Dear All,
What happenned in douekue is indeed very terrible and can not and should not be tolerated. Those responsible for it need to be brought to account. That said, if we are to learn from this experience and perhaps prevent similar situations in the future, it is important to understand that douekue was caused by a series of events, and that political responsibility for it lies with those who acted to thwart the fragile mandate given by a people living through auspiscious period in their history.
There is no way that Gbagbo and the clique around him can escape responsibility for this event. And in addition to them, would be those actually responsible for carrying it out.
I am convinced that had Gbagbo been stopped, there would not have been any need for any military offensive to retake the whole country, and perhaps douekue would and could have been prevented.
The second issue here is that of attribution. And it is also important that we are very cautious so that we do not find ourselves manipulated by forces of retrogression who may be out to deliberately mislead and take advantage of the current situation.
Regards,
Jaye
From: kenneth harrow <harrow@msu.edu>
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 5, 2011 2:56 AM
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - A Report From Abidjan
dear cornelius
what happened in douekue is really horrible, and those responsible for it ought to be punished. it was a crime against humanity in the course of a burgeoning civil war.
when the fdr came down from the north in rwanda, there were also killings in the villages, which were reported, and some relatively weak efforts to assign responsibility and punish those responsible. on the other hand, the fdr's mission, aside from their original goal of overthrowing the government, became one of stopping a crime of genocide which was considerably worse.
perhaps one day, when the facts have been established, responsibility can be assigned and punishment meted out for douekue, though oh how rare it is for that to come from the victors. does anyone remember lieutenant calley, and the joke of the punishment he received for a similar, perhaps worse crime against humanity, which he committed in vietnam?
but i am writing not because of this killing, whose facts have yet to be established, but the fascist blog which posted its opinion about it, and especially which feeds an islamophobia that is breathtakingly open about its hatred of muslims.
we live in a bad political moment, one in which the fascisms of the 1930s and 1940s, once thought impossibly discredited, have made their return, at the very heart of midlothian. they are more than pernicious; they are extremely dangerous, and the crimes they are ready to excuse could cost millions of people their lives--as has already happened, in fact, in iraq and afghanistan.
we need to stand, somehow, collectively in condemnation of politics that permit and encourage the demonization of others, which is the prelude to eradication of people under the guise of the eradication of evil.
i am not asking for balance here, as if that could mean anything under these conditions of uneven distribution of power. i am asking for an anti-fascist front to recognize positions that we won't rationalize, or intellectually tolerate, and to stand against them.
ken
On 4/4/11 8:05 PM, Cornelius Hamelberg wrote:
> There are all kinds of reports coming out of Abidjan
>
> http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2011/04/muslims-slaughter-over-1000-on-ivory-coast-massacre.html
>
> And after the massacres somebody is going to reign as president over
> the defeated?
>
> On Apr 4, 9:12 pm, "Anunoby, Ogugua"<Anuno...@lincolnu.edu> wrote:
>> Gbagbo more than anyone else must be blamed for what has become of the Ivory Coast since last November's presidential elections. The U. N. midwifed the elections and has acknowledged and recognized Quattara, as the duly elected president. The international community (whatever that means)generally agrees with the U.N. The threat of military action by West African countries has hung over Gbagbo for months now. It is inevitable that this threat at some point will materialize if Gbagbo hangs on to power that many within and outside the Ivory coast believe that he has lost. Peace in the Ivory Coast may be worth dying for. Is Gbagbo worth dying for? The answer has to be a sure "no" especially because he (Gbogbo) does not seem to care about the cost to his country (life, limb, and treasure) of his hanging on to power.
>>
>> oa
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com [mailto:usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of kenneth harrow
>> Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 8:35 AM
>> To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - A Report From Abidjan
>>
>> how can we accept this without some clear indication of where all this
>> comes from? without such we are simply reading someone's propaganda. who
>> reported this? what is the reliability of those persons?
>> ken harrow
>>
>> On 4/3/11 7:25 AM, Yona Maro wrote:
>>> By Dr. Gary L. Busch 2/4/11
>>> Apr 3, 2011 - 10:59:25 AM
>>> Much of the news reports represent a wilful misrepresentation of the
>>> facts. The United Nations Mil-24 helicopters overflew Gbagbo-army
>>> positions in the West of the Ivory Coast and bombed and strafed a
>>> corridor into the cities for the rebel army. The point troops of this
>>> 'rebel army' were not Ivorians of the Force Nouvelles but Nigerian
>>> troops (mainly from the Mobile Police - the "Kill and Go") and
>>> Burkinabe Special Forces lent by President Campaore for the attack.
>>> These UN helicopters and a strong force of mercenaries entered cities
>>> like Daloa and Bondou and began killing large numbers of civilians as
>>> the pro-Gbagbo forces withdrew. Later, bands of Liberian adventurers
>>> (fighting for neither Ouattara nor Gbagbo) entered the cities to loot
>>> and plunder.
