Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2021 11:52 AM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Israel and Palestine: Peace for allor peace for none
Please be cautious: **External Email**
The best place to begin: https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10218895668171780&set=gm.672352036907014
and better than despair, here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/stoicismconvo
Thanks Professor Falola the Elder (since there's also the Professor Falola the daughter). I pray that the racists and tribalists don't take your advice to heart, wrench you out of the context of this discussion and misinterpret what you mean by " Intelligent scholars are trained to discriminate. Even in talking to people, we discriminate. I don't use what others tell me about another human being to relate to them. I can be inheriting another person's hostility, envy, hate, etc. That you have a bad friend does not mean that the person you call a bad person is bad to me. And in any case, you may call a person a bad person because of what he has done to you, which he has not done to me. Or I can have a Yoruba epistemological position that says:
Oro la danu
Ki i se eniyan
Translation: throw away a persons' words that you disagree with, not the person him/herself. This does not apply to Garba in Aso Rock as I want to throw his words and person away!"
Thanks Kenneth Harrow (another director of the big knowledge banks – he invokes Foucault - I dream Rimbaud!) Thanks Gloria in excelsis Emeagwali , the Alpha & O=mega and the theory of everything that ends where the wiki begins. Thanks Toyin Vincent Adepoju (indeed "another master of the essay, Abiola Irele.", for the persistence of word sense over matter also F. R. Leavis, and, whilst we are at it, to remember, a library is not a university, although libraries are whole universes), thanks Kperogi, thanks everybody, thanks for all the dogmatics, the pseudo science and intro philosophy , but please take note that I do not say thanks to the cherub Assange for his not so witty, weaky leaks ( imagine a doggy raising his hind leg every five minutes or so to take a leak – a pee, leaning against a tree, one, two, three…)
Re - "Teachers teach that knowledge waits
Can lead to hundred-dollar plates..."
A. T. von S. Bradshaw our English Master in the 4th form started his each and every lesson with a Chinese proverb to wit, that "The House of Learning is One!" - we did " Animal Farm" with him and you can bet that in no time at all we all became authorities on the Bolsheviks, right up to Chiang Kai-shek – this was circa 1962 and there was no internet then but there was an excellent school library and after school circa 2 pm, there was the British Council Library just behind my grandfather Louis Hamelberg's house at Tower Hill, and that where I spent most of my days, including holy days and holidays. These days, a curious lad would just have to flip open is cellphone and go straight to the Wiki - which does not mean to say that we should agree with Kperogi's gripe – surely an imagined grudge, no matter how deeply felt, that his beloved wiki "puts knowledge at the fingertips of the "uninitiated" that the "initiated" took years to acquire in the traditional fashion.".
Not in a hundred thousand years for the simple fact of the matter that neither he nor Wiki in present, past and future digital incarnations/ generations could possibly produce e.g. Under Western Eyes – India – from Milton to Macaulay" by Balachandra Rajan or that kind of readership.
It still a matter of two Jews, three opinions vs "I'm right, you're dead - do you know better than me? I'm a doctor!"
Even when capturing or internalising the sense, TVA (Adepoju) could remain mindful that Rilke wrote in German, Eliot's "Murder in the Cathedral "is in English, John the Galilean fisherman's Gospel is in polished Greek, the immaculate Quran is in the most marvellous gold standard Arabic, therefore so easy to memorise...
In my opinion, God has many mansions, one of which I suppose is wiki, one of many sources of information about the real and the not so real
It's the exclusiveness of "Wikipedia actually has some of the best general information in the world on a lot of subject matters" like a sentence from a school-man of the 21st century digital age when the twenty something volumes of the Encyclopedia Britannic has been condensed to the size of a matchbox - save so much storage space...
I wonder if it's honest to learn from Wikipedia and not use it as a reference.
How are academic books necessarily better than an encyclopedia and Wikipedia specifically?
To what degree is knowledge not interest, bias or perspectively driven?
As always, the key is an analytical approach to all knowledge, from everywhere.
