Dear Kenneth,
Shabbat Shalom!
Israel, the Almighty's gift to His people and to mankind is the heart
and soul of Jewish existence.
Approximately six million Jews live in Israel today.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/jewpop.html
http://www.google.com/search?q=the+land+of+israel&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&lr=lang_en
Do you not say,
"If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning.
If I do not remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my
mouth; if I prefer not Jerusalem above my chief joy."
?
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16358
I am regularly updated almost on a weekly basis by friends who come
and go, about the true state of affairs in the Holy Land – even about
Palestinian suffering – updated by Palestinians and friends of
Palestinians.
Some of your kind words, kindly intended, turn out to be not so kind.
Your insistence that you "do not believe the survival of jews depends
on the existence of israel" must sound like music to Ah-mad-inejad's
ears and contribute to his justification in wanting to (Heaven forbid)
"wipe out " Israel from earthly existence.
You keep on insisting that you are "a jew who had once
considered israel necessary to the survival of the jewish people, but
no
longer does."
Conversely, do you sincerely believe that the survival of the Arabs
depends on their sovereignty over Judea and Samaria, the so called "
West Bank" ? Conversely, you could argue that you do not believe that
the existence of Iran is necessary for the survival of the Iranian
people. Or the existence of Saudi Arabia or Mecca is not necessary for
the survival of the Saudi Arabians or of Islam.
The Arabs already have twenty two ( 22) states and some of them are
hell-bent on erecting their twenty-third ( 23rd) state on the remains
of Israel – if they could have their way, and you think that that's
OK? Shame on such wishful thinking!
Fortunately for all of us, you are still an ethical Jew, perhaps
suffering from an excess of Chesed which can be dangerous ....but who
am I to castigate King Saul in this late day and age, for his excess
of lovingkindnesss and a deficit in necessary hardness – against the
enemy - when for Israel today it is still a question of "stand firm
or you're gonna feed worm"?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6fvex8kr58
Sure Pikuach Nefesh is an ethical and pragmatic Jewish value to be
adhered to - not that it should jeopardise the nation's future.
And what do you propose then, that the Temple be rebuilt on Ground
Zero, in New York City?
In my humble opinion, no Jew or Non- Jew should play with Israel's
existence and what is in the air is the problem of defensible
borders - the very existence of the state of Israel is at stake and
it is painful to hear anyone – even Ahmadinejad - joking about
Israel's existence, survival, future.
http://www.google.com/search?q=Israel+and+defensible+borders&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&lr=lang_en
Please pay more attention to the problem of defensible borders and
please keep in mind that according to the Chafetz Chayim, out of the
613 mitvoth, only 77 positive mitzvoth and 194 negative mitzvoth can
be observed outside of Israel today...
On Jul 22, 10:27 pm, kenneth harrow <har...@msu.edu> wrote:
> dear cornelius, and others,
> there is a lot here, too much to respond in detail, which is beyond my
> capacities and knowledge. i know something about israel, not as much as
> real experts. but i have had a stake in this knowledge, whatever that
> counts for.
> i do not believe the survival of jews depends on the existence of
> israel, as i did believe when i was younger. i certainly do not believe
> whatever israeli politicians decide is good is necessarily good.
> dear cornelius, i don't know quite how to make this soft, but the
> conditions of the occupation in gaza are unacceptable. you can find
> rightwing israeli or american jews who deny that; that doesn't change
> anything.
> are some palestinains fighting back, and saying hateful things about
> jews? of course. does that mean hamas and fatah won't make peace, or
> even that they are the same? i do not believe so.
> this is the bottom line for me, and it is a line that separates me from
> pius, partly, in viewing the question of jewish rights to a presence in
> israel. much of this slight historical knowledge comes from tom segev's
> One Palestine Complete.
> the jews and arabs came to occupy two more or less divided camps during
> the period of zionist development and immigration in the first half of
> the 20th c. there were many on both sides willing to live together
> peacefully. there were also, on both sides, hardlines wishing to drive
> the other out.
