That just about sums it all up.
Ndubisi
"We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office..." - Aesop
On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 6:55 PM, kenneth harrow <harrow@msu.edu> wrote:
> dear gloria
> my statements about the french support for african culture are not an
> apology for colonialism. they are an acknowledgment that the relationship
> between france and its excolonies is not an all or nothing affair. if you
> come closer, get to know the institutions and people involved, then lo and
> behold, there is not uniformity of views or attitudes. just as the french
> were working their hardest to insure they had favorable trade relations with
> their ex-colonies, they were also supporting efforts to use the french
> language, even if that resulted in films or literature that criticized the
> french.
> for 4 decades the flowering of african cinema owed a great deal to french
> support. it is easy to wax cynical about it, and i have no trouble attacking
> colonialism or neocolonialism as broad institutional structures designed to
> work to french advantage. but i would be lying if i were to deny the
> evidence of the beautiful art exhibits, film showings, panels after panels
> on writers like ken bugul, supported by the enlightened directors of the
> french cultural center in dakar. in fact, it was there that sembene's last
> film, moolade, had its opening, and was shown. there. only there.
> the first african films i got to see were at the french cultural center,
> that hosted an african film festival, in yaounde in 1977. that's when i
> first saw touki bouki.
> there is much more i could add, about the negative side as well as the
> positive side.
> i start to close down when i read statements that want to make it all or
> nothing, usually because these are made by people who embrace
> generalizations without knowing the details or facts. a great example is the
> post-production work on francophone films done in paris at atria with andree
> davanture leading the team, for decades. dozens and dozens of great african
> films were edited there, under conditions of cooperation between ms
> davanture and her editors and african filmmakers. finally the french decided
> they had other priorities and stopped financing it, and the grand project of
> la francophonie has been much reduced. but without that shop, i fear
> francophone african film, which has really become "african film" without the
> francophone requirement, would have been considerably reduced. all you have
> to do is compare the meager production of anglophone film with francophone
> to see the difference.
> with nollywood, all this has changed. the great transformation wrought by
> the capitalist, neoliberal venture in nigeria has produced more films than
> ever in africa.
>
> life is complicated. i stated this earlier about how colonialism, despite
> its oppressive nature, inevitable conferred benefits, as any reading of
> mariama ba's Une si longue lettre or hampate ba's wangrin confirms. maybe
> "benefit" is not the right word. we take hold of what opportunities we are
> afforded, even by institutions that oppress us, and turn them to our
> advantage when we can. that happened in africa under colonial rule and
> postcolonial rule. how can we understand those times unless we are prepared
> to understand that complexity of relationship.
> has anyone read birago diop's autobiographies? you will see my point spelled
> out there in great detail
> ken
>
> On 9/9/11 9:06 AM, Emeagwali, Gloria (History) wrote:
>>
>> 'those deals will not be any prettier by our considering confucionism,
>> probably the world's most boring religion (yes, i did study it as a
>> student, along with other world religions, with houston smith at mit.)'
>> Harrow
>>
>> RELIGIONS ARE BY DEFINITION BORING....
>>
>> ' anyone who cares about african
>> literature and cinema, my fields, and who lived in francophone
>> countries, is well aware that much work was done by the ex-colonizer to
>> support and promote african culture. that is still the case, as anyone
>> who has passed through the french cultural center in downtown dakar can
>> attest.' Harrow
>>
>> AN APOLOGY FOR COLONIALISM?
>>
>> ......... and the terms of
>> the sale of african minerals have to be known if we are to believe
>> chinese business is good for africa.
>>
>> NO EVIDENCE THAT THE CHINESE ARE STEALING THE MINERALS
>> AND TAKING THEM FOR FREE AS THE COLONIALISTS LARGELY DID.
>> IN FACT THE TERMS OF TRADE IMPROVED CONSIDERABLY ONCE
>> THE CHINESE ENTERED THE MARKET.
