfection, and besides Whom there is nothing, as it is said ( Deuteronomy 10: 21, "He is your praise and He is your God" (Mesilat Yesharim / Path of the Just by Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzzato zt'l Chapter 17 - Acquiring Purity with select commentaries)
A very important chapter : Acquiring Fear of Sin …
As King Arthur faint and pale once replied to Sir Bedivere:
"This is a shameful thing for men to lie."
I am always, strictly honest, even when I go to the party to which the invitation craves, "dress to impress" or "dress to kill". Honesty is the best policy. We don't have to be paternalistic about it (like Michael O) – shmile – and as you know, there are many like Michael O who know or think / assume that they know, there's even the Naija wahala police constable, self-appointed sanitary inspector of the Baga-Baga tribe like a bloodhound his pure nostrils on the lookout, flaring, busy shmelling the odour of corruption and bad grammar everywhere.
When it comes to abysmal ignorance, there is, of course, a difference between Jesus on the cross saying " Father, forgive them for they don't know what they are doing "and the Rabbi speaking generally, who says, " Father, forgive them for they know nothing!"
I must explain that my tendency is to address the heart or the implication/s in the question/subject matter, not to concentrate too much on the water is wet aspects…
You, Gloria, are not happy with Isaiah because of alleged
Sadism (Isaiah 5 & 10 & 13)
and what you call "ethno-nationalistic triumphalism.", i.e. the celebration of victory in Isaiah
Because I sense where you're coming from (and where you and women's lib are going) I'll just say this: In the Morning Blessings, everybody recites, (in Hebrew)
"Blessed are you HASHEM,
Our God, King of the universe
For not having made me a slave"
Men and boys recite (in Hebrew)
"Blessed are you HASHEM,
Our God, King of the universe
For not having made me a woman"
Women and girls recite (in Hebrew)
"Blessed are you HASHEM,
Our God, King of the universe
for having made me according to His will"
You could check the footnote on this – too long to quote here but I'll quote this bit which I'm sure you will approve: "Furthermore, women have often been the protectors of Judaism when the impetuosity and aggressiveness of the male nature led the men astray. The classic precedent was in the wilderness when the men - not the women - worshipped the Golden Calf. Thus, though women were not given the privilege of the challenge assigned to men, they are created closer to God's ideal of satisfaction. They express their gratitude in the blessing, "For having made me according to His will"
At the synagogue library, I watched one female librarian after the other come and go - in the course of two decades ( as you know, in the United States, the college librarian has the same status as a professor) so you can imagine my surprise when I would chat with them and eventually ask questions about the Torah and would get the answer, " Ask the Rabbi" . Lilian – the one I asked most, directed my attention away from Torah and towards Halacha - and for a few weeks, I was puzzled by this until this sank in Judaism : Women not supposed to study Torah
Music: Anat Cohen: "And The World Weeps"
Respectfully,
Cornelius
On Tue, 7 Jul 2020 at 15:14, Gloria Emeagwali <gloria.emeagwali@gmail.com> wrote:
Cornelius The Wise,Thanks for the link to Isaiah.
I decided to read some of the holy passages therein to drink of peace and wisdom.
"Maybe I was wrong about half a century ago,"I said to myself. "Give it another try now that you are supposedly wiser, andhave read thousands of books more,and visited two dozen countries more,and met thousands of persons more,"I grumbled.
So I decided to explore the links that you kindly provided.
But wetin did I find?Misogynism (Isaiah 3)
Sadism(Isaiah 5& 10 &13)Narcissism (Isaiah 9& 10)Vindictiveness(Isaiah 13)
Infants dashed to pieces;wives raped with no mercy on children, all in revenge (Isaiah 13)
Violence set within inter- regional politics against the Assyrian bogeyman (Isaiah 10), and ethno- nationalistic triumphalism.
Do not underestimate the wisdom ofteenagers.
