Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Gbagbo captured

Moses, stop being melodramatic. Sister Gloria is simply talking  about human nature, not justifying the actions. I am quite sure if your relatives were raped, massacred, sodomized, dehumanized, etc., you would not be a saint either.


-----Original Message-----
From: Moses Ebe Ochonu
Sent: Apr 13, 2011 7:51 AM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Gbagbo captured

Oh, I see you point now, Gloria. Rapes, genocide, and burning of villages are justified if done in retaliation. Fantastic! In this illuminating analytical framework, MOST of the world's historical atrocities can be explained away and justified under the rubric of retaliation! Is retaliation ever a valid moral or legal defense against charges of war crimes? By the way, the New Forces committed all sorts of atrocities too in the period of the stalemated civil war, so it's not only Gbagbo and his people who committed crimes that may have elicited retaliation. We have to be even handed in assigning offense. Crimes were and are being committed by BOTH sides--more by Gbagbo's side because he had the instruments of political power. I usually underdogs in these epic confrontations but I will not excuse their crimes. Not once have you called for the investigation and punishment of the crimes committed by both sides in the latest confrontations. People of conscience on this list have done so. That speaks volumes about what you think about "retaliatory" crimes. As for arrogance and insults, look in the mirror. You fired the first salvo with your condescension and insulting insinuations, so don't put on a false toga of victimhood now.

On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 9:12 PM, Emeagwali, Gloria (History) <emeagwali@mail.ccsu.edu> wrote:

'Mr. Gbagbo's intransigence is the chief culprit for this but the events and crimes of the last few weeks, much

of it orchestrated by pro-Ouattara forces and entities, have deepened the fissures.'Ochonu

 

In case you did not get my point,  let me repeat it. The pro- Quattara forces have engaged in tit- for -tat retaliation, something which often happens

in these kinds of situations. This is the context of Rwanda, Burundi and a string of other atrocities.

No one condones it.

 

The best way to avoid it is to remove the cause of such crises as much as possible.

If you lose an election leave in dignity and don't stick around deploying death squads. That was my point.

 

Now if you want to distort my view feel free to do so. Some of us are now used to your insults and arrogance.

 

Gloria Emeagwali

esnips.com/web/emeagwali

 

 

From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com [mailto:usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Moses Ebe Ochonu
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 12:20 PM

To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Gbagbo captured

 

Jaye, we're saying the same thing, but I agree that if one is being legally or constitutionally puritanical, your way of saying it would be more accurate. So, to rephrase, Gbagbo scored the highest number of votes in the first round involving several contestants. Bedie, in fact, became the kingmaker in the second round, supporting Ouattara and directing his supporters to transfer their votes to him. Bottom line--and this has been my point--Gbagbo's support base was not and is still not a non-factor in this crisis and in the post-Gbagbo future of Ivory Coast. Let's not pretend that Ouattara enjoys overwhelming support in the country. He does not. The numbers attest to this. In fact the vitriol on the Gbagbo side before and after his capture is scary and one only hopes that with their man out of power and in detention they will mellow a bit and give Ouattara a chance to reunite and reconcile the country. But the fact is IC is a deeply divided country as of this moment. Mr. Gbagbo's intransigence is the chief culprit for this but the events and crimes of the last few weeks, much of it orchestrated by pro-Ouattara forces and entities, have deepened the fissures.

 

 

On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 9:55 AM, Jaye Gaskia <ogbegbe@yahoo.com> wrote:

By the way if he had won the first round of the election there wouldn't have been any need for the second round, and he would not have agreed to a second round. He did not win any round. He came out tops among a number of contestants, and not with enough votes to avoid a second round.

 

From: "Emeagwali, Gloria (History)" <emeagwali@mail.ccsu.edu>
To: "usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com" <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 2:48 AM

Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Gbagbo captured

'By the way, sometimes we forget that Gbagbo actually won the first round of the election quite handily .....'Ochonu


He  fraudulently stole a lot of votes from Bedie and that is one of the reasons for  the Ouattara- Bedie alliance.
You did not get the facts right.

By the way, are you now trying to change the  election rules retroactively? Your ideas may be helpful
in constitution amendment in the future but 53% is a win  according to the present constitution..

Assuming Gbagbo got 80% of the vote,  does that justify the genocide that he masterminded
and the attack on embassies, the UN staff etc. Does it justify  the death squads? What about the
six  unarmed women that were asasinated? What exactly is your point?
What are you defending?

Sure Ouattara has a big job ahead. Help him as best as you can with constructive ideas
rather than lamentations.

In any case the French acted on behalf of the UN.  ECOWAS couldn't/wouldn't do it.
Neither could Mali, Ghana, Burkina Faso, Guinea or Nigeria. In fact it took superior air power
to defeat Gbagbo.