>>
>> where is the china we want to love and celebrate in this? now???
>>>>
>>>> and as for myself, having seen the great brotherly b.s. of chinese 3d
>>>> worldism in cameroon in the 70s, the chinese maybe the most racist of
>>>> any foreigners on the continent at that time...
>>
>> MIRROR MIRROR ON THE WALL,
>> WHICH IS THE DEADLIEST OF THEM ALL?
>>
>>
>> Dr. Gloria Emeagwali
>> Prof. of History& African Studies
>> History Department
>> Central Connecticut State University
>> New Britain
>> CT 06050
>> www.africahistory.net
>> www.esnips.com/web/GloriaEmeagwali
>> emeagwali@ccsu.edu
>> ________________________________________
>> From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
>> [usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of kenneth harrow
>> [harrow@msu.edu]
>> Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2011 10:06 AM
>> To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - chinese arms for ghaddafi
>>
>> dear cornelius
>> how are we to assess what china, the china of today, can bring to
>> africa, that is my question.
>> on one point, made earlier on this list, i quite agree. when europe had
>> its way with africa, without the competition of china, the affects of
>> the past 60 years reflect largely exploitation and negative cultural
>> domination. largely, but not entirely. anyone who cares about african
>> literature and cinema, my fields, and who lived in francophone
>> countries, is well aware that much work was done by the ex-colonizer to
>> support and promote african culture. that is still the case, as anyone
>> who has passed through the french cultural center in downtown dakar can
>> attest.
>>
>> but the larger economic and political roles have been generally to
>> europe's advantage and africa's disadvantage. that is why the u.s. and
>> europe are so negative about china's entry into africa--it represents
>> real competition. i agree that that alone denotes a positive role for
>> china.
>>
>> but that isn't enough. we need to see the cost-benefit sheet; the prices
>> paid for china's support of repressive regimes; the economic
>> relationships and how africans are benefiting from the chinese deals.
>> those deals will not be any prettier by our considering confucionism,
>> probably the world's most boring religion (yes, i did study it as a
>> student, along with other world religions, with houston smith at mit.) i
>> see negative interventions in places like the great lakes basin. but the
>> longer term investments are crucial for this debate, and the terms of
>> the sale of african minerals have to be known if we are to believe
>> chinese business is good for africa.
>> i was hoping some with expertise in this field--about which i am
>> ignorant--would have something to contribute to our knowledge
>> ken
>>
>> On 9/8/11 9:09 AM, Cornelius Hamelberg wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Kenneth,
>>>
>>> "But I, being poor, have only my dreams; I have spread my dreams under
>>> your feet;" and I am treading softly.
>>>
>>> Yes, it does make sense to review the past. As Professor Paul
>>> Eidelberg says, "When I visited China, I learned that the Chinese word
>>> for China means "center of the universe."
>>>
>>> Now, you can't say of today's China, " Things fall apart, the centre
>>> cannot hold" etc. etc.
>>>
>>> Whilst not reviling any of China's past ( Professor Eidelberg doesn't
>>> talk about it ( China's past) in the article I am referring to and
>>> can't find at the moment ) but he does however show a lot of
>>> animosity towards China for China being the only nation emerging in
>>> today's world, with the potential of making even greater strides in
>>> the coming decades if not centuries, to challenge Western dominance in
>>> the near future. That's real not just potential fear.
>>>
>>> Once upon a time in this world my best friend was was a gentleman by
>>> the name Dr. Michael Tunkel, a Lithuanian Jew (of Lithuanian parents)
>>> who was born and bred in Harbin, China which he left in 1950 at the
>>> age of 34 - after Mao& the Communists took over – as a result of
>>> which they lost their business and he emigrated to Israel. He
>>> emigrated to Sweden in 1983 and I met him in 1995. from which point
>>> on until about nine months before he passed away at the age of 92, I
>>> saw him at least two to three times a week. He taught me a lot. He
>>> played Chinese piano. He said that unlike us normal mortals, the
>>> Chinese people have a sixth sense in their hands ,greater dexterity
>>> of the hand - a more developed tactile sense... He was a great admirer
>>> of Mao and the Chinese people with special emphasis on the fact that
>>> Mao united China. He was also a devoted hardliner fan of Vladimir
>>> Jabotinsky.
