Interestingly,the very points you raise as to why you think this debate is not adequate for an academic journal are the very reasons why I think it is.I am acquainted with though not familiar with the Platonic dialogues.I have read about the essays of Montaigne and Kierkegaard's Either/Or.I really enjoy the wonderful dialogue between Densu and Damfo in Armah's The Healers.I am acquainted with,though not in depth,with the dialogues of the Upanishads and the Zohar. I have read about a famous dialogue between Shiva and his wife Parvati.All these are classics of philosophy that operate in terms of dialogue closer to the kind demonstrated by the exploratory dialogical form of listserve than the conventional roundedness of the academic paper.
One could argue that learned debates such as occur on a listserve like this demonstrate the activity of discourse in the white hot heat of process,rather than the rounded completeness of a conventional essay and therefore are demonstrative of the reality of the processes involved in the development of knowledge in a manner vital and different from the conventional academic work as it has developed in the Western academy after Plato.
Why bother with references in such a context?What is more relevant in this context is the knowledge that the debaters have constituted as part of themselves,almost as inalienable from them as their blood,it is in fact central to their life blood understood as both physical and mental, as evident from the knife sharp intelligence and rapidity of thought and response,the passion, with which these positions are articulated.
These dialogues are confined to the group's archives after being brought to life, further restricting the scope of awareness of their existence and their prime value as sources of information and catalysts of knowledge.All those qualities you admire about the exchanges are evident in the compilation.The sequence of presentation takes care of that.Of course,even academic journals also exist both in print and online.The real distinction between an exchange on a listserve and a conventional print text is the structure. Sadly,since Plato,dialogical structure in written discourse is in Western civilization is confined to drama.Other civilizations did not approach the communication of knowledge this way. As evident from African,Asian,Arab and Persian cognitive histories,various verbal forms were pressed into service,from dialogues to narratives and essays.
I would think that such dialogues as evident on this group should be circulated on all kinds of media.It would help circulate to a broader audience than normally has access to it,intellectual discourse demonstrating the depth of knowledge debates on this group do.I dont know about others,but for me, I have the impression that to find discourse of this level of density of scholarly information and processing, one has either to go to an academic work,which are specialized texts read particularly by students and scholars,or to a work by a publisher like Penguin,who publishes, very selectively,scholarly writing in relatively cheap paper back editions, particularly in their classics series.Perhaps with better exposure to the book,,journals and magazines market I will have more examples.
Imagine this debate boiled down into the form of an academic essay,with all the apparatus of scholarship. To read it,one would need to enter into a particular mindset required for engaging with sophisticated ideas.The more one is familiar and comfortable with such ideas ,particularly in the specific discipline they come from,the easier it is to enter this mindset.Then imagine the whole ensemble packaged in the expensive formats academic works normally come in,costing more,at time significantly more, than the average novel and often not available in cheap second had versions.Along with the fact that the circulation scope of academic works is quite restricted, as far as I can see.
There is a need for bridges between academic knowledge and the average reader.Various publishers are working at this,including Oxford UP with their Very Short Introductions series,Cambridge UP and their Canto series,and the recent developments in popular science publishing. All these,however,are all operating under the assumption that the best way to communicate is through an essay organized in the conventional structure of introduction,body and conclusion. This assumption is not necessarily accurate.The dialogical form as is evident on listserves may contribute to filling this communicative gap most admirably.
It would be interesting to see the responses of academic ,magazine and newspaper editors,both print and online, to requests to publish the debate.
