well, i have to say you now are striking notes with which i am mostly
in agreement.
i can't help questioning propositions, and surely there was a mix in
the motives of westerners, a mix of people, hell, even me, i am
"westerner" who has taught for some years in africa....
still, taking the broad historical view, as you are doing, of course
you are right. i know best the french interventions in africa's
history; i know of the really egregious broad patterns of belgian and
then portuguese engagements; all of it. some of the motives of
individuals paint one picture; but on the overall relations of power
and exploitation, you are right.
but china? i have very poor impressions of china's records on
business and yes human rights, labor rights, workers' rights, freedom
of the press. maybe that doesn't matter as much to you, but propping
up the sudanese regime during the massacres of darfur, come on, how
can we shut our eyes at that?? you say, let africans decide about
china's investments. again, come on; you are talking about the govts
of drc, sudan, guinea, zimbabwe, etc, who are deciding. not the african people.
if there were votes on the street in dakar, china would lose.
but i admit i don't know really, basically, if it will prove good for
africa or not. that's why i put it out as a question; i don't see
answers yet, certainly not in the way you've put it. but i hope it
will spur african economies, and not simply enrich the dominant classes again.
lastly, it is ridiculous to exclude "westerners" from forming
judgments on this question. you are right to condemn the power
relations; but when you extend it to all the people, to everyone,
well, there is nothing left to say, not just for me, but for many who
might well qualify as best informed and best intentioned on this or
that issue. that is ridiculous; we just have lost, for instance,
basil davidson. shall we not read his books? if you have read this far, why?
ken
At 04:16 AM 7/24/2010, you wrote:
>Ken,
>
>Western nations in my eyes, are identical to unapologetic and
>unrepentant Nazis, such Nazis despite the horrors of Holocaust, Nazis
>who then pretend to advise Jews and while insisting, that they the
>Nazis are MERELY after the best interests of Jews who now want to deal
>with non-Nazis, Arabs, lets say!
>
>Westerners through slavery, colonialism, apartheid, neocolonialism,
>Cold War geopolitics, direct interventions-manipulations, have in
>plethora of ways perpetrated atrocities, horrors and brutalities upon
>Africans... after 600 years of this most egregious and abusive and
>lopsided "relationship" or force "marriage" China, without atrocious
>track record, China is the new suitor of African nations, and
>westerners, jealous and green with envy, seek, in their "infinite"
>wisdom, to lord it over Africans AGAIN through lies and sundry
>shenanigans, and then subvert Chinese forays into Africa. China may be
>no angel, BUT, western nations are proven devils regarding Africa and
>there is a lot of unsavory track record and pungent-putrid historical
>facts behind the feelings of Africans regarding western nations.
>
>We are tired of being taken advantage of by westerners... we are
>entitled to new suitors
>
>Where were westerners when China sent more than 40,000 doctors to
>African nations? Where were westerners when China signed $29 billion
>dollars bilateral and multilateral agreements this year with Africans?
>
>AND, if Chinese money is good for the American economy, Chinese
>investment is surely good for Africa, sans western platitudes,
>pretentious, hypocritical-double-speak Human Rights, Good Governance,
>Democracy, Rule of Law, Due Process etc
>
>Let the competition begin and let Africans be the judge as to who are
>our authentic-genuine friends and partners... Why do Africans need
>self-serving and self-interested westerners to articulate African best
>interest? History is my witness regarding Africa's long suffering in
>the hands of western nations. Westerners should leave Africans to make
>"imperfect" judgment in connection with China etc
>
>Western nations is pot, calling China, kettle, black. Please!
>
>
>Paul I. Adujie
>646-355-7166
>New York, United States
>
>
>
>
>
>
>On Jul 23, 1:10 pm, kenneth harrow <har...@msu.edu> wrote:
> > is it investment? what is the difference between investment and what
> > patrick bond calls looting, in Looting Africa? who is profiting from
> > these investments? who is being ripped off?
> > when timber is harvested, where does it go to be processed, before
> > being purchased abroad? the primary processor now of timber,
> > including especially illegal timber, is china. in 2005, when bond
> > wrote his book, he cited www.globaltimber.org.uk, that 50% of all
> > timber exported to china was illegal. anyone who has seen the flow of
> > trucks carting logs out of the forests would regard this with horror.
> > anyone who knows the atrocious conditions of mining in much of e
> > congo would regard more unregulated "investments" there with horror.