>>>
>>> I'm talking about the China that produced Confucius and Li Po, the
>>> same China that the United States owes four trillion dollars.
>>>
>>> We are talking about the same China, the same continuum, many epochs
>>> of development, a strong foundation, the more recent China of which
>>> Gavin Menzies, wrote these two books:
>>>
>>> "1421 The Year China Discovered the World"
>>>
>>> "1434: The Year a Magnificent Chinese Fleet Sailed to Italy and
>>> Ignited the Renaissance."
>>>
>>> The China of which one of my English teachers in secondary school,
>>> Major A.T. Von S. Bradshaw ( an Englishman ) used to spend the first
>>> few minutes of every English Literature lesson lecturing us about and
>>> telling us – believe it or not , this was around 1962 – that "the
>>> future belongs to China!"
>>>
>>> Now of course we are talking about the Great China in the same breath
>>> that we are talking about Christopher Columbus' discovery of America
>>> in 1492, the same year that the Jews suffered the Inquisition and all
>>> those who refused to convert to Isabella's religion were expelled from
>>> Spain and many found refuge in Turkey and what is now the latest
>>> greatest newcomer, to the world stage, the United States.
>>>
>>> You are the one raking up not a glorious past, but one riddled with
>>> Chinese ills.
>>>
>>> I do have Chinese friends and relatives here – and friendship is
>>> something especially of great value to a person from China, something
>>> to be cultivated, so I had better pay much more attention to them.....
>>>
>>> I think that the people relationships also have to be developed , not
>>> just between Israel and the Arabs...
>>>
>>> On Sep 8, 4:45 am, kenneth harrow<har...@msu.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> dear cornelius
>>>> i wonder if it makes much sense to go back to the past to evaluate where
>>>> a country is now.
>>>> think of japan just 70 years ago, compared with now?
>>>> and which china, in the past, are we to celebrate? the ming dynasty, the
>>>> long long feudal periods, the rise of chang kai shek and incipient
>>>> modernism, the communist revolution, the american collusion and mao's
>>>> great march, the cultural revolution, the great leap forward, and the
>>>> repression, the backward anti-intellectualism that killed a generation
>>>> of artists and thinkers, or what, the globalization pragmatists, with
>>>> their soft repressive authoritarian state now? is there anything left
>>>> for us to embrace?
>>>> where is the china we want to love and celebrate in this? now???
>>>> and as for myself, having seen the great brotherly b.s. of chinese 3d
>>>> worldism in cameroon in the 70s, the chinese maybe the most racist of
>>>> any foreigners on the continent at that time...
>>>> ok, now it's different; they are richer. but also, from what we have
>>>> seen in senegal, again almost completely indifferent to african culture,
>>>> indifferent to learning african languages, being with african people,
>>>> unless those are people working for them. there for the money, short
>>>> term pain, long term profits
>>>> what is there to love?
>>>> i really wonder what others experience of the chinese on the continent
>>>> in our times has been. can others on the list give us something to hang
>>>> onto, to have hope for a positive result? i mean from personal
>>>> experience, not more propaganda
>>>> ken
>>>>
>>>> On 9/7/11 4:34 PM, Cornelius Hamelberg wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Dear Ken,
>>>>> Thanks for the details. Hopefully the Chinese weapons if they ever
>>>>> arrive on Libyan soil will be delivered unto the hands of the NTC and
>>>>> stay with them and not be passed on and find their way into the hands
>>>>> of eager terrorists ,be they affiliates of Palestinian Jihadists, al-
>>>>> Qaeda or the ambitious elements cloaked as Boko Haram.