> by the end of this period, around the time of world war 2, there were
> about an equal number of jews and arabs, about half a million each,
> whereas at the turn of the century there were about 10% jews.
> the jews who immigrated were seeking a decent life outside a europe that
> was antisemitic.
> who on this list would oppose that? is there ever a reason to oppose
> people migrating to other lands? to conquer, that is not the same.
> jewish zionist migration, look into it, it was people who were being
> persecuted in places like russia where my uncle's mother had her head
> cut off by kazacks during pograms. should his family not have migrated
> to israel, or later to the u.s.? pius cites indigenous peoples; but what
> of the bantu migrations? or any other? conquest is not justified; but
> migration is, and i must state i oppose limits to migrations anywhere.
> the brits didn't want the balance between arabs and jews unsettled, so
> tried to slow down jewish immigration. jews had no where to go during
> world war two, were turned back by america and most of the rest of the
> world. to me, opposing immigration is fascist. now it is called
> neofascist, national front, or sarah palin, michelle bachman; same thing.
>
> then the war came: israel survived, but the palestinians lost the west
> bank to jordan, and egypt took the sinai. that was reversed in 67.
> since they\n, occupation, oppression, hatred.
> i spoke this last year to a young israeli friend, and this is what he
> told me. take it for what it is worth. as he grew up, there was conflict
> between palestinians and israelis; but not racism. now there are no more
> palestinian arabs working in israel, and the racism of israelis has
> taken hold against arabs. the possibility of a peace movement or a
> political party on the left having a voice is gone as people are
> convinced that security has to trump all other concerns, and that
> security comes from military power.
> it is the very worst time in israeli politics, with peace yielding to
> domination, and hatred supplanting notions of living together. like the
> right wing in the globalnorth.
> i don't know what people living in the misery of gaza are supposed to
> feel towards israelis under these conditions.
> i do not understand, cornelius, you who seek ways to avoid war if
> possible, and believe that people can establish dialogue and resolve
> differences, can accept the demonization of palestinians as the israeli
> right has established. when i speak to my palestinian student whose home
> is threatened in east jerusalem, i can only lament at the
> unreasonableness of the israeli political right, the jewish american
> right, that seems totally indifferent to palestinians.
> cornelius, we don't really do that to others, do we, believe they are
> all fanatical maniacs? when muslims are treated thus by westerners, you
> are the most eloquent defender of islam. what happened here? being
> jewish is not a monolithic position that requires fidelity to a state at
> all costs. i do not understand you. if you speak of the aggressive
> rhetoric of hamas, fatah, and hizbollah, why do you not speak of the
> aggressive rhetoric of kahane or likud, its "facts on the ground," with
> now half a million settlers taking over palestinians meager lands. why
> don't you care about that? why do you draw a line at palestinians for
> your understanding?
> hashem has more than one face. miriam's song is only one side.
> ken
>
> On 7/22/11 5:50 PM, Cornelius Hamelberg wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Shalom,
>
> > I should like to point out that I especially like the 12th Blessing of
> > the Amidah:
>
> > And for the slanderers, let there be no hope;
> > and may all wickedness perish in an instant;
> > and may all Your enemies be cut down speedily.
> > The wanton sinners May You speedily uproot, smash, cast down and
> > humble -
> > speedily in our days.
> > Blessed are You Hashem, Who breaks enemies and humbles wanton
> > sinners.
>
> > I realise that we are dealing with human nature, not with the nature
> > of angels and that there are hackers, hack writers and journalists,
> > even human refuse, being bankrolled by moneyed jihadists, to make
> > vicious propaganda against the Jewish State. We know that some of
> > them are prepared to even sell their own grandmothers for money.
