Dialogues: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series

this makes sense to me, gloria. it's always easiest to say, this is exactly how it is: one description that covers many things. it seems much more convincing to say, well, at one time and in one place the chinese were like this, and then like that.

ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

harrow@msu.edu

From: 'Emeagwali, Gloria (History)' via USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2021 1:05 AM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - afghanistan-iran

"but that was then. i';d be more interested in asking about the post-independent period, and whether by the time of

neo-colonialism, and then later, as the global economy takes hold, how the capitalist system worked, and how it compared with the chinese entry."

Ken,

You have just moved the goal post. I was comparing the rapacious colonial era

with the present, to challenge the assumption that China's actions today are

equivalent to the era of British or French colonialism.

Now that is not to say that the Chinese are without blemish in their dealings with African countries at present. In fact

they have been rapacious in Zambia and Ghana, reasonable in Ethiopia, racist in Kenya, fairly benign in South Africa, and in Nigeria,

maybe of mixed record. It all depends on the region and even the time of focus. As I said before they were not liked

around 2010 in Ethiopia but made a change for the better a few years after that and got better reception from the population in return.

We have a fair amount of research emanating from scholars on this issue. I see a strong correlation between a government's

transparency and deal making capacity and resolve, and Chinese response. Now this is also a wait -and-see situation. If the Chinese

decided to send troops in to collect debt by invading and occupying regions, as the US did in Latin America in the early 20th century,

the report card would have to change.

The fact is that the World Bank and the IMF failed African countries by their monetarist economics and onerous conditionalities, high interest rates

and dirt cheap payment for primary resources, paving the way for China's entry.

BTW those large fish trawlers you mentioned are also of Korean, European and Russian origin. These illegal trawlers were doing the same

in the Red Sea- until the Somali counter "pirates" got into action. But that is another story.

Professor Gloria Emeagwali
History Department, Central Connecticut State University

www.africahistory.net

http://web.ccsu.edu/afstudy/archive.html

Chief Editor- "Africa Update"

www.vimeo.com/gloriaemeagwali

Gloria Emeagwali's Documentaries

2014 Distinguished Research Excellence Award in African Studies

University of Texas at Austin

2019 Distinguished Africanist Award

New York African Studies Association

From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Harrow, Kenneth <harrow@msu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 10:31 PM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - afghanistan-iran

Please be cautious: **External Email**

gloria,

it feels a little like apples and oranges. hmm, or some other metaphor might be better, since apples and oranges are both good.

there was not very much good one could say about colonial expropriation of african wealth, forced labor, etc. maybe by the 1950s it had improved. but i know the horror stories much more than any positive development stories,

but that was then. i';d be more interested in asking about the post-independent period, and whether by the time of neo-colonialism, and then later, as the global economy takes hold, how the capitalist system worked, and how it compared with the chinese entry.

my impression is that one of the hot topics of contemporary african studies is china, is it good or bad. my impression is that the decision is still out. i hear bits and pieces; some ugly things about chinese arrogance; some grousing about how extensive the chinese projects are now, everywhere. i don't really know for sure that i could say that it works to african states' benefit or not. if you feel comfortable about pronouncing on it, i'd be interested in hearing more.

the only place i know for sure it is bad is the giant trawlers that scoop up the fish off the coast. but the chinese are merely doing what europeans and others are doing there too.

as for western trade, i've learned the french have not faded into the EU, still maintain extensive trade and production, including agricultural crops. are their deals better or worse than those of the chinese? i don't know. how do the chinese make their deals? i don't know.

of course we all know about SAP, but those days are largely over.

is there much venality in the chinese insertion in the continent?

but i'd like to learn, and am willing to withhold judgment until people who know the situation better than i can address it.

ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

harrow@msu.edu

From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Gloria Emeagwali <gloria.emeagwali@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 9:46 PM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - afghanistan-iran

Ken,

You are right to a point.There is indication of gold theft by a Chinese mafia group in the Congo and individual pilfering. But my reference was to state directed colonial occupation and compulsory evacuation of resources.

China did not send in gunboats and weaponry to create colonies from which they evacuated vegetable oils,

and minerals at their will, under the protection of the military, as done by the British, French, Italians, Germans,Spaniards, Belgians, Danes (?)and Portuguese. In the case of the Congo, Kabila and his supporters made a deal with the Chinese for infrastructure for minerals.I believe this was from a free negotiation platform. They had the choice of

switching over to the Brits or French etc and rejecting the deal, but did not. During the colonial era there was no option.

Gloria Emeagwali

Prof of History/ African Studies

On Aug 26, 2021, at 16:51, Harrow, Kenneth <harrow@msu.edu> wrote:

not sure i agree about china not stealing minerals, given conditions under which minerals are being extracted and sold in many parts of the continent., burundi is now renegotiating, and e congo is pure theft all around. but i agree w gloria's overall assessment. i don't know that i agree that the future conditions under china or russia or any of the future partners would be better than the west. i'd like to hear someone expert in afghan to explain it. i did read the taliban made much of their money w opium; i wonder what will happen with that.

ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

harrow@msu.edu

From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Gloria Emeagwali <gloria.emeagwali@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 3:11 PM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - afghanistan-iran

Pakistan is quite pleased and so are China and Russia. Afghanistan has a trillion dollar worth of deposits in lithium for the battery hungry world, and I foresee China moving in to exploit it. They don't steal minerals as the West did during colonial rule.They pay for them. China may also want friendly relations with the Taliban to calm down its Chinese Muslim population-hoping that they are not inspired by the Taliban success.

I predict that the US itself may soon try to make the Taliban a new friend given that the two have a deadly enemy in Isil-K. I notice that the Europeans more than doubled the amount of aid to the Taliban government in a bid to rival the US?

So in the light of all this Iran would

be stupid to stay aloof.

Just heard there was a third blast in

Kabul.

Gloria Emeagwali

On Aug 26, 2021, at 10:42, Harrow, Kenneth <harrow@msu.edu> wrote:

turns out paul zeleza was right, according to this piece i just saw in Le Monde the iranian govt has backed away from its former criticisms, softened its tone, met with taliban leaders. they are seeing in the retreat of the americans an occasion for them to find rapprochement with afghanistan. i wonder how relations with pakistan will follow.

ken

https://www.lemonde.fr/international/article/2021/08/26/l-iran-fait-le-pari-des-talibans_6092409_3210.html

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

harrow@msu.edu

--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue+subscribe@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/BL1PR12MB5191CB98AEBC0132099CC7D8DAC79%40BL1PR12MB5191.namprd12.prod.outlook.com.

--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue+subscribe@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CCC1EDB2-8431-4493-8BD2-DEC88885B680%40gmail.com.

--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue+subscribe@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/BL1PR12MB5191D8E7A50C90B45E9A5BAEDAC79%40BL1PR12MB5191.namprd12.prod.outlook.com.

--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue+subscribe@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/02A4D42A-4E6C-429B-B9CD-B21995DCDFEE%40gmail.com.

Dialogues

Friday, August 27, 2021

Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - afghanistan-iran

No comments:

Post a Comment

Followers

Blog Archive

About Me