>>>>> About your concerns about China's future in Africa/Africa's future in
>>>>> China I'm afraid that what you'll get from some of the powerless
>>>>> AfriKanists of the Gaddafi's hue is more toothless ideology (mostly
>>>>> theoretical building of castles in the air about e.g. The
>>>>> Constitution of the United States of Africa which they say will be
>>>>> implemented , latest 2017) ) and about liking China more than
>>>>> America which has given them everything, because China turns a blind
>>>>> eye on Human Rights Transgressions being committed by many of the
>>>>> African leaders with whom they do business whereas the US and the best
>>>>> of the West at least would like respect for human rights as a
>>>>> condition for doing business or giving development aid.
>>>>> The Chinese civilisation has been around for a very long time and
>>>>> the Chinese are said to be thinking and planning for the next five
>>>>> hundred years. Like,
>>>>> Well, I don t know, but I ve been told
>>>>> The streets in heaven are lined with gold
>>>>> I ask you how things could get much worse
>>>>> If the Russians happen to get up there first
>>>>> Wowee! pretty scary!
>>>>> For some people, the idea of China/ the Chinese taking over in Africa
>>>>> within 150 years of the Berlin Conference, that too is pretty scary,
>>>>> especially since the Chinese have the advantage in the eyes of all
>>>>> those who look at the past and chime, The Chinese never colonised
>>>>> us ; China doe not have that back-load, so today the Chinese don't
>>>>> use big grammar - they can speak the same Broken Palm Wine
>>>>> Drinkard metaphorical English as Amos Tutuola : all the Chinaman has
>>>>> to do is to take Mugabe by the left or right arm , hook up with him
>>>>> arm in arm and ask him this question :
>>>>> We make friendship? - we make friendship and we do business and the
>>>>> deal is done.
>>>>> Indeed, Chinese weapons could be very big business in Africa.
>>>>> This news flashed from the Tripoli to the cape and I' sure that it
>>>>> must have resonated a worrisome chord in you too: David Cameron warns
>>>>> Africa about China:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=sv&sugexp=gsis%2Ci18n%3Dtrue&cp=38&gs_id=...
>>>>> Stretching my imagination a little further ahead and should China
>>>>> want to take it all....I suppose that Africom could come in useful if
>>>>> the West and China will be battling it out on mainland Africa in the
>>>>> not too distant future not for the souls ( Human Rights) but mostly
>>>>> for gold in Ghana and South Africa and it will not be an ideological
>>>>> or religious battle.
>>>>> he comes for your gold,
>>>>> watch out for your soul. :
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Rock-%27N%27-Roll-Is-Music-Now...
>>>>> The war mongers among the AfricKanists who want a unified African
>>>>> continental army of their own mostly speak English and have still not
>>>>> got around to adding Chinese to their secret language
>>>>> repertoire.....who knows, one day every Chinese will be a professor of
>>>>> English - but not every colonial subject is yet ambitious to be a
>>>>> professor of Chinese hieroglyphics yes, but not Chinese to write
>>>>> competent linguistic analyses, not even those who would like to be
>>>>> somewhere in the chain along the Chinese military chain of command at
>>>>> a time that they could want to be fighting side by side with China for
>>>>> possession / mastership of their own homelands
>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQXqgk_GPxc
>>>>> Others are a little more cautious and say, Better the devil you know
>>>>> than the devil you don't know...
>>>>> Me? No more hide and speak, I'm going to get that Skype; I'll
>>>>> continue to be me but like Leonard Cohen, I'm staying home tonight
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.google.com/search?q=Leonard+Cohen%2C+Democracy&ie=utf-8&oe...