Toyin
--On Mon, May 24, 2021, 21:59 Harrow, Kenneth <harrow@msu.edu> wrote:
i've seen some weak moments in wikipedia, but on the whole it is absolutely astonishing. unbelievable. want to know something, google it and wiki pops up.gloria's warnings are needed; if i were vetting a student's claim, wiki would be either weak or unacceptable. but it has become a relatively reliable source of knowledge on EVERYTHING, which amazes me.that last little article i posted--about which i know almost nothing--had something like 500 references or footnotes. you can follow that line through, if you are interested and knowledgeable, to get a sense on how well substantiated the claims are. students can track those sources, and then use them. that makes the claims more credible.
i was told there are certain entries that "interested parties," like religious nuts, try to dominate. we need some caution after all. but we can also compare what they say, and try to be discriminating.as i said, i've worked on science issues for a couple of years now. want to know what a wave function is? wiki it, it is there. and it is very very solid.
you can't publish with wiki as a reference; you can use it, however, to learn and as a lead in to real source material.
ken
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
517 803-8839
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Oluwatoyin Adepoju <ovdepoju@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, May 24, 2021 2:19 PM
To: usaafricadialogue <USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Israel and Palestine: Peace for allor peace for noneWe need a. more creative approach to Wikipedia.
It is the richest source of organised knowledge on Earth and perhaps in history.
If there is any other such knowledge source I would like to know of it.
Thanks
Toyin
Toyin
On Mon, May 24, 2021, 17:29 Emeagwali, Gloria (History) <emeagwali@ccsu.edu> wrote:
Who is the author of the Wikipedia article? The content changes per minute. What makes the entry wonderful?
I always appreciate the illustrations and in some cases the Bibliography but many of the articles are self serving, group coordinated and oftensuspect.
The first statement I utter to my students in my first week of Class is:
"Hello Students. Welcome.I do not accept Wikipedia as a reference."
Professor Gloria Emeagwali
Prof. of History/African Studies, CCSU
africahistory.net; vimeo.com/ gloriaemeagwali
Recipient of the 2014 Distinguished Research
Excellence Award, Univ. of Texas at Austin;
2019 Distinguished Africanist Award
New York African Studies Association
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Harrow, Kenneth <harrow@msu.edu>
Sent: Monday, May 24, 2021 10:20 AM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>; Joseph.Bangura@kzoo.edu <Joseph.Bangura@kzoo.edu>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Israel and Palestine: Peace for allor peace for nonePlease be cautious: **External Email**
this wondwerful wikipedia entry gives a different picture, OAA, concerning polytheism and monotheism. the latter came latter, probably around when it was being accepted elsewhere in the middle east.even in the jewish bible the idea of other gods existing is reiterated over and over in warnings not to worship them; not to mention that god has many different names, indicated an earlier period of many gods who were ultimately joined into one.
rushdie later plays on this notion of earlier worship of multiple goddess alongside allah (i'm switching subject here slightly), with the claim that the verses indicating this initially by muhammed were later revised and excised, whence the title "Satanic Verses."
it is interesting to me to ask when the greeks became, more or less monotheistic, which was around that same period 7-6th centuries b.c.e.
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
517 803-8839
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of OLAYINKA AGBETUYI <yagbetuyi@hotmail.com>
Sent: Monday, May 24, 2021 6:36 AM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>; Joseph.Bangura@kzoo.edu <Joseph.Bangura@kzoo.edu>
Subject: RE: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Israel and Palestine: Peace for allor peace for none
Ben- Sasson is right. The philistines were the civilization that preceded the settlements of the Israelites in Canaan and there are artifacts celebrating the glories of the civilization of the philistines.
The Israelites came to Canaan when the philistines civilization was on the decline ( just as the Greeks and Romans did in Egypt) and what was celebrated in the story of David and Goliath was the usual israelite teleological parodic narrative through which the Canaanites were dispossed by yet another conqueror nation replacing an erstwhile conquering nation ( the philistines). The phased annexation by Israel was capped in the allegory of the defeat of prophets of Baal by the prophets of Yahweh signifying the displacement of the originary polytheistic ethos in Canaan by monotheism not through persuasion but by force of arms, a parallel and continuum which Christopher Okigbo drew in his narrative of the forcible dispossession of the worship of Idoto in Eastern Nigeria by British colonialists (and replacement with Christianity) in Labyrinths.