>>> Hundreds were killedat Daloa and Bondou by the invading forces. There
>>> were more than 800 civilians killed in Duekoue the next day by
>>> Ouattara's soldiers, even though there were over a thousand UN
>>> peacekeepers looking on.
>>> This was repeated in the drive for Abidjan where the UN has continued
>>> to use its helicopters with deadly effect and the UN Representative,
>>> Choi, has given the UN forces the right to 'shoot at will'. Seven
>>> pro-Gbagbo forces have been killed by the UN (mainly by Pakistani and
>>> Senegalese troops in the UNOCI) and scores of others have been shot at
>>> but no one yet knows the total. The French have moved out of their
>>> base in Port Bouet and are patrolling Abidjan streets, blocking off
>>> main roads and shooting at military and civilian targets. They say
>>> they are protecting foreigners who might be targets but it appears
>>> they are protecting them before they were endangered.
>>> The reason for this military initiative was twofold. April 1 is the
>>> day that the cocoa buyers (Noble and others) promised to pay Gbagbo
>>> for their cocoa stocks which were locked up in the Ivory Coast. They
>>> said they didn't care who was President, they wanted their cocoa. That
>>> made it imperative for Ouattara and the rebels to take the Port of San
>>> Pedro which is an important cocoa export port. The second reason is
>>> that April 1 was the day on which the Ivory Coast would have passed
>>> the deadline for paying its regular interest payment on its
>>> international debt which had been delayed by Gbagbo since his funds
>>> were cut off. To succeed in this the French and the UN decided on a
>>> covert (barely concealed) attack on the government of the Ivory Coast.
>>> Many of the soldiers loyal to Gbagbo were overwhelmed by the force and
>>> mechanisation of the attack and surrendered or took off their uniforms
>>> and fled. The battle now rages in Abidjan where the UN and the French
>>> continue their assault. However, the civilian population is
>>> reorganising itself and taking up arms. It remains to be seen if this
>>> UN and French attack will succeed in the face of a large and aroused
>>> population. The fat lady has not sung her final aria. Expect many
>>> civilian deaths. That is the UN way.
>>> Source:Ocnus.net 2011
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the
>>> "USA-Africa Dialogue Series" moderated by Toyin Falola, University of
>>> Texas at Austin.
>>> For current archives, visit
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
>>> For previous archives, visit
>>> http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
>>> To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue-
>>> unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>> --
>> kenneth w. harrow
>> distinguished professor of english
>> michigan state university
>> department of english
>> east lansing, mi 48824-1036
>> ph. 517 803 8839
>> har...@msu.edu
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "USA-Africa Dialogue Series" moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin.
>> For current archives, visithttp://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
>> For previous archives, visit http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
>> To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue- unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
-- kenneth w. harrow
distinguished professor of english
michigan state university
department of english
east lansing, mi 48824-1036
ph. 517 803 8839
harrow@msu.edu
-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the "USA-Africa Dialogue Series" moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin.
For current archives, visit http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
For previous archives, visit http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue- unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 5, 2011 2:56 AM
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - A Report From Abidjan
dear cornelius
what happened in douekue is really horrible, and those responsible for it ought to be punished. it was a crime against humanity in the course of a burgeoning civil war.
when the fdr came down from the north in rwanda, there were also killings in the villages, which were reported, and some relatively weak efforts to assign responsibility and punish those responsible. on the other hand, the fdr's mission, aside from their original goal of overthrowing the government, became one of stopping a crime of genocide which was considerably worse.
perhaps one day, when the facts have been established, responsibility can be assigned and punishment meted out for douekue, though oh how rare it is for that to come from the victors. does anyone remember lieutenant calley, and the joke of the punishment he received for a similar, perhaps worse crime against humanity, which he committed in vietnam?
but i am writing not because of this killing, whose facts have yet to be established, but the fascist blog which posted its opinion about it, and especially which feeds an islamophobia that is breathtakingly open about its hatred of muslims.
we live in a bad political moment, one in which the fascisms of the 1930s and 1940s, once thought impossibly discredited, have made their return, at the very heart of midlothian. they are more than pernicious; they are extremely dangerous, and the crimes they are ready to excuse could cost millions of people their lives--as has already happened, in fact, in iraq and afghanistan.
we need to stand, somehow, collectively in condemnation of politics that permit and encourage the demonization of others, which is the prelude to eradication of people under the guise of the eradication of evil.
i am not asking for balance here, as if that could mean anything under these conditions of uneven distribution of power. i am asking for an anti-fascist front to recognize positions that we won't rationalize, or intellectually tolerate, and to stand against them.
ken
On 4/4/11 8:05 PM, Cornelius Hamelberg wrote:
> There are all kinds of reports coming out of Abidjan
>
> http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2011/04/muslims-slaughter-over-1000-on-ivory-coast-massacre.html
>
> And after the massacres somebody is going to reign as president over
> the defeated?