Thanks
Toyin
-- On 27 December 2010 02:41, kenneth harrow <harrow@msu.edu> wrote:
i don't mind what you do with it toyin,--
but as for an academic journal, i would not think it appropriate
first of all, i don't know about the others, but these responses are compose a l'improviste, quickly, too often without even prooooofreading, alas.
further, the answers are always particularly considered. i mean, i think about the parts where the bug bites, and turn to that. as a result, many key points are left unanswered. moses's last posting in which he said to me something like, surely you don't think sweden is socialist, was right. i don't. it is a reformist version of capitalism, liberal capitalism in fact; and my musings on the difference between what i think of as the ideals of capitalism and socialism are really quite undeveloped, to be sure. i gestured toward people i admired, like spivak and derrida, and politically especially mouffe and laclau. if it were to go to a journal, i would have to look up the key passages and make the points appropriately, not just vaguely suggest their broad outlines.
the media are different. i stopped because we were delving too much in what seemed a personal exchange, and i like the more rapid reflections, ones where many intervene, ones that perhaps demand less of the reader since i know, as my friends have told me, that length becomes an issue.
this list has had wonderful exchanges; but they are not book-like or academic. they represent a new exciting form of intellectual debate. we can't cast it back into the older paper mold.
lastly, there is incredible wit here, that somehow belongs on the screen. when ikhide wrote that terrible email about not caring about the benin mask, i could help admire the brilliance of his wit, never mind the disagreement, if disagreement there was.
it shines off the screen. what would a dull page of paper do to it?
and not just wit; i don't mean to belittle him. it was felt really strongly, passionately. read quickly, felt quickly; reread again. closed. next.
and then pius came in on ghana: who could ever duplicate the effects of the one following the others? if you organized it, you'd kill it.
so, go ahead.... but .....
ken
On 12/26/10 7:15 PM, toyin adepoju wrote:--I hope members in general and contributors to this debate in particular do not mind this effort of mine at a compilation of the debate.I was inspired by the sheer power of the arguments and their progression in contrast to and complementarity with each other.
The compilation can be neater than this but this is what I have been able to do for now.
I would have liked to add a list of contents and an index.
I would like any corrections pointed out so I effect them.
I wonder if members as a group or individually object to the following;
1. Distributing this compilation on other groups2. Placing it on the free document archive Scribd3. Blogging it4. Sending it to an academic journal to be considered for publication after it has been made neater by adequate paragraphing for all contributions,for example.
In all these instances,nothing will be changed in terms of addition to or deletion from content of contributions and the names of contributors in relation to their contributions.
Finally,members might want to consider the possibility of the posts on such a rich group as this being published on a yearly basis and the money going to charity.
Nothing can replace readily accessible record keeping. History is being made and knowledge constructed through these posts and debates.
ThanksToyin Adepoju
On 26 December 2010 03:10, Anunoby, Ogugua <AnunobyO@lincolnu.edu> wrote:
I did not mean to position China as an alternative to Africa's colonial and neo-imperialist exploiters.
My point was that today's Africa's leaders seem to be happy to "batter" Africa's precious resources (raw materials to "exploiters" called trade partners ) for measly sums and bribes just as some of their forebears exchanged their brothers and sisters for firearms and mirrors among others, to strangers from unknown lands. I would rather Africa's leaders trade places with the leaders of so called trade partner countries and do to their countries what they continue to do to African countries.
"Give me China--ANY TIME" may be okay with; that is not to say that China, in the long term, will serve Africa better than Europe and North America have done.
Those who know, know that true and enduring development is not inevitable but is the result of planned, purpose-driven and rational choice, and consonant constructive actions. China is a present day example.
oa
________________________________________
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com [usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of awori [awori.achoka@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, December 24, 2010 5:22 AM
To: USA Africa Dialogue SeriesSubject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Why is Africa in such a mess?
Ndugu (brother in Kiswahili), Anuno: I would rather a China, that
tells you what they wnat from you (your raw materials)--in exchange
for REAL investment in your infrastrucutre---which is arguably
Africa's biggest economic challenge---than pretence, do good attitude
of the West---guilefully used to comouflage their parasitic,
imperialistic intentions---in the guise of "bringing" democracy and
"good governance" to Africa.
It gets even more sinister, when the yardstick applied to Africa----
which gets Aid crumbs from the West--compared to purveyors of war and
human rights abuses such as Israel and the Gulf States.
Give me China--ANY TIME!
Asante!
