it is obvious from past postings that i share the views of jaye and toyin, who express the current dilemma eloquently.
there is one other notion i have, which i think comes from age (by which i don't mean "wisdom," but a longer view). the end of the ghadaffi regime, which i do support, will not determine libya's future. the people in libya will. the means of changing the regime, in the long run, will fade away as the people and subsequent regimes forge their own political relations.
look at america's great enemy, the country where we killed upwards of 2 million people, bombed them back to the stone age, reviled and destroyed to the best of our abilities (it is a sign of america's militantism that more than one country fits that description).
now we are major trading partners with--you guessed it, vietnam. could be japan, germany; etc.
and the horrific violence we visited on iraq in order to oust sadam hussein, at a time when he was not actually killing his people, that too will pass, along with the american invasion, and a reequilibrium of politics, no doubt shaped by shiite alliances, will assert themselves. and all those people will have died in bush's war, for what?
so why do i support the ouster of ghaddafi? it is not b/c nato originated it, not because it serves western interests, not even because i think an ideal of democracy is worth so many lives. it is because the libyan people themselves demonstrated, were repressed, and refused to lie down. like syria. egypt. tunisia, yemen, etc
the arab spring is a glorious moment, and we should be celebrating the people who have had the courage to risk their lives for their freedom from corrupt or repressive regimes.
if the people can be bought off, as in saudi arabia, that is a shame, but it is their own business. but when a people rise up, and we stand to the sidelines while the armed forces of an unjust govt shoot them, we become part of the conflict.
i don't know what anyone should be doing about syria. there are no simple one-size-fits-all rules, so the weighing and balancing, that jaye performs so well, has to be applied on a case by case basis.
ken
On 7/13/11 12:20 AM, Jaye Gaskia wrote:
--Dear Toyin, Peter & All,In point of fact as Nigerians we have fought off, and continue to fight off many a would be Gaddaffi, and i as a Nigerian, i am exuberantly proud of this legacy!I will not desire any form of individual/personalised or family dictatorship for any people, not the least Nigeria. In all of these i am in complete agreement with Toyin and others who have shared similar opinions on this matter.Fot the avoidance of doubt, the most sustainable and enduring form on governance when it is meeting the basic needs of the citizenry is one in which they have the choice, the ability, and the opportunity to chose their leaders and to renew or reject such mandates. The most glaring evidence that dictatorships, however benovalent are sustainable is the Libyan situation today!In my opinion, the most instructive measure of the failure of the Gadaffi revolutionary project is its inability to build a successor leadership, and the inability of the revolutionary regime to survive without its founding leader!And on Western imperialisms' intervention; it is true that the west is intervening for their own selfish reasons, reasons which go beyond the socalled humanitarian imperative: the impending humanitarian catastrophy as a result of Gadaffi's instransigence and the maniacal resolve to stay in power at the cost of hundreds of thousands dead in Benghazi, merely provided the convenient excuse to legitimise western intervention.But it is equally true, and in point of fact truer, that the people of Libya rose up against their home grown dictator peacefully, and were brutally repressed by their 'eternal leader'.In the face of this dynamic, the most important for the cause of human liberty, is the uprising and determination of the Libyan people. Imperialist interest and intervention is secondary, although it may considerably alter the outcome of the uprising.Who will the Libyan people feel more oblidged to thank and express their gratitude to? Imperialism which came to their 'aid' in their hour of need, or revolutionary critics, who condemn their uprising, delegitimise it because of imperialism's support, but do nothing in concrete terms to support their uprising?Whether the Libya without the Gadaffi regime will be a tool or stooge in the hands of the West, is going to be determined not only by the fact of the western intervention, but also by the presence or absence of a countervailing social force actively and visible mobilised and showing solidarity with the Libyan people and the Libyan uprising.And here it is not sufficient to simply sloganeer that 'NEITHER GADAFFI NOR IMPERIALIST INTERVENTION' and then do absolutely nothing concrete to support the uprising in its development!Warm Regards,Jaye Gaskia
From: toyin adepoju <toyin.adepoju@googlemail.com>
To: usaafricadialogue <USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com>; dandalin siyasa <dandalin-siyasa@yahoogroups.com>; naijapolitics@yahoogroups.com; "NigerianID@yahoogroups.com" <nigerianid@yahoogroups.com>; Edo-nationality <edo-nationality@yahoogroups.com>; ngpolitics@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2011 2:21 PM
Subject: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Fwd: Edo_Global. Nigerians and Nose Poking... ayo.city - Re:Amazing Differences BTW Nigeria and Libya-Not On Mainstream
I prefer the slow development of the present Nigerian political space. I dont want a Gaddafi , a Fidel Castro or a neo-People's Republic of China leader who decides that only he, his family and cronies have a right to national leadership even if such a dictator turns Nigeria into an economic paradise. 2. The Libyan rebels began with peaceful protests. It was when Gaddafi began to slaughter them that they fought back 3. The West may have done nothing for Libya but they are doing something now in helping to remove a dictator who prefers to kill his own people than come to an agreement with those of them who say its time he let someone else rule after being in power for 42 years. 4.Nigeria is much better off than Libya beceause Nigerians are undergoing a democratic process. thanks toyin
Toyin, do you know any of these rebels? Did Ghadafi wake up one morning and began bombing and shooting Libyans? When a people take up arms against their government and begin destroying public property for whatever reasons, what do you expect government to do, fold its arms? Time for Ghadafi to go, that is alright; but who are David Cameron and Sokozy to tell Ghadafi when to go or even to leave his country. What has Cameron and Sakozy ever did for Libyans? Is it road they gave Libyans? Water? Health institutions? Schools? Scholarships? Houses? Now, look at your own Nigeria for all of its 50 years. Would you not desire a Ghaddafi who invested public monies for public good for Nigeria? Nigerians do know to poke nose at others' homes, when theirs is nothing to write home about.
