Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Professor Olufemi Taiwo: "Africa Must be Modern” ?

Dear Folu,

I did not mean to insult you, I went from memory,  and could not  scroll down on my Ipad, which initially wrote this on, as  I did not have access to all of the thread, and it was not my intention to make you  appear anonymous, but for which I apologise.

As to selling my soul, that's a quaint Promethean allusion that I do not subscribe to,  not least of all because,  if  that's for theologians to decide, they have no sense of my independence from the needs and demands of others' compromises, which I do not need to make.   I hold no tuck with, nor,   I would like you and others to know,  am I  defending anything; rather,  I'm asking people to widen their lens.  I do not have privileged access to the country. I have been there twice; and have been have been to Ethiopia more often. For the record,  I had to apply for a visa like everyone else.  I have had the good  and misfortune to  have been to  numerous African countries; and in many,  despite my passports,  have to apply  for visas there.

To be sure, whether on a cursory extensive trip, we can only go to so many places,  and my own my case it  really was not much beyond  80 kilometers out of Asmara. We see and bear witness to only so many things. If I have seem some things, I have not seen many that others have borne witness to that it would be naive and dishonest for me to claim otherwise, even if I believe, though,  there are a number of errors  of  or in reportage. Still, I  have no delusions that I  can only get to see so many things, but when I was there, my traveling was not circumscribed.  Do I believe in dictatorship and the the one party state? No, no more than I believe in the multi party states that are effectively one party states, like Ethiopia, and like many other African states that are de facto one party states that I  do not see the complaints about. I would like to know what you have read or seen  beyond the three sources that most people cite-- the NYT, the Amnesty Report and the BBC documentary.  I have seen and/or read all three plus many of other sources, which is why I   do not go in for one liners about  about gulags. 

There are are many reasons why Eritrea has come into focus; not least of all because of the Eritreans fleeing. It  is an authoritarian  one party state that has also thumbed its nose at some very important regional and global players, and was, of course, a supporter of ( with many caveats) ,  and was supported by,  Gaddafi. One of their major partners, even before 1993, were the Chinese,  who along with some smaller Canadian companies,  are major, and in many ways deeply problematical,  players in  Eritrea's resource extraction that thus far as excluded the US. The exodus of Eritreans is complex, and has been under way for a number of years, but it is getting the attention now because of that migratory crisis in North African, but also its role in one peculiarities of regional geopolitics in  part caused, yes, by people unwilling to live under circumstances of what they consider to be political and economic privation/repression. The sources of this flight have also, in part,  to do with the multilayered relationships to the Eritrean diaspora across thee continents-- US/Canada, Europe and the gulf, amongst other places, many of whom have financed their families' and friends flight.

However, I reiterate evocations can be grand and simple, but your one liner about gulags, as I said, Folu,  is not helpful intellectually or morally. Evocatory condemnation suppresses too many complexities that speak through moralism and righteous indignation  that mask more difficult moral questions and political realities.

Peace,
Pablo
 

On 2015-06-15 4:30 PM, Folu Ogundimu wrote:

Pablo:

This is your first contribution to this debate and it is shamefully disappointing. I am insulted that you will refer to me as 'someone who has ceased dialogue as a way of avoiding discussion.'

 I have a name, signed my piece, made my principled objection to the massive violation of people's rights by uncouth brutal dictators. It is OK for you to serve as an apologist for the regime because you have privileged access to the country, you do not wish to endanger your own access , you have no family members who suffer at the hands of the 'Vagabonds In Power' as our Fela of blessed memory would say. 

Chill, my brother. Defend the indefensible, sell your soul to the devil. 

Good luck

Folu

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 15, 2015, at 3:12 PM, Segun Ogungbemi <seguno2013@gmail.com> wrote:

oa,

A country that denies her people of their freedoms and rights is a threat to humanity. What is going on in Eritrea is indefensible. And it is shameful. 

Prof. Segun Ogungbemi

On Jun 15, 2015, at 4:28 AM, "Anunoby, Ogugua" <AnunobyO@lincolnu.edu> wrote:

That individual rights are denied or unequal does not mean that the rights are not there. If they were not there, they could not be denied and described as unequal.  

The case you make for the denial of individual rights in Eritrea was made in Mao's China, Fascist Italy, Nazi Germany, Fascist Spain, and the Soviet Union to name a few countries. It is now recognized in the countries that the denial was wrong. It served little good purpose at the end of the day in the sense that  same or even better outcomes could have been achieved without the denial.  