Historians are however emphatic in stating that the philistines are NOT the same as today's palestinians. Today's palestinians they maintain emerged from series of migrations into the area over time, centuries after the philistines with a large contingent from Syria.
OAA
Sent from my Galaxy
-------- Original message --------From: "Emeagwali, Gloria (History)" <emeagwali@ccsu.edu>Date: 24/05/2021 02:32 (GMT+00:00)Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Israel and Palestine: Peace for allor peace for none
My answer to this great question is that wehave to go back to antiquity to find outwho exactly were the ancestors of today'sPalestinians.Did these ancestors have a state-in the form of a city state, a kingdom or anempire? Where exactly was it located?
The battle over settlement in the area is hotly
contested, however.
archaeologists-both-lay-claim-to-heritage.
Ben-Sasson, in, A History of the Jewish People,contends that the relationship betweenthe Philistines and the Israelites was tangled inantiquity and that both groups were migrantsinto Canaan. Gaza, Ashkelon and Ashdod wereamong the Philistine towns. By the mid eleventhcentury, BC, the Philistines hada confederacy of five city states, he argues(BenSasson, 87).
Professor Gloria Emeagwali
Prof. of History/African Studies, CCSU
africahistory.net; vimeo.com/ gloriaemeagwali
Recipient of the 2014 Distinguished Research
Excellence Award, Univ. of Texas at Austin;
2019 Distinguished Africanist Award
New York African Studies Association
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Joseph Bangura <Joseph.Bangura@kzoo.edu>
Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2021 3:07 PM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Israel and Palestine: Peace for all or peace for nonePlease be cautious: **External Email**
I meant to say "Has there ever been a Palestinian State in the history of what is now referred to as the Middle East?"
Apologies for the error.
Sent from my iPhone
I just spotted some grammatical errorsin my previous post. Sorry about that.
Well here is a piece that tackles
some of the issues raised.Raoul Peck's, "Exterminate All the Brutes "is of special relevance.
pm-section/78-78/69429-bidens-special-challenge-the-deadly-white-supremacy-doctriine
Gloria Emeagwali
Professor Gloria Emeagwali
Prof. of History/African Studies, CCSU
africahistory.net; vimeo.com/ gloriaemeagwali
Recipient of the 2014 Distinguished Research
Excellence Award, Univ. of Texas at Austin;
2019 Distinguished Africanist Award
New York African Studies Association
From: Harrow, Kenneth <harrow@msu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2021 4:23 PM
To: Emeagwali, Gloria (History) <emeagwali@ccsu.edu>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Israel and Palestine: Peace for all or peace for nonePlease be cautious: **External Email**
not surprising. i think it makes my point....
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
517 803-8839
From: Emeagwali, Gloria (History) <emeagwali@ccsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2021 3:45 PM
To: Harrow, Kenneth <harrow@msu.edu>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Israel and Palestine: Peace for all or peace for noneFor the record, this guy was 100 percentXhosa and had no cultural affiliation withthe Khoisan descendants (so-called Colored).
I asked him why he preferred theBoers. He looked me in the eye andsaid, with total conviction, that the Afrikanersare racist but you know exactly whereyou stand with them.
Professor Gloria Emeagwali
Prof. of History/African Studies, CCSU
africahistory.net; vimeo.com/ gloriaemeagwali
Recipient of the 2014 Distinguished Research
Excellence Award, Univ. of Texas at Austin;
2019 Distinguished Africanist Award
New York African Studies Association
From: Harrow, Kenneth <harrow@msu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2021 3:28 PM
To: Emeagwali, Gloria (History) <emeagwali@ccsu.edu>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Israel and Palestine: Peace for all or peace for nonePlease be cautious: **External Email**
gloria, i was talking about afrikaners, the slave owners and original conquerors, in the past. the british abolitionist movement was real. but i imagine your interlocutor was culturally more at home with afrikaners, who were probably less arrogant than the brits by the time you interviewed them. the "coloured" population spoke afrikaans.
