Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: You are missing the Point on Nigeria - rejects regime offer to talk

And not just about whether any country has the right to bomb other countries, or about whether any ruler has the right to slaugther his own people, but also about whether any people have a right to change their leader, even if such a leader were to be a saint?

In Egypt prior to and in the aftermath of the revolution, there were isolated incidences of mob targetting of minority Christians; was this anything other than the manifestation of some of the complex realities predating the revolution, and which the revolution was gropping to deal with?

Were there paid soldiers of fortune in the service of the Gadaffi dictatorship? Do they come from different nationality backgrounds, including Nigeria and yes ofcourse Tunisia, as well as others? Would this reality trigger the anger of some in the revolution? It is to be expected that it will. Is it proven that it is a widespread policy of the uprising to brutalise such people? Nothing that we know of leads us to believ that it is a standing principle of the uprising. Were some of these mercenaries treated qualitatively different as a matter of routine and policy from other pro-Gadaffi loyalists including Libyan loyalists?

The humdreds of thousands of ordinary Libyans who have defied a brutal dictator and dared to fight and unseat him, are they superhumans, saints, refined, without the prejudices of other human beings? Is it not in the process of the revolution, that this refinement is best assured of taking place? Otherwise why the revolution in the first place if people enter the revolution, and pass through it unchanged?

Are we to suppose that everytime NATO or a military power intervenes/moves to interven in any popular upheaval where a people are trying to unseat their rulers; that such a people should then cease their uprising and join their hated ruler to oppose imperialism?

Reality is infintely more complex than this simple reductions, and revolutionary reality even more so.

Jaye Gaskia

From: kenneth harrow <harrow@msu.edu>
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: You are missing the Point on Nigeria - rejects regime offer to talk

oh, i thought it was also about, does any ruler in the world have the right to slaughter his own people? why do you ignore that question?
not slavery, not colonialism, but good old brutal authoritarian dictatorship
ken

On 8/31/11 9:29 AM, MsJoe21St@aol.com wrote:

 

You are missing the point and reducing it to political expediencies and horse trading. IT IS ABOUT PRINCIPLE. Do Western nations have the right to bomb any African country and compel regime change? How do they choose and pick their victims?

 

That is the salient point, not which monkey ate whose banana - as you have watered it down.

 

Is this not the same mental disposition that rationalized slavery and colonialism? In this day and age, can Africans not master their own evolutions? Why is there no hue and cry over Egypt and Tunisia? It debunks your anchor on loving dictators. Your simplistic views, couched on politicking,  are far removed from those who are sticking to the principles of it - nothing more, nothing less.

 

Now that Nigerians are massacred by the same regime that the Nigerian government dashed to embrace, what has the necessity of humanity - if not fairness, got to do with the headquarters of AU today or tomorrow? Can you imagine any self-respecting president and independent government playing the expedient FOOL  INCARNATE like this?  Where is the moral spine  - even if his politics feeds on opportunistic windfalls?

 

MsJoe

 

In a message dated 8/31/2011 1:38:24 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, generaltek@usa.net writes:

Dear All,
Can we stop being sentimental and address the facts !!!
I will want everyone who does not understand why Jonathan/Nigeria recognized the New Libyan Govt. to have a rethink and get wiser. Gaddafi had been trying to subvert Nigeria because Nigeria is the only country strong enough to refuse his attempts to bribe AU members into allowing him to move AU headquarters to Tripoli and thereafter become the life President of AU.  African Countries supporting Gaddafi are led by leaders who hate democracy and want to stay-tight in office. These "African Heads of State" hate Nigeria and are jealous of the strong position Nigeria occupies in Africa. The are jealous of Nigeria's Manpower, Economic and Numerical strength/endowment. So there has always been this political gang-up against Nigeria by countries like SA, Zimbabwe, Ghana etc who will jump at the slightest excuse to insult and attack Nigeria. All of a sudden they are biting the finger that fed them, especially South Africa. What gave South Africa and Ghana the guts to attack Nigeria ? How much money did Gaddafi throw at them ?  Have you guys considered how many lives Gaddafi wasted just to stay in office all these years. How can some body who claims to be the President of a nation direct Tanks, Rockets and missiles at his people just because the told him that he has over stayed in office (42years)?
Gaddafi is a Maniac and must not be allowed to mislead other African nations and turn them into
Fellow Sit-tight Presidents. Of course one can understand why the President of South Africa will always support Gaddafi - they are birds of the same feather : they are paedophiles and known to have  constantly raped girls young enough to be their daughters. President Zuma raped a HIV/AIDS victim and the South African political class exonerated him from blame and that was the day South Africa began sliding away from the Truth. So with a Maniac like Zuma calling the shots in SA , what does one expect. Do not be surprised that is South Africa were to face a Revolution, Zuma will direct his Tanks, Rockets, Missiles and Bullets  on innocent civilians for demonstrating or complaining .
SCA
------Original Message------
From: Abraham Madu
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Subject: [NIgerianWorldForum] NATO   rejects regime offer to talk
Sent: Aug 28, 2011 2:40 PM