GE
On Jul 7, 2020, at 3:16 AM, 'Michael Afolayan' via USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> wrote:
This is why if and when I skip any postings on this Dialogue series, I make sure it's not yours. Even if I disagree with the content, like when you are badgering my friend, Farooq, I ALWAYS enjoy the free style (sometimes they are complicatingly Soyinka-like and sometimes they are soothingly Achebeic). Come to think about it, where in heaven or on God's planet earth would I ever find someone who would take one word out of my whole submission and build a full-fledge epistle around it? It's to your credit!
Okay, forget "persevere", Honorable Cornelius. I am Yoruba (100%); English is just one of several languages I have been exposed to and which I deal with quite often but Yoruba is my comfort zone, being my mother tongue. I really couldn't tell what exactly possessed me when I borrowed the "P-word" to identify with your dilemma. It only confirms the Italian dictum,"Traduttore, traditore" (A translator is a traitor). I am dropping the word "persevere", which I think is a verb, and swapping it for a better Yoruba one "faradà". Actually, I prefer its noun form, "Ìfaradà", which if I break into its morphological components, would give me four independent meanings (morphemes):
- an affirmative prefix [Ì], meaning "the act or fact of"+- the proposition/first split verb [fi], meaning "with", +- the noun [ara], meaning "body" + and- the second split verb [dà], meaning "receive", "take", or "bear"
Altogether, the four-morpheme word provides us the rich image (in meaning) of "the act-(or fact)-of-with-the-body-receive (take/bear) (something)." You can henceforth assume I meant to caution or encourage you to "faradà," because it is in "ìfaradà" that we can actually arrive at a consensus (not compromise, mind you) on this issue of reparation.
Yep, yep, slavery is serious, unfair, forced and depressing but the type I just described )which Baba Kadiri further analyzed - like the burgher-flipping of the CEO, is unforced and insane.
And by the way, why did you have to choose Isaiah 53? Bee it known that you are. delving into my favorite chapter of the OT! I love it for its enigmatic paradoxes. It brings to bear the Sorrow I was thinking about. I had to memorize it in Yoruba in the elementary school. Oh well . . .
Stay cool, and keep safe!
MOA
===
On Monday, July 6, 2020, 5:34:14 AM EDT, Cornelius Hamelberg <hamelbergcornelius4@gmail.com> wrote:
Sir Michael,
Many Thanks for the thoughts and the understanding.
After 59 years of Independence a Chief Executive Officer from the promised land flipping hamburgers part-time at McDonald's in Atlanta, Georgia. Sheer madness. Who is to blame?
"Well, I don't know, but I've been told
The streets in heaven are lined with gold…"
It's utterly depressing that there are more Ethiopian doctors in any of the big US cities such as New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, than in Ethiopia. In 2003, there was a total of 68 doctors, 4 dentists and a (one) psychiatrist in the whole of Sierra Leone, whereas there were 39, 000 Medical doctors in Algeria, that year.
Indeed, our sorrow, our collective sorrow. You say that I must persevere. OK, I'll try and soldier on. I have Jesus. I have no other choice. I guess that I must first understand the full extent of what persevere actually means, its breadth of meaning so that I don't get you wrong.
I have just looked it up : persevere, verb, continue in a course of action even in the face of difficulty or with little or no indication of success. "his family persevered with his treatment"
Since it's our sorrow, our collective sorrow, I had better conjugate the verb, include all of us, I must persevere, you must persevere, they must persevere, we must all persevere.
Suicide is a major problem, one of the ways out of existential agony over here, you know.
If I were to complain to Suzannah the lady down the road she'll probably tell me something soothing, such as to hell with social distancing, amor vincit omnia; not such a bad idea except that I'm not going to get into any "let's overcome it together" or "let's jump into the river together."
For good measure I have also consulted the Devil's Dictionary and this definition got dragged up from the entrails of Jonah's whale:
PERSEVERANCE, n.
A lowly virtue whereby mediocrity achieves an inglorious success.