The national liberation you claim for Eritrea as excuse for abuses by the state is a delusion because the greater threat Eritrea faces is posed by its authoritarian government and not her neighbors. That government is a threat to its people and Eritrea's neighbors.

 

oa

From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com [mailto:usaafricadialogue@go,glegroups.com] On Behalf Of kwame zulu shabazz
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2015 8:04 PM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Professor Olufemi Taiwo: "Africa Must be Modern" ?

 

OA, 

 

As I noted previously, I would say Taiwo gets this thing about individual rights wrong or just partially right. To my thinking, African American appeals for justice were more about collective rights than individual rights. To be clear, I'm not saying that individual rights should be abandoned. I am saying that, in some instances, collective rights are foregrounded. Wartime is one such instance. The importance of collective rights was also the point of the African Charter on Human and Peoples Rights. 

 

And where on the planet do these vaunted "individual rights" exist? Here in the western world rights have always been unequal. Indigenous people, Black people, Brown people don't have "individual rights" in the USA.  Kaleif Browder, a young African American boy, was held for three years at one of the most violent prisons in the USA, Rikers, without being charged. He committed suicide. Native Americans are at the bottom of every quality-of-life indicator. 

 

I am unclear as to what "human history" you are referring to. And I disagree that the Eritrean struggle for liberation was "delusional." I have not even heard Eritreans who are critical of the regime make that claim. Or perhaps you mean delusional as in a creeping disenchantment post-struggle a la Armah's "Beautyful Ones?" 

 

Time will tell. 

 

Presently, Eritrea's status is precarious. I think that is obvious to all--hardly "bogey."  Here in the USA "we" have sacrifice supposed "individual rights" for a regime of mass surveillance cloaked as "national security" (Rand Paul made minor dent in the Patriot Act, but that was more political than principle). But surveillance has always been a fact of life for African Americans.

 

On Jun 14, 2015, at 6:54 PM, Anunoby, Ogugua <AnunobyO@lincolnu.edu> wrote:

 

"... In such instance individual freedom must be sacrificed for national liberation."

kzs

 

Is the case being made that the end justifies the means?

What national liberation? Who is it for? What is its cost including shame to Eritreans?

Is the suggestion that national liberation is not possible except individual freedom is denied? Of course it is. 

It is usually autocratic political regimes that employ the bogey of national security to legitimize the denial of citizens' personal freedom- a fundamental human right.  

Samuel Johnson was right when he said that " the flag is the refuge of a scoundrel." 

Human history is likely to repeat itself in Eritrea. A majority of Eritreans will sooner or later acknowledge the wanton waste of blood, time, and treasure they endured for the delusion of national liberation, if they do not already.

 

oa

 

 

From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com [mailto:usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of kwame zulu shabazz
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2015 4:21 PM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Professor Olufemi Taiwo: "Africa Must be Modern" ?

 

Folu, 

 

I stand my statement. Essentially what is at issue is the realpolitik of revolution. And there are just too many Eritreans challenging these hyperbolic charges that Eritrea = Nazi Germany to ignore. Yes, young people are fleeing Eritrea. But thats true in many parts of Africa. Yes, there are forced labor camps in Eritrea. But we also have them here in the USA, the bastion of "democracy." Compulsory military is not sinister. It is necessary given the history of aggression against Eritrea. Eritrea has many flaws. I agree. It seems clear to me that there are human rights abuses in Eritrea. I condemn it. But its also true that Eritrea has made remarkable strides whilst refusing western aid--education and healthcare, for example. Any African leader who makes the courageous choice of self-reliance will certainly have many difficult obstacles to overcome. Individual freedom, electoral politics and "democracy" lauded in Taiwo's book are not workable in Eritrea at present time. They are bordered by aggressors backed by AFRICOM. In such instance individual freedom must be sacrificed for national liberation. The alternative is to become puppets of US aggression like Ethiopia and Djibouti. 

 

kzs

 

 

On Jun 14, 2015, at 2:33 PM, Folu Ogundimu <ogundimu3@gmail.com> wrote:

 

I see how well informed you are. Did your Eritrean confidants also tell you what proportion of the Eritrean population is in prison, forced labor camps, and compulsory extended military service? And is it such a mystery that so many of the Africans perishing in the Sahara and the Mediterranean on the flight to Europe are Eritreans? Perhaps these facts are concocted too.