--- On Tue, 7/12/11, toyin adepoju <toyin.adepoju@googlemail.com> wrote:
From: toyin adepoju <toyin.adepoju@googlemail.com>
Subject: [NaijaPolitics] Re: ayo.city - Re:Amazing Differences BTW Nigeria and Libya-Not On Mainstream
To: "usaafricadialogue" <USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com>, "dandalin siyasa" <dandalin-siyasa@yahoogroups.com>, naijapolitics@yahoogroups.com, "NigerianID@yahoogroups.com" <nigerianid@yahoogroups.com>, "Edo-nationality" <edo-nationality@yahoogroups.com>, "Edo Global" <Edo_Global@yahoogroups.com>, ngpolitics@googlegroups.com
Date: Tuesday, July 12, 2011, 7:01 AM
Get real.
The whole problem started bcs Gaddafi was murdering Libyans who protested against him, protests similar to those being done elsewhere in the Arab world.
All that is written here might be real but it does not replace representative democracy, even when it is flawed.As someone in Saudi Arabia put it when their government bought off the threat of protests with cash gifts, the issue is about collective sovereignty of the citizen not about welfare paternalism, which is part of the Libyan and the Saudi rulership mentality.
The sun has set for Gaddafi's dictatorship and time is ticking steadily for that of others in the Arab world.
Yes. The West is often duplicitous. Yes, if they dont hope to gain from this and turn a profit, too, I would be shocked and revise my understanding of international politics. But no one else is going to make sure Gaddafi does not just swallow the dissenting Libyans.
The challenge is that of orchestrating maximum gain for the self sacrificing Libyans, doing the hitherto unthinkable by fighting a brutal and uncompromising dictator, and the West investing so much material, human and political capital in this initiative.
Knowing the West does not like him, he was wise enough to slaughter his own people instead of approaching the issue with circumspection.
The lizard that knows that its enemies are prowling would be careful about the kind of noise it makes.
The world is changing.
Gaddafi is still in the past. Mubarak and Ben Ali respected the verdict of the unstoppable will of the people. The Syrian and Saudi leaders are only living on borrowed time.
Cuba seems to remain socially and economically moribund because one revolutionary insists that he and his family must rule forever and that the people cannot be allowed to elect their own leaders. China will have to take stock of its own militarized paternalism, in which a closed group, unelected by anyone, determines the fate of the country. When the present generation have had their fill of so called material well being China is being lauded for, they might look inward and see that they are really prisoners in a cage, a pleasant cage, but a cage nevertheless.
Democracy, particularly as currently practiced everywhere, is flawed, but I am yet to observe a superior method of government.
thanks
toyin
On 12 July 2011 11:43, toyin adepoju <toyin.adepoju@googlemail.com> wrote:From: new post <timkola1@yahoo.com> Date: 12 July 2011 11:27 Subject: ayo.city - Re:Amazing Differences BTW Nigeria and Libya-Not On Mainstream To: ngpolitics@googlegroups.com This message was sent using [Quick Reply] to protect your email address From: ayo.city Some other facts (that mainstream media will never disclose) about Gaddafi and Libya Loans to Libyan citizens are given with NO interest. Students would get paid the average salary for the profession they are studying for. If you are unable to get employment the state would pay the full salary as if you were employed until you find employment. When you get married the couple gets an apartment or house for free from the Government. You could go to college anywhere in the world. The state pays 2,500 euros plus accommodation and car allowance. The cars are sold at factory cost. Libya does not owe money, (not a cent) to anyone. No creditors. Free education and health care for all citizens. 25 of the population with a university degree. No beggars on the streets and nobody is homeless (until the recent bombing). Bread costs only $0.15 per loaf. No wonder the US and other capitalist countries do not like Libya. Gaddafi would not consent to taking loans from IMF or World Bank at high interest rates. In other words Libya was INDEPENDENT That is the real reason for the war in Libya He may be a dictator, but that isnot the US problem. Also Gaddafi called on all Oil producing countries NOT to accept payment for oil in USD or Euros. He recommended that oil get paid for in GOLD and that would have bankrupted just about every Western Country as most of them do not have gold reserves to match the rate at which they print their useless currencies. Remember the last time someone had the NERVE to make a similar statement was when Saddam Hoosein advised all Opec countries not to accept payment for oil in US Dollars. Well, we all know what happened to him . Yes, they HUNG HIM....click here to read more on this topic: http://ngmix.net/forum/viewforum.php?f=2 please use the Quick Reply button for all replies: [Quick Reply] Other Recent Topics: --- Even Muslims Are Afraid Of Violent Muslims-Wont Go To Mosque --- Clear Evidence Nigerian Intelligence HQ Is A Joke-Watc Video --- Is There Nobody To Lead A Big Revolution In This Country? --- Photo Of Nigerias First Suicide Bomber: Mohammed Manga --- I AM A BILLIONAIRE AND THERE IS NOTHING ANYONE CAN DO ABOUT --- Bankole vs EFCC-Is EFCC Serious Or Is This Another Ghost Ch --
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