"Persevere, persevere!" cry the homilists all,
Themselves, day and night, persevering to bawl.
"Remember the fable of tortoise and hare --
The one at the goal while the other is -- where?"
Why, back there in Dreamland, renewing his lease
Of life, all his muscles preserving the peace,
The goal and the rival forgotten alike,
And the long fatigue of the needless hike.
His spirit a-squat in the grass and the dew
Of the dogless Land beyond the Stew,
He sleeps, like a saint in a holy place,
A winner of all that is good in a race.
I have talked to Baba Kadiri a few times since I told him to hold his peace (we will soon be hearing from him) in the meantime I am looking more closely at Isaiah 53 about the Suffering Servant
On Sun, 5 Jul 2020 at 17:54, 'Michael Afolayan' via USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> wrote:
"If it's in your heart to reply to my sorrow, please say something positively uplifting or hold your peace." (CH)
Honorable Cornelius (you've had so many titles these days, and I just came up with this one because I did not know which other ones to choose from) -
Here is something positively uplifting, I think: Your sorrow is a collective sorrow, our sorrow, that is; and so I say, persevere, dear brother; this, too, shall pass!
Baba Kadiri was so right in his postmodernist interrogation of slavery, the enslaved, and the enslaver. One thing he did not add is that an aspect of modern slavery is totally unforced but volunteered. I once did a survey of Nigerian immigrants to the United States since 1995, when the United Sates Visa Lottery gained high momentum, and it scared me. How would you classify a Chief Executive Officer of an organization quitting his job, selling all he got in order to embrace a visa lottery inviting him to the united States only to get there with his family and having to work at Wendy's, McDonald's, Burger King, etc., flipping burgers? I had (and still have) many friends in that category, including a physician who became a cab driver.
Yep, I fully agree with Baba Kadiri, too many trees have fallen over each other; an attempt to grab the ones from the bottom first would only make the task impossible to accomplish. Follow the conventional wisdom. Do well to remove the mess the ones on top first after the other; then, we will get to the bottom. Until then, when we talk of reparation, Trumpeters would only laugh us to scorn because we can only blow the vuvuzela, we can't score a single goal.
Just my thinking!
MOA
On Saturday, July 4, 2020, 10:01:15 PM EDT, Cornelius Hamelberg <hamelbergcornelius4@gmail.com> wrote:
Baba Kadiri,
Thinking about Pius Adesanmi who liked Don Williams ( what would he have been saying now ), my late friend Akintola Wyse who was a great fan of Jim Reeves (what would he have been saying today) and Chidi's eulogy which rained down tears on this forum when Kenny Rogers passed away, just now when I'm checking out the relationship between country music and the Confederate flag
I have still not recovered from your reply which is truly depressing, and all the more so when we consider that at Independence, Ghana, 6th of March 1957, Nigeria, 1st October 1960, Sierra Leone, 27th April 1961, we were confident, optimistic, hopeful and determined as we held " these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"
Sadly, not much has really changed with regard to equal opportunity for the pursuit of individual and collective liberty. For our American brothers and sisters, not much has changed and for some of post-independent Africa, even with a change of management, from colonial to indigenous Black self-rule, in some areas, things have only got progressively much worse.
After the horrific murder of George Floyd we and the rest of the world have become more aware and alerted about the state of affairs for the Black man and the Black woman in the United States and in the rest of the world. We are now being endlessly inundated by historical information about how bad things were and lately – history still being made on a daily basis, horrendous reports such as, " the slaughter of Christians in Nigeria – scroll down a little further and read about what happened on May 7th.
The saddest fact is that it's because we apparently cannot successfully govern ourselves and that's why people such as late movie actor John Wayne and an American president like Trump can taunt us that we reluctant to go back to our supposedly "shithole "countries.
Maybe, things would have been different if we had been colonised by Sweden or by Wales? If by the latter some of us would now be squabbling about this kind of subject matter.
