On Apr 21, 2022, at 2:22 PM, Harrow, Kenneth <harrow@msu.edu> wrote:
i would give up donbas; it's lost anyway, like crimeanot up to us!k
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
517 803-8839
harrow@msu.edu
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Toyin Falola <toyinfalola@austin.utexas.edu>
Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2022 2:26 PM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Not a War to End All Wars----Ken:
I teach today, which will prevent my intervention. I love arguments, as my intention is not to win but to learn. I don't hold to any position that does not shift.
I love your diversion. But I love more the point about not seeing the nation-state as sacrosanct.
If I were called to a negotiation party, and I were to choose between:
- giving Putin a tiny size of Ukraine to end the war today; or
- Continuing to fight and 5000 are killed in the next few months
I will choose a).
After Putin, that tiny size will be returned back to Ukraine unless it contains gold! Putin's ego will not be same as that of his successors.
The over-emphasis on Putin is a problem. It is even done not just at the expense of Ukraine but of Russia itself. We talk as if there are no Russians, millions of people who are victims of Putin, of Biden, of all of them.
I have been told many times in the US "your ancestors sold my people into slavery!"
My ancestors?
TF
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Harrow, Kenneth <harrow@msu.edu>
Date: Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 1:06 PM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Not a War to End All Warsto follow moses's logic for a second:
israel is in control of the palestinians, and has largely done badly by them. ,many hate the israelis, and the line between that and antisemitism is non-existent for most.
israelis conquered the palestinians, but they refuse to roll over and play dead. israelis are angry about their resistance, and see in it much hatred for the jews. the result is that conservative or orthodox jews particularly hate the arabs in return, and in particular conflate that hatred with anti-islamic scorn.
i know this is true.
yet, yet, despite all this, there is a bottom line. the israelis expropriated palestinian arab lands, conquered their territory, and encroached in jerusalem and the west bank even more on their territory. and even arabs living in israel experience second rate status.
in short, it isn't what's in the hearts of these people that will enable us to determine a just solution.
lastly, what's in conquerors' hearts might be a mix: paternalistic benevolence; superiority and scorn; indifference and hatred. etc etc. you get it all; you got it all in colonialism, and today. that's why i prefer to judge by the actions, not the expressions of sentiments. johnson's great war to end racism wound up leaving american blacks no better off materially than before, despite the rhetoric.
ken
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
517 803-8839
harrow@msu.edu
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Moses Ochonu <meochonu@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2022 1:36 PM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Not a War to End All Wars
Why do we always invoke the presence of anti-Black racists and anti-semites in the Ukrainian army as some sort of reason for not sympathizing with the humanity of a society being decimated by a bullying, murderous superpower?
Is Russia not the headquarters of racism, neo-Nazism, anti-Black racism, and xenophobia? Are many of the Russian racists, anti-Semites, and xenophobes not in the Russian army? If Russia were to be invaded, would be even bring that up as mitigation for our human solidarity with the Russian victims of the invasion?
Poland, Finland, Germany, Britain, France, and all the other members of the EU and NATO fighting against Russia are also riddled with racists and xenophobes. Racism, anti-Semitic hate, and xenophobia are Euro-American problems, and no country in that zone is innocent.
The US military has racists, Islamophobes, skinheads, neo-Nazis, and other bigoted people as members. Would that justify an invasion of the US by a hostile neighbor or undermine our solidarity with the invaded?
Are there no anti-Black racists among the Palestinians, some of whom are fighting in the resistance against the Israeli occupation? Would it not be wrong to invoke the existence of racists among the resistance as reason to withhold empathy from the Palestinians?
There have never been morally perfect victims or objects of empathy that I know of throughout history.
By the way, does a country under the murderous siege of a superpower have the luxury of rejecting or purging the contribution of its racist and anti-semitic citizens to the resistance?
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 21, 2022, at 12:13 PM, Toyin Falola <toyinfalola@austin.utexas.edu> wrote:
Ken and Moses:
I decided to change the subject header. I am reading this war with different "eyes":
- War, when analysts are outside of war, is totally different from those in war situations. Suppose my children are in refugee camps and I am in Odessa? When do I want the war to end? Today.
- How many wars have resolved the crises that gave birth to them? Nigeria lost over a million lives in Biafra. Today, they need other wars. Sudan, Ethiopia, Niger, etc.
- Ukraine is a deeply divided society. This war will not give it the nationalism it seeks in the long run.
- The anti-black, anti-Semitic groups are an integral part of the fighting army. Like the Al-Q, Taliban, ISIS, they are coming back to create havocs.
- It will not transform Russia, unless its current power elite is overthrown. By whom?
- If it changes the use of "globalization" as a weapon, maybe there is a small gain. The world should not give power to a small segment of it to control the global economy. Until we diversify the power-base of globalization, many wars remain ahead.
Let me confess: I am a pacifist. I read too many scriptures from all main religious traditions. My commitment is to diplomacy.
TF
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