On Dec 20, 6:48 am, "Anunoby, Ogugua" <Anuno...@lincolnu.edu> wrote:
> The evidence of history, human development, and progress is clear. Leaders build nations and make them great or not great. There is no informed person anywhere who would in good conscience, dispute the past and continuing terrible exploitation of Africa through slavery, colonialism, and neocolonialism. This is a settled subject for the most part.
> The concern now should be about what needs to be done to extricate Africa from the steel clutches of exploiter-countries, and the tangled webs of underdevelopment that her leaders seem not to be worried about. It is even not clear that African leaders are not helping to spin the webs. What is oftentimes forgotten is that the countries that are believed to have and continue to exploit Africa are always able to produce leaders that maintain the status quo in favor of the countries at the same time that African countries seem to be unable to produce leaders that will challenge and end the said cycle of exploitation.
> Right before our eyes and under our noses, China, India, and South Korea have joined the ranks of Africa's exploiter-countries. Where are Africa's leaders? Do they know that this is happening right now? Do they choose to benefit from the said exploitation in the advancement of their self interests at the expense of group interest?
> History can be real but this is no reason to allow history to successfully continue to take a perpetual mortgage on the present and the past. It seems to me that the case being made sometimes, is that the past, holding the present and the future hostage, is inevitable and unstoppable. History is a great teacher. It is little use however if its lessons are ignored or not/never learned.
>
> oa
> ________________________________________
> From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com [usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of kwame zulu shabazz [kwameshab...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2010 7:41 PM
> To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: RE: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Why is Africa in such a mess?
>
> Peace OA--African nations of been "independent" from roughly two generations. How does that work out to "many years"? Moreover, we have inherited borders and political systems that were mostly imposed.
>
> Re: Sudan--There is a lot more going on there than bad leadership. The Sudanese are divided by foreign religions. But they are also
>
> * fighting over increasingly scarce resources, particularly in Darfur (arable land).
> * The north-south skirmishes are being pushed along by Islamicists in Khartoum, by
> * nationalists in Khartoum who believe that securing oil and other natural resources by any means necessary from southern Sudan is in the national interests
> * Zionist who want to undermine Islamic regimes
> * old and new imperialists (e.g. US and China)
> * undisciplined rebel factions.
>
> Re: Asia--Yes, Singapore, Japan, South Korea would appear to be far ahead of many African nations. Most of these nations have not abandoned their Gods and Ancestors, although Mau certainly tried to banish them China. Also these nations was not forced to deal with imposed languages and borders. This is especially daunting in Africa given the stunning level of cultural diversity.
>
> Chinese elites still speak Mandarin and Cantonese. African elites often prefer English or French or Portuguese. Not only that but China's path towards "development" is wrecking havoc on the environment. And the level of poverty in some parts of India would embarrass many Africans.
>
> My sense of things is that we Africans have been colonized psychologically in ways that Asian nations were not. This is what Biko was attempting to address.
>
> Last and most importantly, I think the slave trades--transatlantic, saharan, red sea, indian ocean--have undermined African development profoundly. kzs
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "USA-Africa Dialogue Series" moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin.
> For current archives, visithttp://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
> For previous archives, visithttp://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
> To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue-
> unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "USA-Africa Dialogue Series" moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin.
For current archives, visit http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
For previous archives, visit http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue-
unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "USA-Africa Dialogue Series" moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin.
For current archives, visit http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
For previous archives, visit http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue-
unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "USA-Africa Dialogue Series" moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin.
For current archives, visit http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
For previous archives, visit http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue-
unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
-- kenneth w. harrow distinguished professor of english michigan state university department of english east lansing, mi 48824-1036 ph. 517 803 8839 harrow@msu.eduYou received this message because you are subscribed to the "USA-Africa Dialogue Series" moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin.
For current archives, visit http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
For previous archives, visit http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue-
unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "USA-Africa Dialogue Series" moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin.
For current archives, visit http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
For previous archives, visit http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue-
unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
No comments:
Post a Comment