When I was in the first form, I had a penfriend by the name of Martin Yeo, who lived in Glamorgan, Wales. (Smile)
If it's in your heart to reply to my sorrow, please say something positively uplifting or hold your peace.
On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 at 21:43, Salimonu Kadiri <ogunlakaiye@hotmail.com> wrote:
My dear Rabbi Hamelberg, your original question on reparations (why should people who never owned slaves give money to people who were never slaves?) arose out of the wrong belief propagated by the enslavers and their inheritors that slavery ended in the 19th century. Slavery, as far as Africa is concerned, has never ended at anytime in history, but was transformed in stages to colonialism (imperialism), Neo-colonialism, and now globalisation. What the enslavers did to Africans from the 15th century upward, their current inheritors are doing the same things today to achieve the same results economically under globalisation. The enslavers of the old derived their wealth from the exploitation of the physical labour of the Blackman while modern enslavers do not only exploit the physical labour of the Blackman, but subject the African Continent to direct plunder of mineral resources, unequal trade and subordination of agricultural productions to the interest of the enslavers. Nominally, African nations are independent since each possesses a national flag and anthem but the governments are slave overseers acting on behalf of enslavers in the US and Europe. So, the case of reparations will only arise after the economic enslavement of Africans have stopped. Talking now about reparations for slavery when we are still economically enslaved is like putting the cart before the horse.S. Kadiri
Från: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> för Cornelius Hamelberg <hamelbergcornelius4@gmail.com>
Skickat: den 30 juni 2020 21:02
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Ämne: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - To In Excelsis Gloria :I'm still hoping for a fulsome reply ( the female touch) and at least some comforting words from First Lady Gloria in Excelsis Emeagwali, to whom the question is also addressed.
The long-standing issue of Reparations wasn't taken up by Brother Obama (Luo father from Kenya), not during his first term as first Black President ever and not in the Second term either. If he had as much as raised the issue during his first term, it's almost certain that he would not have served a second term, based on these sort of arguments advanced by David Horowitz long before Obama set foot in the White House. The idea of Reparations, of so-called "Black Privilege", of painting the White House BLACK – the colour of the occupant, would have succeeded in dividing the USA as never before and would have also only succeeded in enraging Trump and his White Supremacists and most likely witnessed an increase in USA-Police-Brutality as an inevitable backlash – part of the unwritten policy as a general consensus and tacit understanding of "keeping niggers in their place", of " keeping the niggers in check"
For that reason, Obama did not take up the Reparations cause in the second term either ( Trump would have asked for a more thorough examination of Brother Obama's Birth Certificate and would have probably started a Back-to-Africa Crusade, to the lands of Obama's ancestors and for the Black, African, and African-American Brothers and Sisters - if Brother Obama had insisted. Needless to say, neither Pa nor Ma Clinton pushed the idea either.
Even though Black Lives Matter and the somewhat counter-revolutionary All Lives Matter is the immediate background to the next presidential elections , Reparations is still not in the air.
The question remains, if not now, when?
In the meanwhile, Trump is busy selling himself as the law and order President appointed by God, approved by God and the Founding Fathers, after Obama, and especially sent by God to protect America's sacred monuments and confederate legacies.
Trump is currently expanding his base to incorporate skills over degrees…
With improved vocational training, a similar policy would develop fruits in Nigeria, although - perish the thought - for some of Nigeria's Big Buk and, even if they have not ever been near the Palace, some of the Buckingham Palace Big Grammar people the idea of skills over degrees in the employment market is anathema
It goes without saying, that skills is the essence of Germany's industrial pre-eminence, whilst a lack of the requisite manpower requirements is why the Chinese move in with their complete workforce to execute whatever the project, in record time….
On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 at 05:57, 'Okechukwu Ukaga' via USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> wrote:
One possible reason is inheritance. People do inherit the assets and liabilities of their forefathers.
On Jun 29, 2020 8:27 PM, "Cornelius Hamelberg" <hamelbergcornelius4@gm
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