Friday, September 10, 2010

USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [NIgerianWorldForum] RE: RE: Population problems are imaginary

 
 
Joe:
 
I would even go furthe by clarifying your statement thus:
 
" it is NOT every one that indulges that bulges; and it is NOT every indulgence that culminates in bulging. So we can say that "whoever that indulges could Bulge" --and for modern human beings, since the invention
of effective contraception bulging need not be accidental, but planned and wanted"
 
 
 
NB: Words in red are my edits.
 
 
Bye,
 
Ola
 




-----Original Message-----
From: Igietseme, Joseph (CDC/OID/NCPDCID) <jbi8@cdc.gov>
To: NIgerianWorldForum@yahoogroups.com; OlaKassimMD@aol.com; idowubobo@yahoo.com; ibk@usa.net; NIDOA@yahoogroups.com; NIDOCANADA@yahoogroups.com
Cc: afenmai@yahoogroups.com; usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com; naijapolitics@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, Sep 10, 2010 6:47 pm
Subject: [NIgerianWorldForum] RE: RE: Population problems are imaginary

 
Prince KC,
You are doing what I almost did; and when you caught me, I had to issue a Quick clarification. That is, the generalization that: """…whoever that indulges bulges. …." should actually be made conditional; because it is NOT every one that indulges that bulges; and it is NOT every indulgence that culminates in bulging. So we can say that "whoever that indulges could Bulge". Take care. JUI
 
From: NIgerianWorldForum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:NIgerianWorldForum@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Asagwara, Ken (EDU-ECY)
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 6:42 PM
To: NIgerianWorldForum@yahoogroups.com; OlaKassimMD@aol.com; idowubobo@yahoo.com; ibk@usa.net; NIDOA@yahoogroups.com; NIDOCANADA@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [NIgerianWorldForum] RE: Population problems are imaginary
 
 
Dr. Joe Igietseme:
 
A bi I lie? Mine own bi true talkooo!
 
Cheers, Bro.
 
KC Prince Asagwara
 
From: NIgerianWorldForum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:NIgerianWorldForum@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Igietseme, Joseph (CDC/OID/NCPDCID)
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 5:29 PM
To: NIgerianWorldForum@yahoogroups.com; OlaKassimMD@aol.com; idowubobo@yahoo.com; ibk@usa.net; NIDOA@yahoogroups.com; NIDOCANADA@yahoogroups.com
Cc: afenmai@yahoogroups.com; NaijaPolitics@yahoogroups.com; USAAfricaDialogue
Subject: [NIgerianWorldForum] RE: Population problems are imaginary
 
 
"""…whoever that indulges bulges. …."""Unquote Prof Prince KC Asagwara.
My Brother Prince KC, you got terms! Take care. JUI (imagining the tortuous or comfortable link between indulging and bulging!)
 
From: NIgerianWorldForum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:NIgerianWorldForum@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Asagwara, Ken (EDU-ECY)
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 6:21 PM
To: OlaKassimMD@aol.com; idowubobo@yahoo.com; ibk@usa.net; NIDOA@yahoogroups.com; NIDOCANADA@yahoogroups.com; NIgerianWorldForum@yahoogroups.com; ibk@usa.net
Subject: [NIgerianWorldForum] RE: NIDOA | Population problems are imaginary
 "The only ways by which a nation population can be controlled…are education and empowerment of women and gainful employment." Idowu
Idowu:
So, educated and empowered women with gainful employment do not indulge?
My Bro, whoever that indulges bulges.
Did the holy book not say to indulge and multiply? LOL!
 
Cheers.
 
KC Prince Asagwara
 
 
 
 
 
Quote:
 
"Ola:
So we should start forced abortion in Nigeria or give all the children rat poison immediately they are born. Imprisoned any parent that have more than 1 child.
 
The only ways by which a nation population can be controlled with the exception of the draconian methods suggested above are education and empowerment of women and gainful employment. No amount of your education of "e fe to so omo bibi" will work. It has never worked anywhere and I do not know how it will work in Nigerian male chauvinistic culture."
--- Idowu
UnQuote
 

ID:
 
I am sure you are aware that I am unlikely to ever recommend the kind of draconian measures you have suggested in your response
as it would amount to playing God.
 
But there are simple things we can do:
 
a) educate the girls so that they can stay in school longer, as you mentioned, so that marriages are delayed.
 
b) unlike you I believe that some education with increased access to family planning clinics will also help maintain
the population at a more sustainable level than it is now.
 
There is nothing wrong with letting the masses know what the elites already know-i.e. that  it is helpful to
limit the number of children they have to the number they can afford to adequately raise.
 