Dr. Gloria Emeagwali
www.africahistory.net<http://www.africahistory.net/>
www.esnips.com/web/GloriaEmeagwali<http://www.esnips.com/web/GloriaEmeagwali>

________________________________
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com [usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Moses Ebe Ochonu [meochonu@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2011 2:59 PM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Gbagbo captured

Abdul, your math above seems fuzzy even to a numerophobe like me. Gbagbo got over 46 percent of the votes in the run-off, which was a straight contest between Gbagbo and Ouattara.  Agreed that 46 percent of the votes is not 46 percent of the population but 46 percent of those who voted in the run-off. But the same logic applies to Ouattara's number--over 53 percent. His 53 percent is his percentage of the total votes cast in the run-off, not a percentage of the population. Mr. Bedie's voters, who presumably voted overwhelmingly for Ouattara in the run-off, are already included in the 53 percent. If we cannot extrapolate Gbagbo's 46 percent of the vote into 46 percent of the population, we also cannot do so for Ouattara's 53 percent. Bottom line: this was a relatively close election---the run-off. Gbagbo got more than 46 percent of all the votes cast in the run-off. That's almost half. To the extent that Outtara's 53 percent also represents his share of the people who voted in the run-off and we agree that the respective run-off figures are a good gauge of each man's support base, we have an almost evenly divided country that Ouattara is going to have a hard time governing and reuniting. These divisions have clearly hardened in the last few weeks and is sure to be further solidified by the visuals of today's final showdown. I don't envy Ouattara his job under these circumstances. By the way, sometimes we forget that Gbagbo actually won the first round of the election quite handily and that, were it not for Mr. Bedie throwing his support behind Ouattara in the run-off, the latter would have clearly lost to Gbagbo.

On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 12:18 PM, Abdul Bangura <theai@earthlink.net<mailto:theai@earthlink.net>> wrote:
Point of correction, Moses: "46 percent of the population" did not vote for Gbagbo. He received 46 percent of the votes. That is not the same as 46 percent of the population. Mathematical estimates of the total population will put Ouattara's supporters at 60 plus percent of the population. Combined with Bedie's supporters, it is almost a bit over 76 percent.


----- Original Message -----
From: Moses Ebe Ochonu<mailto:meochonu@gmail.com>
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Sent: 4/11/2011 10:50:45 AM
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Gbagbo captured

Good for Gbagbo. This could have all ended peacefully several months ago. That said, am I the only one who fear that, despite Gbagbo's capture by French special forces (they did the job and handed Gbagbo over to Ouattara's forces to erase the odor of French neocolonialism and the negative PR from the capture) or because of it, Ivory Coast will not know peace and stability in the near future? Many of Gbagbo's supporters are still armed, are fuming with rage, and have vowed never to accept Ouattara as a legitimate president. The 46 percent of the population that voted for Gbagbo may have been radicalized by the perceived French-UN-New Forces military gang up on Gbagbo and by the war crimes committed by Ouattara's forces. I am not sure this was an ideal solution. The final French (and UN) assault on Gbagbo's forces (they basically won the war for Ouattara) has further complicated matters. Other rulers in French-colonized Africa will take notice and move towards curtailing or outright revoking the military pacts that allow the French to maintain a military presence and to intervene in their countries. In the long term, I am not sure that this template is a good instrument for democratic reclamation on the continent. Shooting your way to power with French and UN military support and firepower support and committing genocidal war crimes along the way even if you've won an election saddles you with a bitterly divided, infrastructure-impoverished, and tumultuous country. It also undermines your legitimacy. Ouattara's ascendance in the last few weeks have looked more like a coup than a democratic transition. The visuals and perceptions are not good and have helped to deepen the divisions and animosities in Ivorian society. Even as we insist rightly that African rulers who signed up for the winner-takes-all electoral model should abide by its rules when they lose, we should acknowledge the human, economic, and societal toll of this model. It is destroying many African countries. In the long run, therefore, we must rethink this model and move towards a more inclusive, consensus-building, and less zero-sum models of democracy.

On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 9:02 AM, Emeagwali, Gloria (History) <emeagwali@mail.ccsu.edu<mailto:emeagwali@mail.ccsu.edu>> wrote:
The Associated Press

Date: Monday Apr. 11, 2011 9:50 AM ET

ABIDJAN, Ivory Coast — The French Embassy in Ivory Coast says strongman Laurent Gbagbo has been captured by forces of democratically elected leader Alassane Ouattara. The move came after an attack by French forces earlier Monday.

An embassy official confirmed the detention by phone to an Associated Press reporter in Paris, speaking on condition of anonymity because of government policy.


Dr. Gloria Emeagwali
Prof. of History & African Studies
History Department
Central Connecticut State University
New Britain
CT 06050
www.africahistory.net<http://www.africahistory.net><http://www.africahistory.net/>
www.esnips.com/web/GloriaEmeagwali<http://www.esnips.com/web/GloriaEmeagwali><http://www.esnips.com/web/GloriaEmeagwali>

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