> > anyone who believes the people of congo will benefit from it are
> > naive. bond cites ben shiller as claiming that china has purchased up
> > to 75% of sudan's ivory. in ethiopia china built great housing
> > blocks--ultimately taken over by the military
> > go ahead and vilify me or the west all you want; go ahead and compare
> > china with other places; none of that changes the reality that the
> > champion of unregulated global neoliberal capitalism, china, is
> > responsible for having exploited resources and labor as only the most
> > ugly of capitalists have done.
> > it is a smokescreen to invoke the ills of the west, my origins, or
> > anything else, other than china's interests and operations. maybe
> > they are great. maybe they are not. why this enthusiasm for embracing
> > what appears to be a regime willing to bolster the worst regimes
> > imaginable in the name of profit and cash.
> > there is mostly one kind of investment that matters: that which
> > enables a country to develop its own infrastructure: when japanese
> > invested in automaking in korea, the koreans insisted on the transfer
> > of technology, and ultimately were able to develop their own auto
> > industry. when nigeria starting making volkswagons, there was no
> > transfer of technology.
> > is china making possible the positive growth of africa, or has it
> > found a way to make deals with autocratic states which benefit china
> > and the autocrats with whom they deal?
> > i am not an apologist for the west in posing these questions: no one
> > would be stronger in attacking western imperialism in africa. but
> > this defense of china, without any attempt to actually examine what
> > they are doing, and who benefits, does nothing but raise my
> > suspicions about its true effects, not to mention its apologists.
> > ken
> >
> > At 05:07 PM 7/23/2010, you wrote:
> >
> > >Chief Ikhide, thank you for your elegant presentation up there!
> >
> > >America and Europe (western nations) and the good Professor Ken Harrow
> > >are oxymoronic and hypocritical in the stridency against China!
> >
> > >It is their time tested patterns of obfuscations and permanent double
> > >standards!
> > >We are all familiar with their couching purely economic competitions
> > >in gobbledygook euphemisms and flowery and embellished terminologies,
> > >such Human Rights, Democracy, Good governance and other high ideals
> > >which they never practice when they deal Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Egypt,
> > >or as when they were in bed with Saide Barre of Somalia and Mobutu
> > >Sese Sekor of the Congo, or as when the provided succor and lubricants
> > >for the atrocious apartheid minority regime in South Africa!
> >
> > >My brother President Obama went to China, the same nation under
> > >discussion here, and President Obama did not say a word about Human
> > >Rights, the Rule of Law, Due Process and Democracy to the Chinese as
> > >he did in Accra on July 11, 2009. African nations should be allowed to
> > >select friends and business partners, without the "father" and
> > >"mother" knows best of America and Europe and our good friend here,
> > >Ken Harrow, it is just harrowing to read his excoriations of China,
> > >China invested (signed agreements to the tune of) $29 billion dollars
> > >in Africa this year... Can Mr. Harrow say the same of America and
> > >Europe) a.k.a western nations?
> >
> > >I am simply tired of this Jesus Christ complex as exemplified by Mr.
> > >Harrow, only outsiders, westerners in particular, know what is best
> > >for us Africans? Haba!
> >
> > >Yeah, give me democracy, give me investment as well!
> >
> > >Paul I. Adujie
> > >646-355-7166begin_of_the_skype_highlighting
> 646-355-7166 end_of_the_skype_highlighting
> > >New York, United States
> >
> > >On Jul 22, 5:29 pm, kenneth harrow <har...@msu.edu> wrote:
> > > > ikhide
> > > > i am afraid that because china isn't europe people think its
> > > > investments in africa will somehow work better for africa, that they
> > > > need to be measured against europe.
> > > > no one disputes the terrible relations europe, the west, created with
> > > > africa, the terrible things done, the exploitation before and after
> > > > independence.
> > > > no one on the left praises a world order dominated by the west.
> > > > however, what is it that we are opposed to? what are the forms of
> > > > exploitation that we oppose? please don't simply accept china's
> > > > investments as automatically beneficial because they are investments
> > > > or non-european. we can condemn european interventions, and also be
> > > > cautious about the price being paid for chinese investment.
> > > > i have heard very little to make me confident that china will do
> > > > anything good for "africa" with its investments: it will enrich the
> > > > powerful who control the economies, who control the mines in e congo,
> > > > and it will permit the dynamics of exploitation to continue, perhaps
> > > > to worsen, as there will be no control on the powerful rulers or
> > > > figures who are selling off the resources.
