good points moses, but i already did signal the same issue earlier that in the case of rwanda we have the facade of a democratically elected govt, not a real election. i am hardly adovcating for democracy at all costs, or am unaware of the pseudo elections, like in cameroon.
i am surprised that you put nigeria in the same bag as rwanda, where the former has a relatively more open society with the press and voices of opposition or dissent whereas that isn't the case of rwanda. i don't think uganda is as closed as rwanda, on that score. but not to quibble: many elections are relatively false, like biya's
i mentioned that more than once: i am not arguing that this desire of regimes to adopt the facade of democracy is real or helps anyone.
but i really don't agree that civil rights are so irrelevant, or that "africans" as you put it don't really care about them. when it comes to security and violence is at the door, sure, peace is paramount. when it comes to food, of course, eating is paramount.
but most people are not starving or in war zones. when they are close to those situations, their rights to be heard are practically irrelevant to their lives. but that is not true of most people most of the time.
i don't know how one can speak with any authority on this question. i've been a country specialist for rwanda and burundi, for amnesty, for 30 years, and followed closely protests, people speaking out, being repressed, and fighting for their rights. i follow that elsewhere on the continent. i would not agree that this is a western question, or a question that most people do not care about.
i think it is a human right, in our times, in our days when we live in the social order of our times, and that political processes, radio and tv, newspapers, and publications, films, speak often to this right to voice an opinion, and that people, many many people, especially in cities, are attentive to the right to voice an opinion without the govt shutting down the press or tv station. the incredible bravery of many many journalists is attested to in the Committee for the Protection of Journalists, and HRW and elsewhere. for me these are not foreign rights or foreign human rights defenders, but people with whom many of us collaborate. I admire people like Tine, a hr defender in senegal, enormously. many risk their lives to publish, and should be admired.
you state in a number of regimes, like rwanda or uganda there is repression that is no worse than under the military, because those aren't regimes that defend human rights. i agree.
please notice when i asserted that people would want to be able to replace a regime without having to go to war to do so, i did not state by elections. i know that is your bug-bear. but in fact, lousy elections maybe be the only alternative for most people most of the time.
as for the joy of coups, well, you can cite burkina today, but for every celebration like that, you and i know there are dozens like the latest in guinea which hardly seemed to engender any dancing.
ken
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
517 803-8839
harrow@msu.edu
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Moses Ebe Ochonu <meochonu@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2022 2:03 PM
To: USAAfricaDialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Are coups back?
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2022 2:03 PM
To: USAAfricaDialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Are coups back?
"The military have no check, or less check, on their behavior. if you object, you're shot. the civilians don't all impose dictatorial regimes using the barrel of the gun, though some like qaddafi did."
Ken,
With all due respect you're hung up on textbookish, theoretical distinctions again. Have you been to Nigeria lately? Or Cameroon? or Guinea before the coup? Or Mali before the coup? Or Uganda? Or Rwanda? Or etc, etc? These "democratic" regimes and many more in Africa have no checks and behave exactly like military regimes. The only difference is that they maintain the illusion and facade of checks and balances by strategically tolerating the inconsequential and cosmetic existence of a legislative arm and a judicial arm--both of which are appendages of the strong "democratically elected" president. This optical enactment "performs" the tenets of "democracy" for Westerners so that aid, acceptance, and patronage can keep flowing. It also keeps the hostility of the West and the international community away. It is an elaborate, theatrical charade.
"Maybe the better judge of a decent rule is not simply if it addresses the safety and food concerns of the people, but if it tolerates dissent and can be replaced without violence."
This is where we differ sharply. You want to judge what constitutes "decent rule" with the abstract criterion of tolerance for dissent and the possibility of electoral removal of a bad regime. First of all, many elected regimes in Africa, with the complicity and even support of Western "pro-democracy" states, have taken measures to make the latter (their own removal through elections) impossible.
Secondly, as I have stated, Africans care more about first order ameliorative and existential aspirations than they do about civic freedoms; and, moreover, the question of tolerance for dissent in Africa does not divide neatly into a military versus civilian elected regime, or between "democracy" and autocracy.
On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 12:18 PM Harrow, Kenneth <harrow@msu.edu> wrote:
--you have a point moses, except for one thing. the military have no check, or less check, on their behavior. if you object, you're shot. the civilians don't all impose dictatorial regimes using the barrel of the gun, though some like qaddafi did.
we could use another vocabulary for the distinctions of rule. one is messy, with uncertain rules applied more arbitrarily. you never knew if you crossed the line, with ahidjo.oyono-mbia, a good writer, who was a former policeman, and handicapped, would tell us: when the black car pulled in front of the house, he told his mother to pack the bag for him. he didn't know if it was to take him off for a reward for his writing or to go to jail. he did both.
with a regime like that, be the president "elected" or simply imposed by the gun, down on the street it seemed not to make any difference.
maybe the better judge of a decent rule is not simply if it addresses the safety and food concerns of the people, but if it tolerates dissent and can be replaced without violence.
ken
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
517 803-8839
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Moses Ochonu <meochonu@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2022 9:55 AM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Are coups back?Consider this: the stealing field is often narrow and the circle of thieves smaller in a military rule than in a so-called civilian "elected" democratic regime.
