we are back to discussions concerning religion
where the line between religious belief and non-religious opinions is crossed.
to say anything about mohammed, his life, his
words, is to comment on religious belief. his
life and words are the basis for the religion itself.
to address his person in a non-religious fashion,
that is, to look for historical evidence outside
of religious documents, would be to open our
discussion to questions appropriately evaluated
on the basis of historical evidence.
i am always irritated when religious believers
insist that we address the latter as though the
former were historical truths to be taken for
granted. they are not. there is nothing in
religious credos to be taken for granted in terms
of historical evidence, or indeed in terms of ethics.
i am not against interpretation and discussions
concerning religious beliefs--just the mistaken
notion that they are automatically true for all.
this applies to polygamy, child marriage, or the existence of god.
thus, it is one thing to say, within the
strictures of islam, it is right or wrong for
mohammed to have married a child, or for that practice to continue today.
it is totally another thing to say that we can
support or condemn such practices, regardless of
what the religion supposed says.
and i say supposedly since i know that the four
schools of legal thought in islam are not always
in agreement with each other, especially on the
question of the necessity of the woman's consent for marriage.
ken
At 12:55 PM 11/6/2010, you wrote:
>Toyin,
>
>There are a number of books and articles that deal with marriage in
>Islam and the ideals of womanhood in Islam which it would do you well
>to read.
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatimah
>
>I would like to recommend that you read what Seyyid Hossein Nasr has
>to say on Marriage in Islam and also about the ideals of Muslim
>manhood and womanhood
>
>http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=sv&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENUK257&q=Seyyid+Hossein+Nasr+on+marriage
>
>This is the 21st century according to some almanacs and 5771 according
>to others. Tradition changes slowly even in Northern Nigeria, but not
>only in Northern Nigeria.
>
>"The culture of marriage and of child marriage" - is it as prevalent /
>widespread as you want to make out? If it is, it is not limited to
>Islam in particular I'm sure that you also find it among the Igbos
>as indeed we find it - and what was once Sutee among the Hindus of the
>last century. Here the Father of India Gandhiji the Great Soul/ Maha-
>atma makes it bare in his autobiography:
>
> http://www.kamat.com/database/books/gandhiautobio/child_marriage.htm
>
>Similarly, there was also the ideal of child marriage (as you call it)
>in the rabbinical days, both before and after Jesus, Mary and
>Joseph... and Jesus' brothers, James etc….
>
>However, your exclusive focus here is not on other parts of Nigeria,
>but on the mostly Islamic North of Nigeria where Sharia Law is the
>divine law and the guiding principle among the believers of al-Islam.
>
>The matter was discussed at length in the Nigerian Village Square:
>
>http://www.nigeriavillagesquare.com/articles/nafata-bamaguje/rationalizing-yerimas-paedophilia.html
>
> but for all their high-falutin talk & big grammar about Freedom of
>Speech and Democracy it seems that they did not take kindly to my
>adhering to the straight and narrow strictures of Islam's own straight
>and narrow path - to the extent that they refused to publish some of
>my replies exonerating Senator Yerima being within his legal limits
>and true to Islamic tradition, and so the rest of that discussion was
>conducted here:
>http://www.thelocal.se/blogs/corneliushamelberg/2010/05/26/admittedly-of-peripheral-interest-here-in-our-sweden/#comments
>
>You ask:
>
>"I also want to add that does the fact that Mohammed did something
>also mean
>that it is the right thing to do? Was Mohammed not a human being, and
>therefore capable of error? Does his being human and capable of error
>mean
>that he was not a great prophet?"
>
>I answer: the Prophet of Islam, salallahu alaihi wa salaam is seen as
>the role model par excellence of all Muslims and therefore everything
>he did -or almost everything he did is seen by Muslims, as the right
>thing to do. I say almost, because he was reprimanded in The Qur'an
>itself, for ignoring the queries of a blind man:
>
>http://www.quranenglish.com/tafheem_quran/080.htm
>
>On the other hand Toyin, he was the prophet of Islam and you are not:
>Altogether, he married 13 women - whereas the faithful are limited to
>a maximum of FOUR. In case you (little earthworm) think that's unfair,
>well, on that score you have the champion, King Solomon who had over
>800 wives. Toyin, it is permitted and you may continue to seethe with
>holy envy.