> > > > if this is incorrect, let me be shown the evidence.
> > > > i couldn't care less if china "invests" in africa more than france or
> > > > england or the u.s. i care that the very fact that it, and malaysia
> > > > and india are finding mines and oil to invest in will facilitate the
> > > > worst excesses of abuse.
> > > > who is buying the tin--casserite--in e congo now? malaysia. where is
> > > > it passing through? rwanda. what are the conditions of the mining and
> > > > selling of casserite? some legal, most a complete nightmare that has
> > > > accounted for around 3-4 million deaths in the e congo since 1996.
> > > > who is a major investor in the mines now, everywhere in africa? guess
> > > > who, china.
> > > > who cares????
> > > > there is a simple question that i can't answer but want economists on
> > > > the list to answer: who stands to benefit from chinese investments?
> > > > what are the conditions of the investments, and who benefits?
> > > > what is the price for the investments?? who will pay in the long run?
> > > > ken
> >
> > > > At 09:35 PM 7/22/2010, you wrote:
> >
> > > > >"let me see if i understand this correctly: since china did not
> > > > >colonize africa, it is ok if it invests in any govt project in
> > > > >africa, invests in guinea the day after the stadium massacre, since
> > > > >business and human rights should have no relationship. invests in
> > > > >sudanese oil, regardless of what genocide that makes possible
> > > > >i think hitler would love that logic'
> >
> > > > >- Ken Harrow
> > > > >Well, Ken, perhaps the Cold War has truly run its course and we are
> > > > >the better for it. Egbe belu, ugo belu, "Let the kite perch and let
> > > > >the eagle perch too. If one says no to other, let his wing break..."
> > > > >Not sure why you are so irritated by the prospect of China expanding
> > > > >into Africa (I mean what are our options in this age?) Sounds like
> > > > >you have a beef with China getting a piece of the action. But then,
> > > > >despite what many people think, Africa is rich; there is enough for
> > > > >all. And we truly need the investment. So much needs to be done and
> > > > >I personally welcome China's investment. A lot of work needs to be
> > > > >done, we need to build roads, bridges, utilities, safety and
> > > > >security infrastructure... I am not afraid of China. I am worried
> > > > >about our leaders giving away the store yet again. But then, that is
> > > > >where we all come in. We have got to keep pushing for transparency
> > > > >in these relationships. I am keeping an open mind...
> >
> > > > >On a comical note, as a little boy growing up in Nigeria, I (and my
> > > > >fellow little boys and little girls) was a beneficiary of the Cold
> > > > >War. China actively courted us. We got free copies of the Little Red
> > > > >Book extolling China's communist manifesto, etc, etc and they always
> > > > >sent us glossy hagiographies er magazines of Chairman Mao leading
> > > > >the Red Army to victory. The Chinese girls were so pretty in
> > > > >uniform, LOL. I so admired Chairman Mao and looked forward to being
> > > > >like him someday. We even organized "marches" in his honor ;-)))
> > > > >Many years later, I was to learn from imperialist newspapers that
> > > > >the man hated to take baths. I regret that I did not know that about
> > > > >him when I was young. I would have asked him to adopt me. You see,
> > > > >like most of my friends at the time, I hated to take baths ;-)))))
> >
> > > > >Be well. If you are this irritated by China, what are you going to
> > > > >do to me when you find that I may be leading a Walmart delegation to
> > > > >Abuja soon to have em bilateral talks with my good friend Chief Dr.
> > > > >Goodluck Jonathan... After which I lead a MCDonalds delegation to
> > > > >see Babangida... We have got to sell those burgers ;-)
> >
> > > > >- Ikhide
> >
> > > > >--
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> > > > Kenneth W. Harrow
> > > > Distinguished Professor of English
> > > > Michigan State University
> > > > har...@msu.edu
> > > >517 803-8839begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 517
> 803-8839 end_of_the_skype_highlighting
> > > > fax 517 353 3755
> >
> > >--
> > >You received this message because you are subscribed to the
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> > >of Texas at Austin.
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> >
> > Kenneth W. Harrow
> > Distinguished Professor of English
> > Michigan State University
> > har...@msu.edu517
> 803-8839begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 517
> 803-8839 end_of_the_skype_highlighting
> > fax 517 353 3755
>
>--
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Kenneth W. Harrow
Distinguished Professor of English
Michigan State University
harrow@msu.edu
517 803-8839
fax 517 353 3755
--
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