>
> On Apr 4, 9:12 pm, "Anunoby, Ogugua"<Anuno...@lincolnu.edu> wrote:
>> Gbagbo more than anyone else must be blamed for what has become of the Ivory Coast since last November's presidential elections. The U. N. midwifed the elections and has acknowledged and recognized Quattara, as the duly elected president. The international community (whatever that means)generally agrees with the U.N. The threat of military action by West African countries has hung over Gbagbo for months now. It is inevitable that this threat at some point will materialize if Gbagbo hangs on to power that many within and outside the Ivory coast believe that he has lost. Peace in the Ivory Coast may be worth dying for. Is Gbagbo worth dying for? The answer has to be a sure "no" especially because he (Gbogbo) does not seem to care about the cost to his country (life, limb, and treasure) of his hanging on to power.
>>
>> oa
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com [mailto:usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of kenneth harrow
>> Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 8:35 AM
>> To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - A Report From Abidjan
>>
>> how can we accept this without some clear indication of where all this
>> comes from? without such we are simply reading someone's propaganda. who
>> reported this? what is the reliability of those persons?
>> ken harrow
>>
>> On 4/3/11 7:25 AM, Yona Maro wrote:
>>> By Dr. Gary L. Busch 2/4/11
>>> Apr 3, 2011 - 10:59:25 AM
>>> Much of the news reports represent a wilful misrepresentation of the
>>> facts. The United Nations Mil-24 helicopters overflew Gbagbo-army
>>> positions in the West of the Ivory Coast and bombed and strafed a
>>> corridor into the cities for the rebel army. The point troops of this
>>> 'rebel army' were not Ivorians of the Force Nouvelles but Nigerian
>>> troops (mainly from the Mobile Police - the "Kill and Go") and
>>> Burkinabe Special Forces lent by President Campaore for the attack.
>>> These UN helicopters and a strong force of mercenaries entered cities
>>> like Daloa and Bondou and began killing large numbers of civilians as
>>> the pro-Gbagbo forces withdrew. Later, bands of Liberian adventurers
>>> (fighting for neither Ouattara nor Gbagbo) entered the cities to loot
>>> and plunder.
>>> Hundreds were killedat Daloa and Bondou by the invading forces. There
>>> were more than 800 civilians killed in Duekoue the next day by
>>> Ouattara's soldiers, even though there were over a thousand UN
>>> peacekeepers looking on.
>>> This was repeated in the drive for Abidjan where the UN has continued
>>> to use its helicopters with deadly effect and the UN Representative,
>>> Choi, has given the UN forces the right to 'shoot at will'. Seven
>>> pro-Gbagbo forces have been killed by the UN (mainly by Pakistani and
>>> Senegalese troops in the UNOCI) and scores of others have been shot at
>>> but no one yet knows the total. The French have moved out of their
>>> base in Port Bouet and are patrolling Abidjan streets, blocking off
>>> main roads and shooting at military and civilian targets. They say
>>> they are protecting foreigners who might be targets but it appears
>>> they are protecting them before they were endangered.
>>> The reason for this military initiative was twofold. April 1 is the
>>> day that the cocoa buyers (Noble and others) promised to pay Gbagbo
>>> for their cocoa stocks which were locked up in the Ivory Coast. They
>>> said they didn't care who was President, they wanted their cocoa. That
>>> made it imperative for Ouattara and the rebels to take the Port of San
>>> Pedro which is an important cocoa export port. The second reason is
>>> that April 1 was the day on which the Ivory Coast would have passed
>>> the deadline for paying its regular interest payment on its
>>> international debt which had been delayed by Gbagbo since his funds
>>> were cut off. To succeed in this the French and the UN decided on a
>>> covert (barely concealed) attack on the government of the Ivory Coast.
>>> Many of the soldiers loyal to Gbagbo were overwhelmed by the force and
>>> mechanisation of the attack and surrendered or took off their uniforms
>>> and fled. The battle now rages in Abidjan where the UN and the French
>>> continue their assault. However, the civilian population is
>>> reorganising itself and taking up arms. It remains to be seen if this
>>> UN and French attack will succeed in the face of a large and aroused
>>> population. The fat lady has not sung her final aria. Expect many
>>> civilian deaths. That is the UN way.
>>> Source:Ocnus.net 2011
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the
>>> "USA-Africa Dialogue Series" moderated by Toyin Falola, University of
>>> Texas at Austin.
>>> For current archives, visit
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
>>> For previous archives, visit
>>> http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
>>> To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue-
>>> unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>> --
>> kenneth w. harrow
>> distinguished professor of english
>> michigan state university
>> department of english
>> east lansing, mi 48824-1036
>> ph. 517 803 8839
>> har...@msu.edu
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "USA-Africa Dialogue Series" moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin.
>> For current archives, visithttp://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
>> For previous archives, visit http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
>> To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue- unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
-- kenneth w. harrow
distinguished professor of english
michigan state university
department of english
east lansing, mi 48824-1036
ph. 517 803 8839
harrow@msu.edu
-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the "USA-Africa Dialogue Series" moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin.
For current archives, visit http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
For previous archives, visit http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue- unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
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