Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Biden and Ukraine

hi toyin,

i think there are some points where we agree. and others, less so.

where to begin:

from the start of the war, there were members of the list who supported russia's actions, no matter what. and others who opposed them, no matter what.

some of the points of disagreement turned on nato, was this a real threat to russia, did its actions justify russia's invasion.

--my position is nothing justified russia's invasion. i also lean, as has moses, on the belief that individual countries' sovereignty must be respected, that invasions and war do not settle disagreements justly, with maybe some exceptions. one exception is genocide. the failure to intervene in rwanda's genocide was one of the crimes of the 20^th c., and the responsibility for that lay with the belgians and french, who convinced the u.s. to prevent un peacekepers from being augmented. ultimately clinton apologized. but 800,000 died, and no westernpower paid any price.

the responsible parties in rwanda did pay a price, as was just.

the russians are using arguments like nazi this or nato that to commit the crime of invading a neighboring sovereign country and attacking its people and independence, as they did before in georgia. they commited war crimes against civilians in syria and chechnia. and are doing the same in mali, and perhaps the c.a.r. it baffles me why anyone would want to excuse this. not baffles, really. there are economic and political interests at stake--hardly just reasons for these crimes.

--the ukrainians are resisting and paying the price. realistically they should sue for peace and cede territory. in fact, we know they already did this with crimea; none of us knows they are not offering compromises to putin, but he appears to be a horrific maniac who want to restore russian imperial glory that was lost with the end of the u.s.s.r.

i also don't know realistically how much freedom to manouvre zelensky has now that they have had war on their soil, and bodies piling up of people willing to die for their country. the algerian revolution might be a parallel about the margins for negotiation, which finally ended when the french govt changed.

i say all this in the belief that russia and cuba and other revolutionary states, whose revolutions, like the french, was glorious, turned sour with the rise of authoritiarianism

some on this list are ok with authoritarianism. i find it generally, and in the long run, against the interests of the people, which is why we had those revolutions in the first place: to assert the just power of the people to overcome oppressive forces, either from the outside or inside. i belong to the african litrrature association, whose ffounding principles included the freedom of african peoples everywhere. that principle is sacred. it also should apply to ukraine.

--that said, i agree that all parties should press for peace. i do not agree that the russians want peace and a nice anti-nazi ukraine, that's patently false. they want to expand their power. and they see nato as the obstacle, see biden as a weak opponent, and they use the language of nuclear weapons to intimidate the opponents.

-- i don't feel confident about reports affirming that the sanctions have no effect. i don't feel i know for sure what the true position of the west is in this conflict. people on this list affirm this or that; i am skeptical.

there seems to be a bottom line, for some. that is, the west is always imperialist and wrong in its actions, and thus russian opposition is basically needed and good.

i do not agree with any of it. there is much for serious discussion we could have on any of these points, but ideological shots do not really add up to anything.

i feel quite open on all these points. there is much we can say about the noxious motives of the great powers of our day, from the americans, the west, the russians and the chinese. but once we have arguments that seek only to justify pre-established opinions, they become fruitless.

--to make it simple, no matter how wrong the west was or is, in this or that circumstance, that's irrelevant when judging whether russia is in the wrong here. the case against nato expansionism, baiting the russian bear, igniting the conflict, is a legitimate one raised by conservatives and moderates like kissinger or friedman from the start. they are realpolitik analysts, not revolutionaries who care about the power of the people.

i align with those who want a just world order, not one governed by power. that means to oppose the power of dictators, as was done with the glorious arab spring, with african revolutions against imperialism, and the uprising of the people as in russia and france in the past. it baffles me why anyone devoted to african sovereignty and autonomy would not lean on those same principles in the case of this conflict as well.

ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

harrow@msu.edu

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From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Toyin Falola <toyinfalola@austin.utexas.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2022 5:38 AM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Biden and Ukraine

 

Ken:

As in many wars, the longer it drags the more it fades from regular conversation. I don't follow the war anymore. My arguments remain the same:

1. Zelensky and Putin must talk.
2. To think that Putin will pay for all those damages is an illusion.
3. For Europe to keep spending on defense is not the way to go. I was recently in France, Germany and Switzerland. The cost of living is high.
4. Biden may end up losing the mid-term electiion, and what this means may be a diminished presidency.
5. Whom do you humiliate when this war comes to an end? This is a problem.
6. If you lose 200 people per day, what is the responsibility of regional and international leadership.

TF

 

From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Harrow, Kenneth <harrow@msu.edu>
Date: Thursday, June 23, 2022 at 4:04 AM
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Biden and Ukraine

in the western press i see, ukraine is seen to be losing maybe 200 per day, and territory in the east. nothing about winning. the u.s. is reassessing how to come to terms with some kind of accommodation with russian accessing/appropriating ukrainian territory

ken

 

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

harrow@msu.edu

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From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cornelius Hamelberg <corneliushamelberg@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2022 4:18 PM
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Biden and Ukraine

 

A few days ago I read in  Svenska Dagbladet (an excellent  Conservative Swedish newspaper) that Ukraine was losing a battalion ( approximately 1,000 soldiers) each and every day. At the same time, all we hear from the mostly Western Press is that Ukraine is "winning " the war; common sense wants to know how Ukraine could be winning the war when in fact Ukraine is steadily losing more and more territory to Russia. Right now, the former comedian is dreaming big, instead of seeking peace and pursuing it, he's boasting that with a little help from his NATO friends he's gonna take back Crimea...

 

The War in Ukraine  (An assessment from 13th June) by the Schiller Institute ( not exactly my cup of tea

On Monday, 20 June 2022 at 15:38:52 UTC+2 Gloria Emeagwali wrote:

https://asiatimes.com/2022/06/biden-stares-down-from-ukraine-economic-ledge/

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