>
> > And there are those who reel off a series of insults, such as Israel
> > is in fact founded on racism at its core , other such blasphemies,
> > distortions, false charges, all of which we are expected to accept as
> > their own sacred contribution to objective truth and beyond dispute -
> > and - on top of all that, when they say that they don't want to
> > debate such controversial issues, that's a very tall order indeed.
>
> > I am often torn between these two poles, the tension that exists
> > between
> > on the one hand, after the Amidah the prayer which begins
>
> > My God,
> > keep my tongue from evil and my lips from speaking guile.
> > May my soul be silent to them that curse me
> > and may my soul be as the dust to everyone.....
>
> > and the feeling that for me to be a doormat or as quiet as St.
> > Nicholas of Cusa at such a time
> > would be a crime.
>
> > Yes indeed, Kenneth Harrow loves justice, but I don't think that he is
> > being fair, the way he represents the dilemmas, without even as much
> > as mentioning the terrorists who belong to the Paradise Cult of the
> > Suicide Bombers and all the death and destruction they have visited
> > upon innocent Israelis and their properties :
> >http://www.google.com/search?q=Palestinian+Terrorists&ie=utf-8&oe=utf...
>
> > Rabbi Meir Kahane states in his excellent Our Challenge published
> > in 1974 (page 128):
>
> > The right of the state of Israel to exist is dependent upon the right
> > of the Jew to a land of Israel
> > The state can do nothing in denigration of the imperatives of the
> > land. And if the decree of the land of Israel through the Jewish
> > heritage is that every Jew has a right to enter and live there, then
> > no Knesset and no state can do anything to contradict that edict.
>
> > Here we have one more example of the corruption of the true meaning of
> > the State of Israel vis-a-vis the Jewish people. Instead of an
> > affirmation of the Jewish people as an indivisible nation with each
> > and every Jew entitled to the same rights from the Jewish state , we
> > find that there are indeed Jews and Israelis . The criminal born
> > in Tel Aviv is not deported from Israel, but the one who tries to
> > enter the land from Chicago is. A 72-year old foreign criminal
> > becomes a danger to the state , but a native born communist whose
> > allegiance is to Moscow is not. A foreign Jew who is deemed
> > undesirable cannot live in the land of Israel but hundreds of
> > thousands of Arabs can.
>
> >http://www.google.com/search?q=Meir+Kahane+%3A+Our+Challenge%2C&ie=ut...
>
> > I really like most of what Rabbi Kahane has said:
>
> >http://www.google.com/search?q=+++Rabbi+Meir+Kahane+%3A+Writings&ie=u...
>
> > For many of us, honesty is the best policy: therefore I would like to
> > have more clarity about these doubtful matters:
>
> > You say that you once considered israel necessary to the survival of
> > the jewish people .The fact of the matter is that the enemies of
> > Israel not least of all Iran, continue to threaten Israel, and this
> > means that the survival of the Jewish people of Israel is at stake.
> > Israel need only lose one war, and then most of the anti-Semites, the
> > anti-Zionists and the self-hating Jews who are currently yapping about
> > occupied territories would be yapping about occupied territories no
> > more and be happy that they had nothing more to yappy about.
>
> > And even more seriously, the fact of the matter is that the Jewish
> > Faith with all 613 Mitzvoth can only be fully practised in the Land of
> > Israel in which we all pray that the Beit Hamikdash will be built in
> > the Holy City of Jerusalem, soon, in our days.
>
> > So, cheer up everybody, all will be well in the end:
>
> >http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15933/jewish/Chapter-2.htm
>
> > You say that, many would agree that israel lost its credibility when
> > it turned, since
> > 67, into an occupier who abused palestinians.
>
> > Here's the nitty-gritty about Judea and Samaria which in more recent
> > history, some call The West Bank - all of which you know better than
> > anyone, but not everyone knows:
>
> >http://www.factsandlogic.org/ad_101.html
>
> >http://www.factsandlogic.org/ad_102.html
>
> >http://www.factsandlogic.org/ad_06.html
>
> ...
>
> read more »
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