>
>Of course in some places, such as Gaza, donkey is still the favourite
>means of transportation, in other places; it is still the camel - in
>this space-age of science and technology. For others it's by plane,
>and even submarine. Times have changed.
>As a result of dialogue, a modernising reform-oriented dialogue with
>very traditional Islamism, you may perhaps get half way to what
>obtains today, in the Wild West.
>
>Absolute freedom of choice - is that not what you wish?
>
>Btw I was almost on a mission to fly to Iran, to marry and bring
>back someone's sister, a lady in distress. When I asked whether the
>marriage would be consummated accordingly to the Islamic rites in
>Iran, the husband of the older sister went into the kitchen and came
>back with a huge knife, which I though was to slice the orange he was
>holding in his hand. He came over to me, and placed the tip of the
>knife against the side of my stomach and told me that it was time for
>me to be going home —quietly…
>
>
>On 6 Nov, 09:09, toyin adepoju <toyin.adep...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > The culture of forced marriage and of child marriage in Northern Nigeria in
> > the name of Islamic law is recently highlighted by recent developments in
> > Northern Nigeria.In one of the cases the woman took her father to court for
> > marrying her out in her 20s,to a senator in
> his 50s,ignoring her interest in
> > marrying the man to whom she was engaged.
> >
> > What is at stake here is a very serious struggle in which Islam is being
> > used by various parties in ways that suit them.
> >
> > I am struck to read in Ayisha Osori's article "Poor Little Muslim Girls and
> > the Lawmakers from
> > Zamfara<http://www.thisdayonline.info/nview.php?id=186614>"that,according
> > to the Hadith,the sayings of Mohammed,forcing anyone into marriage is
> > against the teachings of Mohammed. Yet it is being done by Muslims because
> > they describe it as religiously sanctioned.
> >
> > I also want to add that does the fact that Mohammed did something also mean
> > that it is the right thing to do? Was Mohammed not a human being,and
> > therefore capable of error? Does his being human and capable of error mean
> > that he was not a great prophet?
> >
> > If as a human being he was capable of error does that not mean that his
> > opinions should not be binding on Moslems? Are his actions not open to
> > logical examination?Does such a logical examination imply that one is being
> > disrespectful of him?Does it not mean that
> one is relating to him as another
> > human being?
> >
> > In the light of these considerations,I would
> hold that Muhammad was wrong to
> > marry young girls.I would hold that he was indulging himself in the desire
> > of men and women to enjoy much younger
> partners and used his religious and
> > political power to satisfy that indulgence,a power most people do not have
> > and others pursue through their wealth.I hold that he has cheated those
> > children of their childhood.I hold that he gave destructive example to his
> > followers. The cases of vagina fistula described as recurrent in Northern
> > Nigeria from small girls having children at an age when their bodies cannot
> > cope can therefore be traced to what it is accurate to describe as a
> > selfish practice.
> >
> > Someone has argued that a father has a right to decide a husband for his
> > female child because he knows better on account of his age.Not necessarily
> > and not often true.The father is only human and can not share the mind of
> > his child.To insist that one human being no matter how wise can decide
> > infallibly for another is to make the person
> being decided for a robot or to
> > to impute godlike powers to the father,none of which is accurate.
> >
> > Some Moslems treat women as if they are not human.To insist on taking
> > strategic decisions for someone else,decisions that will shape their life
> > irrevocably,without giving them a chance to make up their own minds,is to
> > dehumanize them.
> >
> > I understand that in Saudi Arabia it is taken so far that women do not
> > drive cars. Pure male centred methods to maintain power.
> >
> > Islamic civilization needs to re-examine itself.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Toyin
>
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Kenneth W. Harrow
Distinguished Professor of English
Michigan State University
harrow@msu.edu
517 803-8839
fax 517 353 3755
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