 

 Wake up Dr. Shabazz, true Pan-Africanists don't defend evil blindly just because we are all black brothers. We cannot excuse Western imperialism and its neo-imperial agenda but turn a blind eye to the worst atrocities being perpetrated against the African people by megalomaniac leaders who have self-indulgent aspirations of grandeur.   

 

I will say no more on this topic. You are welcome to your own views and agenda, brother. 

 

F. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 14, 2015, at 8:59 AM, kwame zulu shabazz <kwameshabazz@gmail.com> wrote:

I have met many Eritreans who have told me otherwise. What is your source for comparing Eritrea to Nazi Germany?

 

On Jun 14, 2015, at 7:15 AM, Folu Ogundimu <ogundimu3@gmail.com> wrote:

 

Don't uphold Eritrea as a paragon of a moral, modern African state, please. We can do better than live in Gulags and hail oppressors as patriotic leaders. 

 

F. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 13, 2015, at 9:45 PM, kwame zulu shabazz <kwameshabazz@gmail.com> wrote:

Agree, sister Gloria. 

 

And when African leaders chart a path of self-determination they are assassinated, overthrown, smeared or otherwise undermined--frequently with western connivance. The most recent example being Eritrea now labeled a "brutal dictatorship" by the US govt. 

 

I've ordered Taiwo's book and was able to read the intro and a substantial part of Chapter 1. Interestingly, the author says he identified with Marxist principles in Nigeria. He then went to Canada to school only to discover that capitalism wasn't that bad after all. Modernity is western thing (no mention of the ongoing oppression of First Nations/Indigenous Canadiens). Yes, he concedes, the west has got some things wrong, slavery, for example. However, because they have embraced individualism and the related principle of individual rights, western nations have shown the capacity to correct themselves. He correctly notes that all societies have gone through a communalistic stage. Africans, according to Taiwo, are stuck in this phase thus impeding their development. 

 

African Americans didn't have to invent anything new in their demand for equal rights, they simply insisted that America live up to its lofty principles of modernity. I agree. But that isn't the whole story. He is unaware that communism played a key role in challenging racism in the Jim Crow South.  A role that was only reluctantly taken up by the NAACP. He is critical of the conservative American right and what he see  as the turn from modern ideas. He mentions specifically mass incarceration, the assault of voting rights, etc. 

 

Taiwo believes that "Africans" haven't embraced "modernity" because they focus incessantly on its negative aspects whilst ignoring the many positive elements. He seems to miss that contemporary geopolitics have also played a significant role in what he calls Africa's "backwardsness"; that western development depends on African underdevelopment; that the principles of modernity didn't just "correct" gross injustices. Rather "modernity" America required the brutal oppression of Indigenous Americans and Africans. That oppression is less brutish but ongoing. Just as development in the west depends on Africa's raw materials presently. 

 

kzs

 

 

On Jun 13, 2015, at 3:00 PM, Emeagwali, Gloria (History) <emeagwali@mail.ccsu.edu> wrote:

 

Is Taiwo  calling for Africa to embrace  neo-liberalism, cut-throat capitalism,

western hegemony, World  Governance (unipolarity),  extra-judicial drones,

a military - prison-industrial system, Big Pharma and its toxic pharmaceuticals,

corporatism and rule by corporations etc.



These features may be considered part of  modernity

by some analysts, rightly or wrongly.



That is why I look forward  eagerly to the definition of modernity.



Since you have read the book, Pablo, kindly shed some light on this

so that we don't jump to the wrong conclusions.



G



Professor Gloria Emeagwali
History Department
CCSU. New Britain. CT 06050
africahistory.net
vimeo.com/user5946750/videos
Gloria Emeagwali's Documentaries on
Africa and the African Diaspora

________________________________
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com[usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Pablo [pidahosa@yorku.ca]
Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2015 3:11 PM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Professor Olufemi Taiwo: "Africa Must be Modern" ?

It would help if people read Femi's book.

Pablo

On 2015-06-13 10:49 AM, Anunoby, Ogugua wrote:
I agree. I will add exploring modernity, warts and all too.
oa

From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> [mailto:usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Emeagwali, Gloria (History)
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 2:28 PM
To: 'usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>'; Wanazuoni
Subject: RE: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Professor Olufemi Taiwo: "Africa Must be Modern" ?

I  hope he spent quite a while defining what he considered 'modernity' to be.
GE

From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> [mailto:usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 8:00 PM
To: Wanazuoni
Cc: Waafrika
Subject: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Professor Olufemi Taiwo: "Africa Must be Modern" ?

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