So, when it comes to corruption and good governance, it's a wash between civilian "elected" governments and military ones.
Which is one of the reasons Africans are turning to military kleptocrats whom they hope would at least guarantee some stability and be decisive with decisio-making, good or bad.--
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 30, 2022, at 8:08 AM, Harrow, Kenneth <harrow@msu.edu> wrote:
i would add to his analysis that the army is often in control of the economic resources, or seeks to acquire land, businesses, and dominates. so they are not an outside neutral player in this, but a kleptocracy, in the final analysis.not everywhere, apparently; but when there are coups, that will follow.ken
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
517 803-8839
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Oluwatoyin Adepoju <ovdepoju@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2022 7:08 AM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Are coups back?--A most intriguing piece by Eniola
--On Sun, Jan 30, 2022, 12:22 DR SIKIRU ENIOLA <drsikirueniola@gmail.com> wrote:
--A very fundamental dimension of this argument will find a logical analysis in Professor Emeagwali's submission. We all know what democracy is. We are really not happy at how it is operated in Africa especially. However, there had been examples of thriving democracies that are truncated by American led disintegration units. In existing democracies now, prospects of good governance are being dimmed by the shenanigans of the Brentwood institutions which will often require the withdrawal of all parameters that enhance social services in a nation.The arguments have been made that the devaluation of currencies often arise from the non production of an economic structure which seeks to import more that it exports. This is what the modern economic slavery strategy planted in the intellectual space. The fact is that the big players manipulates the economic policies that not only put their currencies above others but that dictates damaging fluctuations in third world economies.Consequently, the aggregate of these subtle acts of sabotage prompts civil unrests and a general break down of law and order. The hoipoloi sees no causative factor beyond their leaders. Following this chain of reactions, elements in the Armed Forces rise to correct what they perceive as ineptitude. Since the army is not an institution that was programmed for civilian governance, repression, dictatorship and all forms of misrule emerge. The people will continue to protest and die until the nation fails. This is the usual road plied by the colonial coalition to keep the third world crawling.
On Tue, Jan 25, 2022, 7:59 PM 'Emeagwali, Gloria (History)' via USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> wrote:
--The truth is that the official advocates of democracy are oftenhypocritical. They went against a democratic Mosaddeghgovernment in Iran in 1953 in favor of feudalism; a democraticallyelected government of Arbenz in Guatemala, 1954; Brazil in 1964;and more recently seemed to prefer the TPLF, by no means democratic, against ademocratically elected government in Ethiopia. It turns out thatdemocracy is often just a word.
Professor Gloria Emeagwali
History Department, Central Connecticut State University
www.africahistory.net
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Harrow, Kenneth <harrow@msu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2022 1:15 PM
To: USAAfricaDialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Are coups back?Please be cautious: **External Email**
there is a new issue of the African Studies Review out (64:3).in it they have an "African Studies Keyword" and the word is Democracy. It was written by Nic Cheesemand and Sishuwa Sishuwa.
maybe this would bear on your reading of liberal democracy, moses.
my impression is that africans have been fighting for democracy ever since colonialism came. but what is democracy? i think of it as the people being self-governing, regardless of the model. it could be parliamentary, direct, indirect, representative etc.i am angry at the failures in the united states since my vote counts less than people in smaller states, a system set up by slaveowning states to enable them to country free northern states' greater population and urban centers.we are "relatively" democratic.every nation must be like that since they are too large to enable people to sit under a tree and give their opinion and then vote.
are autocracies better? i believe autocracies can function only by theboss paying off his army police bigmen supporters, at the expense of the people. it is not just.gotta goken
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
517 803-8839
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Moses Ebe Ochonu <meochonu@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2022 12:08 PM
To: USAAfricaDialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Are coups back?--Toyin Adepoju:
In 2010 or thereabouts, there was a coup in Niger and Nigeriens trooped out to celebrate the coup. That was a shock to the "democratization" brigade, but some of us were not surprised.
Then it happened in Mali more recently and people celebrated.
It then happened in Guinea and the coup was celebrated with a massive street rally, the coup plotters mobbed as heroes.
The situation in Burkina Faso is fluid, and I haven't seen audiovisual evidence of how the people reacted, but I would not be surprised if there were/are celebrations there too.
Which means, we should pose the difficult question of why people in these countries are celebrating coups, which they should be protesting in an era of "democratization" and "democratic" normativity.
Could it be that the liberal democratic model uncritically adopted and implemented across Africa is dysfunctional and has failed to promote unity and security and to fulfill the cardinal promise the pro-democracy forces made in the era of democratization: that liberal democracy would produce economic development and accountability?
--On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 9:20 PM Oluwatoyin Adepoju <ovdepoju@gmail.com> wrote:
Is it Africans generally welcoming these coups or armed men taking power by force whatever people think?
Toyin
--On Tue, Jan 25, 2022, 02:36 Moses Ochonu <meochonu@gmail.com> wrote:
Are coups back? That may not be the right question. The right question may be, what's souring Africans on Western style democracy and making coups attractive and popular again? That question deserves a truthful answer, not an answer that uncritically reiterates the Washington Consensus and it's associated talking points and buzzwords about the imperative of "democratization."--
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 24, 2022, at 7:00 PM, Toyin Falola <toyinfalola@austin.utexas.edu> wrote:
--
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