i am not interested in defending the british colonialists; but i would have to be convinced that they were worse than the afrikaners. in 1948 the afrikaners came to power with their Nationalist party. They were pro-Nazi, and it was they who put in place the legal mechanisms of Apartheid; they who ruled while the ANC revolted against them.how they stand in the present vis a vis racism, anglos vs afrikaners, i don't know.
ken
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
517 803-8839
From: Emeagwali, Gloria (History) <emeagwali@ccsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2021 3:20 PM
To: Harrow, Kenneth <harrow@msu.edu>; usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Israel and Palestine: Peace for all or peace for noneThe Brits did not abolish slavery just like that.After the Haitian revolution and a series ofother revolts throughout the region the Britsrealized that the power of resistance wasformidable and that multiple Haitis wouldemerge in the future. Add to that fear factor the technological breakthrough in efficient machinery.
Who wiped out most of the Indigenouspeople in Australia, NewZealand, theAmericas etc
Do we know how many millions the Britishkilled in their Wars of invasion and occupationwith the Gatling gun , the dumdum bullets andInfected small pox blankets?
7 million? 8 million?
In one of my interviews in South Africa in 2002,I asked the interviewee a straight question.
Between the Afrikaners and the British whodo you prefer?
"The Afrikaners," he replied.
Professor Gloria Emeagwali
Prof. of History/African Studies, CCSU
africahistory.net; vimeo.com/ gloriaemeagwali
Recipient of the 2014 Distinguished Research
Excellence Award, Univ. of Texas at Austin;
2019 Distinguished Africanist Award
New York African Studies Association
From: Harrow, Kenneth <harrow@msu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2021 9:47 AM
To: Emeagwali, Gloria (History) <emeagwali@ccsu.edu>; usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Israel and Palestine: Peace for all or peace for nonePlease be cautious: **External Email**
the reality is apartheid was always there: the whites lived in white areas, the africans in theirs, the coloured in theirs. enforced by the same kinds of practices as kept whites and blacks apart in the u.,s. after the civil war. but more importantly, absolutely, there was not a single colonial state at all that did not impose segregation and differential laws on the population. that was at the heart of colonialism, and the southern african model was real in the portuguese colonies just as it was in south africa. i was surprised when i first learn that s africa was not an exception. but it was in effect a system of segregation, more formalized after 1948, but effectively the same.gloria your recitation of history was meant to show the horrors of the brits, with which i agree. they took over the economic reins and governance. but they also abolished slavery and fought the afrikaners who tried to revolt, and keep their slave owning ways.
the brits had a more liberal faction; i am not aware if the afrikaners did, i never heard of it. the brits included anti apartheid activists who were famous, we all know of them. the afrikaners? dunno of them.the afrikaners were at the heart of the racism; the brits more typical colonial racist. that's my impression of their cultural difference.
i once argued with an austalian woman of british descent about this reality in kenya; she was convinced the brits were good, etc. nonsense. they were monsters in kenya, for reasons i won't bother enumerating...just read a little ngugi to get a nice feel for the harshness and destructiveness to kikuyus. as for the brits in nigeria, i would love to hear from the nigerian historians on this listserv who can expatiate better than i on how they imposed their race restrictions and economic rules on the colonized people. how was lagos island organized? here's what a cursory look gave: "The historical core of the town, Lagos Island, developed from the main sub-communities who lived in relatively distinct districts. The European community represented a small group (300 people by 1901). This community established the physical foundations of the city, which consisted of warehouses and government buildings built along the Marina and around the racecourse."the wealth of all colonial states was similarly organized in apartheid fashion. everywhere. south africa was no different.ken
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
517 803-8839
From: Emeagwali, Gloria (History) <emeagwali@ccsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 21, 2021 10:39 PM
To: Harrow, Kenneth <harrow@msu.edu>; usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Israel and Palestine: Peace for all or peace for none
Please be cautious: **External Email**
"apartheid, that is separation by practice and eventually law, was there in south africa for centuries, long before the british came, and when they did, it was over the opposition of the afrikaners who believed in enslaving africans, and fought a war against the british."
It is always good to have input from you, Ken, but here is the historical reality.