>>>>> On Sep 7, 4:49 pm, kenneth harrow<har...@msu.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> dear cornelius
>>>>>> just reading the bloomberg account of this issue, on the site you
>>>>>> provided. it does make it seem that private companies in china made
>>>>>> deals; it isn't clear if they were carried out, or if a variant of the
>>>>>> deal was consummated by the flow of chinese arms previously stocked in
>>>>>> algeria. further, the ntc alluded to weapons used against them that
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> thought were chinese.
>>>>>> it seems to me that if the chinese govt says they are now going to
>>>>>> make
>>>>>> sure that arms are not shipped without their approval they are
>>>>>> conceding
>>>>>> that this might have occurred beforehand.
>>>>>> the globe and mail reporter, whom i heard discuss this on the radio,
>>>>>> alluded to papers he saw that indicated a deal had been struck.
>>>>>> if that is true, it seems less relevant whether they were able to
>>>>>> actually ship them over in time to meet their contract.
>>>>>> this is part of our larger question, still a question open for
>>>>>> discussion, of the role of china in africa. i hear pros and cons, and
>>>>>> remain interested in knowing ultimately whether this will benefit
>>>>>> african states or not.
>>>>>> china built a great road in mauretania. what did they get in exchange?
>>>>>> who will benefit from it? i want concrete answers to concrete
>>>>>> questions,
>>>>>> not ideological posing, in this debate. i am truly curious about what
>>>>>> the chinese money means for africa.
>>>>>> ken
>>>>>> On 9/7/11 9:40 AM, Cornelius Hamelberg wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's no good reason for this drawn out debate about whether or not
>>>>>>> China has recently been selling arms to Gaddafi when China has made
>>>>>>> it clear that they have not.
>>>>>>> First of all we must make a distinction between private firms and the
>>>>>>> government of China which in the end is the authority that grants or
>>>>>>> denies permission to do business - even a potentially lucrative
>>>>>>> business possibility such as taking over Sweden's SAAB - not to
>>>>>>> mention a major foreign policy affair such as selling arms to Gaddafi
>>>>>>> in the middle of an arms embargo against Gaddafi which they
>>>>>>> themselves supported when the UN voted.
>>>>>>> What actually happened is that in desperation some of Gaddafi's big
>>>>>>> guns went over to China and tried to make some arms deals there with
>>>>>>> the firms that they contacted, and they did not succeed .
>>>>>>> The media is replete with these denials and explanations about what
>>>>>>> actually happened : Gaddafi's unsuccessful attempts to buy more
>>>>>>> weapons:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.google.com/search?q=China+%3A+we+did+not+sell+arms+to+Gadd...
>>>>>>> There are a number of other issues here that have been erroneously
>>>>>>> reported along with spurious claims that will be vengaged most
>>>>>>> vigorously if those erroneous reports persist
>>>>>>> On Sep 7, 10:35 am, Olayinka Agbetuyi<yagbet...@hotmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks for the clarifications on the specific issue of voting on the
>>>>>>>> arms embargo, but the jury is still out on the veracity of its violations by
>>>>>>>> China. Whichever way that eventually unravels, my point is that Gaddafis
>>>>>>>> and Chinese models of governance (given the American issues with human
>>>>>>>> rights violations in the latter) should leave no one in surprise if the
>>>>>>>> latter goes to any length to prop up the erstwhile regime in Tripoli. This
>>>>>>>> was my connection with the proxy wars. We know how much surreptitious
>>>>>>>> support the French gave the Continentals in the American War of Independence
>>>>>>>> from England even though a large section of American historigraphy
>>>>>>>> represented that as the sole victory of the colonies against England.