And that the idea that every human being should bring into the world as many number of children as they
wish in the belief that only the Almighty God can look after the children is founded on ignorance and encouraged
by immoral people like IBK, who despite their education and marital status finds nothing wrong with sowing their seeds with the help of
as many women as they can find.
 
It is wrong to accept the fact that Nigeria men are chauvinistic as an appropriate excuse to let them off the hook
for their own responsibility on family planning issues.
 
Bye,
 
Ola
 
------ Original Message ------
Received: 12:55 AM EAT, 09/10/2010
From: idowu <idowubobo@yahoo.com>
To: OlaKassimMD@aol.com, ibk@usa.net, NIDOA@yahoogroups.com, NIDOCANADA@yahoogroups.com, NIgerianWorldForum@yahoogroups.com, omoodua@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [OmoOdua] Re: NIDOA | Population problems are imaginary




 
"It is wishful thinking to assume that things are suddenly going to change in Nigeria
even with divined governance in such a dramatic manner that we would be able
to erase in a few years the human resource deficit--due to lack of proper education,
healthcare and other badly needed services and infrastructure that we have accumulated in a few years."-Ola
 
Ola:
So we should start forced abortion in Nigeria or give all the children rat poison immediately they are born. Imprisoned any parent that have more than 1 child.
 
The only ways by which a nation population can be controlled with the exception of the draconian methods suggested above are education and empowerment of women and gainful employment. No amount of your education of "e fe to so omo bibi" will work. It has never worked anywhere and I do not know how it will work in Nigerian male chauvinistic culture.

 
Idowu
"Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God." --Thomas Jefferson
 
"There may be times when we are powerless to prevent injustice, but there must never be a time when we fail to protest." -- Elie Wiesel
 
 
From: "OlaKassimMD@aol.com" <OlaKassimMD@aol.com>
To: ibk@usa.net; NIDOA@yahoogroups.com; NIDOCANADA@yahoogroups.com; NIgerianWorldForum@yahoogroups.com; omoodua@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, September 9, 2010 4:46:53 PM
Subject: NIDOA | Population problems are imaginary

 
IBK:
 
Thompson Ayodele, a co-author of the referenced article is well known to me.
I respect his views just as he respects mine. We agree on many
issues while we disagree on a few--the population issue being one.
 
This is the reason he forwarded a copy of the published article to me.
 
I have already arguedd against many of the points raised in Mr Ayodele's
co-authored published response to the British study which raised
some concerns over the unsustainable rate of growth of the population
in Nigeria and in most sub-Saharan African countries.
 
While a large healthy population comprised mostly of your adults might be
good for the national economy, the reverse is the case when the governemnt
has consistently failed to provide the necessary conducive envronment
to generate such a healthy and well educated young work force.
 
It is wishful thinking to assume that things are suddenly going to change in Nigeria
even with divined governance in such a dramtic manner that we would be able
to erase in a few years the human resource deficit--due to lack of proper education,
healthcare and other badly needed services and infrastructure that we have accumulated in a few years.
 
We can not keep on producing more and more children when we have not provided
enough class rooms in primary and secondary schools for those who were born
5 or 12 years ago and when the majority of our 25 year olds both educated and uneducated
ones remain jobless 5 , 10 or more years after graduation.
 
A country in which university graduates operate Okada to make a living is not one
that should turn a blind eye on the need for proper family planning.
 
A country in which a vast majority of her peoples live below the poverty line is
not one that should continue to breed indiscriminately in and out of wedlock
 
Mr Ayodele's co-authored article premises all the presumed advantages of unchecked
population growth on the  existence of proper governance under good, fortright and visionary and unsustainable
leaders--the absence of which is the same Achille's heel that has been the bane of Nigeria post independence.
 
The position being espoused is one that can be easily compared to someone going on
shopping spree on a credit card without limit, in the belief that he or she would win
the multi-million dollar jackpot the following week.
 
Failure to plan is planning to fail! Human beings have a higher calling than our cousins
the apes and other animals. We do not need to ieave everything to nature!
 
Family planning is a good thing!
 
 
Knowingly having children you cannot care for is a moral SIN in nation without an adequate welfare
system.
 