The British made their appearance at the end of the 18th century in the 1790s about a century and a half after the 1652 arrival/invasion of the Dutch. Was apartheid in place during that initial era of Dutch domination?Technically no. Military conquest was the major preoccupation of theDutch, who fought four major wars against the Khoisan.They also engaged in large scale kidnapping of Khoisan women but the institutionalization of the system through a series of laws and regulations such as the Prohibition of Mixed Marriage Act - Act no. 55 of 1949 and the Population Regulation Act of 1950 was not a factor.
If we use your loose definition of apartheid we would have to call all the colonial regimes, apartheid states - whether British, French, Belgium, German, Spanish, Portuguese or Italian- or American, Canadian or Australian, for that matter. I am good with that.
The opposition between the British and theDutch Afrikaners was primarily over the imposition of British rule in the early 19th century. That was what triggered the Infamous Great Trek northwards. The issue over who would control the diamond and gold fields in the North in the Johannesburg area and environs, was also a major cause of opposition between the two.
The war fought in 1899 was also aboutsecessionist tendencies and power and was certainly not aimed at protecting Africans. In fact the British invaded and fought wars against the Xhosa, the Zulu and any African nation or kingdom that tried to defend its territorial integrity and retake control of land and resources.That is the significance of the Anglo-Zulu war of 1879, for example.
Why didn't the British include the Zulu or Xhosa or Pedi or Ndebele nation in the 1910 union if they were the good guys?
Why did they give Cecil Rhodes and others a free hand to seize gold fields and bar Africans from controlling the world's greatest diamond fields of the era?
Why did the British encourage Jan Smuts to rule in the first place. He was a defeated general but the British facilitatedhis emergence as the first PM of the Union of South Africa 1919-24.
"if you wanted to say this state was formed like s africa, that's not true"
I said what I meant, namely, that the year 1948 saw the emergence of two major violators of human rights.
GE
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Gloria Emeagwali <gloria.emeagwali@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, May 21, 2021 11:17 AM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Israel and Palestine: Peace for all or peace for noneThe thing to note is that the apartheid state of South Africa was established in 1948, the same year as the establishment of the state of Israel - and the British were involved in both.
The British created the foundation of South African apartheid separatism, in 1910, by excluding Black nations from the Union of South Africa, and elevating the Dutch Afrikaners to positions of leadership and hegemony, after this period.
In the case of Israel, the same British establishment created the Balfour Agreement of 1917 that offered a homeland for the Jewish minority in Palestine, then a component of the Ottoman Empire. Fast forward to 1948 and after, and the exclusion and expulsion of millions of Palestinians from the newly created homeland of Israel, would continue.
The two siblings, South Africa and Israel, committed atrocities and violated human rights for decades, but the apartheid regime of South Africa, conceded defeat in 1990, and turned over a new leaf - somewhat.
Israel, the twin, continued with its atrocities, opportunistically citing holy passages of divine intervention and promise for its land grab.
Interestingly enough, Reverend Francois Malan, a founder of South African apartheid, would take a slightly different path for his own toxic territorial expansionist venture. He would build on the 1912 Natives Act, that initially allocated seven percent of South African land to the Black population, about five times in size, and create his Bantustan separatist policy for his own "Palestinians" in the 1951 Bantu Authorities Act.
As for Israel, well this site shedslight on the ongoing issue of land grab:
Gloria Emeagwali
On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 23:48 Sabella <sabidde@gmail.com> wrote:
The
State of Israel has been in existence since 1948/1949. Rightfully so! They
deserve to live in peace and security. However, they cannot and should not deny
the Palestinians their inalienable right to statehood; they cannot and should
not deny the Palestinians the right to live in peace and security. Until the US
and the rest of the United Nations Security Council members acquiesces to the
wishes of the Palestinians to become a sovereign state – recognized and a fully
functioning member of the UN and other international organizations – the world
will continue to witness these one-sided carnages. Unless Palestine becomes a sovereign state,
there will never be peace and serenity in that neighborhood. Never! Military
might or not -- unless there is peace for all -- there will be peace for none.
Something else: we pretend not to know that much of the hostility and resentment
in the Middle is traceable to the Israeli-Palestinian problem. The world, and
indeed, the Middle East will be a much better place if we inject justice and
fairness into the equation.
Sabella
O. Abidde
--
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