  From: Abraham Madu <abraham.madu@yahoo.com> To: "NIgerianWorldForum@yahoogroups.com" <NIgerianWorldForum@yahoogroups.com>; "NIgerianWorldForum@yahoogroups.com" <NIgerianWorldForum@yahoogroups.com>; "NaijaObserver@yahoogroups.com" <NaijaObserver@yahoogroups.com>; "IgboEvents@yahoogroups.com" <IgboEvents@yahoogroups.com>; "MsJoe21St@aol.com" <MsJoe21St@aol.com>; "blackstar1000@ameritech.net" <blackstar1000@ameritech.net> Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 8:39 AM Subject: [IgboEvents:Live] NATO rebels reject regime offer to talk   From: Abraham Madu <abraham.madu@yahoo.com> To: "NIgerianWorldForum@yahoogroups.com" <NIgerianWorldForum@yahoogroups.com>; "IgboEvents@yahoogroups.com" <IgboEvents@yahoogroups.com>; "NaijaObserver@yahoogroups.com" <NaijaObserver@yahoogroups.com>; "blackstar1000@ameritech.net" <blackstar1000@ameritech.net>; "MsJoe21St@aol.com" <MsJoe21St@aol.com>; Marilyn Jones <Mandisa@panafricanbeat.com>; "jamestown1619@yahoo.com" <jamestown1619@yahoo.com>; Johnson Anyadike <anyadike@slb.com>; "jahrdon@yahoo.com" <jahrdon@yahoo.com> Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 8:37 AM Subject: [NIgerianWorldForum] Libya rebels reject regime offer to talk   . "Earlier this week, eight injured men were abandoned in a bombed out fire house in the Abu Salim neighborhood, some pleading for water, but residents and rebels made no effort to help them." by AP Associated Press. NATO bombed this particular fire house in the Abu Salim neighborhood,an act of barbarism! A.A.Madu From: "MsJoe21St@aol.com" <MsJoe21St@aol.com> To: NIgerianWorldForum@yahoogroups.com; nigerianworldforum@yahoogroups.com; USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com; ourworldview@yahoogroups.com; naijapolitics@yahoogroups.com; africa-oped@yahoogroups.com Cc: Camnetwork@yahoogroups.com; Mwananchi@yahoogroups.com; zimsite@yahoogroups.com; unionews@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 8:27 AM Subject: Re: [NIgerianWorldForum] Libya rebels reject regime offer to talk   You must be in another zone of delusion to still grant a fig of credibility to the Western corporate media, Al Jazeera and rebel ruse after their numerous fake news and calculated propaganda have been exposed. If there is a bounty on Gaddafi's head and with all the Western intelligence and now forces on the ground and shooting from roof tops, why can't they capture him? Why are they still bombing and destroying Libya if the man has been defeated? As soon as NATO-led rebels think they are not making waves with Western powers, they create a self serving diversion.Fact are: dead bodies are decomposing, Africans are executed, a hospital is closed, doctors and nurses fled. If the place is liberated, why all the debauchery? Is this humane, let alone democracy?    These are people who staged a scene of Tripoli in Qatar and claimed people were dancing in Tripoli. Even the ICC judged confirmed that Gaddafi's sons were captured, something that never happened. According the rebels, one of his sons, Khamis have been killed - twice. No explanation how ghosts walk around.   MsJoe     In a message dated 8/28/2011 8:53:44 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, davidwest62@yahoo.com writes: Libya rebels reject regime offer to talk By BEN HUBBARD - Associated Press,KARIN LAUB - Associated Press | AP –  44 mins ago tweet2 Share Email Print RELATED CONTENT Mahmoud Jibril, the head of Libya's rebel National Transitional Council, sits with … Libyan rebels are seen on the road out of Misrata, 118 miles (190 kilometers) from … TRIPOLI, Libya (AP) — Libyan rebels on Sunday rejected an offer by Moammar Gadhafi to negotiate and said they have captured the eastern town of Bin Jawwad, forcing regime loyalists to flee after days of fighting. The opposition fighters have threatened to advance westward on the coastal road toward Gadhafi's hometown of Sirte if tribal leaders there don't agree to surrender peacefully. The fighting in the east comes as the rebels consolidated their hold on the capital, Tripoli, some 350 miles (560 kilometers) to the west of Bin Jawwad. Mohammed al-Rajali, a spokesman for the rebels on the eastern frontlines, said they captured Bin Jawwad at about 10 p.m. Saturday and deployed forces in the city after days of fighting. He said Gadhafi's forces fled westward and were likely to join regime forces in Sirte, the headquarters of Gadhafi's tribe and his last major bastion of support. The opposition has threatened to assault the city, which has been heavily targeted by NATO airstrikes, if tribal leaders there refuse a peaceful surrender. With Gadhafi on the run, his spokesman Moussa Ibrahim called The Associated Press Saturday to say Gadhafi is still in Libya and offering to have his son, al-Saadi, lead talks with the rebels on forming a transitional government. In the past, Gadhafi referred to the rebels as "thugs" and "rats." Ibrahim said he saw Gadhafi Friday in Libya but would not give more details. Mahmoud Shammam, the information minister in the rebels' transitional council, rejected the offer. "I would like to state very clearly, we don't recognize them. We are looking at them as criminals. We are going to arrest them very soon," he said at a news conference. "Talking about negotiations is a daydream for what remains of the dictatorship." Meanwhile, more signs emerged of arbitrary killings of detainees and civilians by Libyan forces as the rebels swept into Tripoli earlier this week, including some 50 charred corpses found in a makeshift lockup near a military base that had been run by the Khamis Brigade, an elite unit commanded by Gadhafi's son, Khamis. Mabrouk Abdullah, who said he survived a massacre by Gadhafi's forces, also told The Associated Press that guards opened fired at some 130 civilian detainees in a hangar near the military base, and fired again when prisoners tried to flee. Abdullah, who was at the site Sunday, said he and other prisoners were told by a guard they would be released Tuesday. Instead, guards threw hand grenades and opened fire at detainees huddling in a hangar. Abdullah said he had been crouching along a wall and was shot in his side, lifting his shirt to show his injury. As survivors of the initial
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