Bye,
 
Ola
 
NB:IBK---Learn a little bit of decorum from Mr Ayodele and others.
You can disagree with me without being abusive.
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Ibukunolu Alao Babajide <ibk@usa.net>
To: NIDOA@yahoogroups.com; NIDOCANADA@yahoogroups.com; NIgerianWorldForum@yahoogroups.com; omoodua@yahoogroups.com; OlaKassimMD@aol.com
Sent: Thu, Sep 9, 2010 4:31 pm
Subject: Re: [OmoOdua] Fwd: Population problems are imaginary
Ola Kassim,
You are brave to post this article that puts the scalpel through the thin membrane of your own position on the population debate.  Now what sayeth thee to this?
Give us another long prolix post on the issue.
IBK




------ Original Message ------
Received: 10:29 PM EAT, 09/09/2010
From: OlaKassimMD@aol.com
To: NIDOA@yahoogroups.com, NIDOCANADA@yahoogroups.com, NIgerianWorldForum@yahoogroups.com, omoodua@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [OmoOdua] Fwd: Population problems are imaginary




 
 
This is published in today's Punch and Guardian Newspapers:    "Whether a nation is poor or rich depends on the availability of economic  framework that provides incentives for working hard and taking risks. The  key elements of such framework are economic liberty, secured property  rights and fair and sensible rules of the market that are enforced  equally."    http://www.guardiannewsngr.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=22528:ayodele-and-sotola-population-problems-are-imaginary&catid=38:columnists&Itemid=615                Population problems are imaginary
 By Thompson Ayodele and Olusegun Sotola  Thursday, 09 September 2010 00:00 Opinion - Columnists    A recent report warns that Nigeria is teetering on the edge of a  demographic disaster. This warning is based on the bludgeoning population  in which there is no corresponding economic expansion. The report  consequently argues that the present population is out of balance and it  may spell doom as it increases to 213 million by 2050.    For the past three decades, there have been debates whether there is a  link between population and economic growth. The argument has been that  increased population retards economic growth. This assertion is dangerous.  It!
  merely draws attention away from the real barriers to economic growth..    There is the need for a rethink of accepted belief regarding the so-called  population problem. At the centre of population policy is whether  individuals themselves or politicians or national and international civil  servants
 should decide the number of kids parents should have. However, an  increase in population is an impetus for growth. The pattern of population  growth in Nigeria in the last two decades does not indicate that an  increase in population will lead to demographic disaster.    Between 1991 and 2008, Nigeria population increased from 88 million to 150  million, an increase of about 70 per cent. If an increase of about 70 per  cent in 17 years did not have d  emographic effect, then the argument that  demographic disaster will occur in!
  2050 when the population climbs to 213  million (an increase of 42!
  per cent in 44 years) seems not to hold water.  On the contrary, the problem is not too many people but lack of economic  freedom. Therefore, the usual gloom-doom associated with increased in  population is largely misplaced.    In actual fact, a long-term outlook of Nigeria population indicates the  likelihood of a decline. The population increased by over 70 per
 cent  between 1991 and 2008 (17 Years), and it will be growing by only 42 per  cent in 44 years. Since the present day Nigeria society seems to consider  large family un  desirable, the likelihood of a decreased in population  beyond 2050 is higher. The impression being created by the report is that  Nigeria is overpopulated or heading toward overpopulation. This, of  course, is absolutely misleading.    Contrary to this, research has shown that the more the p!
 eople, the more  the prosperity. It is more likely to see highly creative and innovative  people in China, India, Indonesia and Nigeria than other small countries.  Across the world, there are more millionaires in big cities than sparsely  populated countryside.  It may interest us to know that famine and  starvation has occurred in sparsely populated countries than densely  populated ones. Julian Simon, in one of his publications,  argues that  less people don't actually bring about economic
 growth. He rhetorically  asks: why are our ancestors not more prosperous when they were just a few  thousands on the planet?    Globally, highly populated countries are important to the world economy.  They provide the markets which drive entrepreneurship and exchange of  goods and services. The key factor that attracts and !
 retains Foreign  Direct Investment (FDI) in Nigeria is not the nat!
 ure of our political  system but the depth and size of the market. The astronomical growth in  the Telecom and the IT industry in Nigeria are essentially driven by  demand which is a function of the population. Because small countries  produce and consume only very few items and suffer from scale  diseconomies, they are largely u  nattractive for big investment except when  they have natural endowments.    The implication of reduced population in economic term is on  entrepreneurship and economic development. This will limit the market  prospects for future products.
 Increased in the number of newborns alone  can stimulate the economy. They can create market for some set of goods  which interlink with the whole economy. More importantly, they grow up  into productive work force. They marry, pay tax, defend the country  agains!
 t external aggression and care for the elderly.    A subtle agenda to foist on developing countries policies that aimed at  artificially controlling population will undermine both quantitative and  qualitative global development. Apart from making the   world underachieve  its full potentials, it will create demographic problems. In China, there  are now 32 million more male than female under the age of 20, sex  selective abortion account for almost all the excess. China also has high  rate of abandonment and infanticide of girl child.    The beliefs that high population density breads poverty flew in the face  of facts. If population density causes poverty, Japan and Hong Kong should  be the
 poorest parts of the world today. These are areas with high  population density but highly prosperous despite limited landmass. &n!
 bsp;  Population growth might cause short-term losses in term of c!
 ost but it is  bound to yield long-ter  m gains. In other words, the long-term benefits of  high population far outweigh the short-term costs. This is because as said  by Beisner "over their lifetimes, people tend to produce more than they  consume," the un-consumed balances usually add up to increase the wealth  and value of the society. Little wonder production has consistently  outgrown population.    Practical examples exist in aged society. Many developed economies are at  present promoting population growth. This is noticeable in some  Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) countries  where policy makers have designed policies aimed at arresting the ageing  population. A perfect example is Australia. Since May 2004 Australia  government
 has announced a "Baby Bonus" policy, paying!
  women an initial  A$3,000 per new child. The campaign since 2004 has been tagged: one baby  for your husband and one for your wife and one for the country.    The National Party has promised to double the baby bonus for stay-at-home  mothers if the coalition wins the federal election. In June, Australia  Senate passed a bill which will pay all parents who stay home the minimum  wage of $570 a week for 18 weeks. These measures are aimed at encouraging  families to have more children.    It is incontrovertible that human beings are the ultimate resource. Other  resources are useless without human innovation and exertion. An increase  human's number should therefore not be viewed as a disaster. The  population problem is a bogeyman. It prevents us from seeing human beings  as the ultimate resource. Rather proponents of high population encourage  p  eople to think that people are a burden !
 who are incapable of
 changing  their economic conditions without government help. However, the truth  remains that government is the big problem.    It is government policies which hinder wealth creation that are keeping  the people poor, under-achieved and less innovative. Whether a nation is  poor or rich depends on the availability of economic framework that  provides incentives for working hard and taking risks. The key elements of  such framework are economic liberty, secured property rights and fair and  sensible rules of the market that are enforced equally.    Nigeria should avoid health and demographic implication associated with  arbitrary population control. Policy makers ought not see population  growth as a pro  blem. Rather we should picture 150 million human brains  daily striving to improve their situations, solve economic problems and  above all create wealth. The proj!
 ected 213 million people will be doing so  in 2050.    *Ayodele and Sotola are with the
 Initiative for Public Policy Analysis, an  independent public policy think-tank based in Lagos. 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Thompson Ayodele <thompson@ippanigeria.org>
To: olakassimMD@aol.com
Sent: Thu, Sep 9, 2010 12:49 pm
Subject: Population problems are imaginary 
This is published in today's Punch and Guardian Newspapers:    "Whether a nation is poor or rich depends on the availability of economic  framework that provides incentives for working hard and taking risks. The  key elements of such framework are economic liberty, secured property  rights and fair and sensible rules of the market that are enforced  equally."    http://www.guardiannewsngr.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=22528:ayodele-and-sotola-population-problems-are-imaginary&cati!
 d=38:columnists&Itemid=615              Population problems are imaginary           By Thompson Ayodele and Olusegun Sotola  Thursday, 09 September 2010 00:00 Opinion - Columnists    A recent report warns that Nigeria is teetering on the edge of a  demographic disaster. This warning is based on the bludgeoning population  in which there is no corresponding economic expansion. The report  consequently argues that the present population is out of balance and it  may spell doom as it increases to 213 million by 2050.    For the past three decades, there have been debates whether there is a  link between population and economic growth. The argument has been that  increased population retards economic growth. This assertion is d!
 angerous.  It merely draws attention away from
 the real barriers to economic growth.    There is the need for a rethink of accepted belief regarding the so-called  population problem. At the centre of population policy is whether  individuals themselves or politicians or national and international civil  servants should decide the number of kids parents should have. However, an  increase in population is an impetus for growth. The pattern of population  growth in Nigeria in the last two decades does not indicate that an  increase in population will lead to demographic disaster.    Between 1991 and 2008, Nigeria population increased from 88 million to 150  million, an increase of about 70 per cent. If an increase of about 70 per  cent in 17 years did not have demographic effect, then the argumen  t th!
 at  demographic disaster will occur in 2050 when the population cl!
 imbs to 213  million (an increase of 42 per cent in 44 years) seems not to hold water.  On the contrary, the problem is not too many people
 but lack of economic  freedom. Therefore, the usual gloom-doom associated with increased in  population is largely misplaced.    In actual fact, a long-term outlook of Nigeria population indicates the  likelihood of a decline. The population increased by over 70 per cent  between 1991 and 2008 (17 Years), and it will be growing by only 42 per  cent in 44 years. Since the present day Nigeria society seems   to consider  large family undesirable, the likelihood of a decreased in population  beyond 2050 is higher. The impression being created by the report is that  Nigeria is overpopulated or heading toward overpopulation. This, of  course, is absolutely misleading. !
 ;   Contrary to this, research has shown that the more the people, the more  the prosperity. It is more likely to see highly creative and innovative  people in China, India, Indonesia and Nigeria than other small countries.  Across the world, there are more millionaires in big cities than sparsely
  populated countryside.  It may interest us to know that famine and  starvation has occurred in sparsely populated countries than densely  populated   ones. Julian Simon, in one of his publications,  argues that  less people don't actually bring about economic growth. He rhetorically  asks: why are our ancestors not more prosperous when they were just a few  thousands on the planet?    Globally, highly populated countries are important to the world economy.  They provide the markets which dr!
 ive entrepreneurship and exchange of  goods and services. The key !
 factor that attracts and retains Foreign  Direct Investment (FDI) in Nigeria is not the nature of our political  system but the depth and size of the market. The astronomical growth in  the Telecom and the IT industry in Nigeria are essentially driven by  demand which is a function of the popu  lation. Because small countries  produce and consume only very few items and suffer from scale  diseconomies,
 they are largely unattractive for big investment except when  they have natural endowments.    The implication of reduced population in economic term is on  entrepreneurship and economic development. This will limit the market  prospects for future products. Increased in the number of newborns alone  can stimulate the economy. They can create market for some set of goods  which interlink with the whole econ!
 omy. More importantly, they grow up  into productive work force. They marry, pay tax, defend the country  against external aggression and care for the elderly.    A subtle agenda to fo  ist on developing countries policies that aimed at  artificially controlling population will undermine both quantitative and  qualitative global development. Apart from making the world underachieve  its full potentials, it will create demographic problems. In China, there  are now 32 million more male than female under the age of 20, sex  selective abortion account for
 almost all the excess. China also has high  rate of abandonment and infanticide of girl child.    The beliefs that high population density breads poverty flew in the face  of facts. If population density causes poverty, Japan and Hong Kong should !
  be the poorest parts of the world today. These are areas with high&nbs!
 p; population density but highly prosperous despite limited landmass.    Population growth might cause short-term losses in term of cost but it is  bound to yield long-term gains. In other words, the long-term benefits of  high population far outweigh the short-term costs. This is because as said  by Beisner "over their lifetimes, people tend to produce more than they  consume," the un-consumed balances usually add up to increase the wealth  and value of the society. Little wonder production has consistently  outgrown population.    Practical examples exist in aged society. Many developed economies are at  present promoting population growth.
 This is noticeable in some  Organization for Economic Cooperation and   Development (OECD) countries  where policy makers have designed policies aim!
 ed at arresting the ageing  population. A perfect example is Australia. Since May 2004 Australia  government has announced a "Baby Bonus" policy, paying women an initial  A$3,000 per new child. The campaign since 2004 has been tagged: one baby  for your husband and one for your wife and one for the country.    The National Party has promised to double the baby bonus for stay-at-home  mothers if the coalition wins the federal election. In June, Australia  Senate passed a bill which will pay all parents who stay home the minimum  wage of $570 a week for 18 weeks. These measures are aimed at encouraging  families to have more children.    It is incontrovertible that human beings are the ultimate resource. Other&nb  sp; resources are useless without human innovation and exertion. An increase  human's number should
 therefore not be viewed as a disaster. The!
   population problem is a bogeyman. It prevents us from seeing human beings  as the ultimate resource. Rather proponents of high population encourage  people to think that people are a burden who are incapable of changing  their economic conditions without government help. However, the truth  remains that government is the big problem.    It is government policies which hinder wealth creation that are keeping  the people poor, under-achieved and less innovative. Whether a nation is  poor or rich depends on the availability of economic framework that  provides incentives for working hard and taking   risks. The key elements of  such framework are economic liberty, secured property rights and fair and  sensible rules of the market that are enforced equally.    Nigeria should avoid health and demographic implication associated with  arbitrary population control. Policy makers ought not see popul!
 ation  growth as a
 problem. Rather we should picture 150 million human brains  daily striving to improve their situations, solve economic problems and  above all create wealth. The projected 213 million people will be doing so  in 2050.    *Ayodele and Sotola are with the Initiative for Public Policy Analysis, an  independent public policy think-tank based in Lagos. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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