>>>>>>>> Olayinka Agbetuyi
>>>>>>>> Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 19:02:57 -0400
>>>>>>>> From: har...@msu.edu
>>>>>>>> To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - chinese arms for ghaddafi
>>>>>>>> china voted to accept the arms embargo which it itself violated
>>>>>>>> ken
>>>>>>>> On 9/6/11 7:00 AM, Olayinka Agbetuyi wrote:
>>>>>>>> Ken:
>>>>>>>> Having read some of Abdul Bangura's opinions and the view of
>>>>>>>> Friedman in the article supplied by Cornelius Hamelberg I do not know
>>>>>>>> whether the comparison between China and Walcotts poem is entirely
>>>>
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> read more »
>>
>> --
>> kenneth w. harrow
>> professor of english
>> michigan state university
>> department of english
>> east lansing, mi 48824-1036
>> ph. 517 803 8839
>> harrow@msu.edu
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "USA-Africa
>> Dialogue Series" moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin.
>> For current archives, visit
>> http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
>> For previous archives, visit
>> http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
>> To post to this group, send an email to
>> USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue-
>> unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>>
>
> --
> kenneth w. harrow
> distinguished professor of english
> michigan state university
> department of english
> east lansing, mi 48824-1036
> ph. 517 803 8839
> harrow@msu.edu
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "USA-Africa
> Dialogue Series" moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin.
> For current archives, visit
> http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
> For previous archives, visit
> http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
> To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue-
> unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
-- "We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office..." - Aesop
On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 6:55 PM, kenneth harrow <harrow@msu.edu> wrote:
> dear gloria
> my statements about the french support for african culture are not an
> apology for colonialism. they are an acknowledgment that the relationship
> between france and its excolonies is not an all or nothing affair. if you
> come closer, get to know the institutions and people involved, then lo and
> behold, there is not uniformity of views or attitudes. just as the french
> were working their hardest to insure they had favorable trade relations with
> their ex-colonies, they were also supporting efforts to use the french
> language, even if that resulted in films or literature that criticized the
> french.
> for 4 decades the flowering of african cinema owed a great deal to french
> support. it is easy to wax cynical about it, and i have no trouble attacking
> colonialism or neocolonialism as broad institutional structures designed to
> work to french advantage. but i would be lying if i were to deny the
> evidence of the beautiful art exhibits, film showings, panels after panels
> on writers like ken bugul, supported by the enlightened directors of the
> french cultural center in dakar. in fact, it was there that sembene's last
> film, moolade, had its opening, and was shown. there. only there.
> the first african films i got to see were at the french cultural center,
> that hosted an african film festival, in yaounde in 1977. that's when i
> first saw touki bouki.
> there is much more i could add, about the negative side as well as the
> positive side.
> i start to close down when i read statements that want to make it all or
> nothing, usually because these are made by people who embrace
> generalizations without knowing the details or facts. a great example is the
> post-production work on francophone films done in paris at atria with andree
> davanture leading the team, for decades. dozens and dozens of great african
> films were edited there, under conditions of cooperation between ms
> davanture and her editors and african filmmakers. finally the french decided
> they had other priorities and stopped financing it, and the grand project of
> la francophonie has been much reduced. but without that shop, i fear
> francophone african film, which has really become "african film" without the
> francophone requirement, would have been considerably reduced. all you have
> to do is compare the meager production of anglophone film with francophone
> to see the difference.
> with nollywood, all this has changed. the great transformation wrought by
> the capitalist, neoliberal venture in nigeria has produced more films than
> ever in africa.
>
> life is complicated. i stated this earlier about how colonialism, despite
> its oppressive nature, inevitable conferred benefits, as any reading of
> mariama ba's Une si longue lettre or hampate ba's wangrin confirms. maybe
> "benefit" is not the right word. we take hold of what opportunities we are
> afforded, even by institutions that oppress us, and turn them to our
> advantage when we can. that happened in africa under colonial rule and
> postcolonial rule. how can we understand those times unless we are prepared
> to understand that complexity of relationship.
> has anyone read birago diop's autobiographies? you will see my point spelled
> out there in great detail
> ken
>
> On 9/9/11 9:06 AM, Emeagwali, Gloria (History) wrote:
>>
>> 'those deals will not be any prettier by our considering confucionism,
>> probably the world's most boring religion (yes, i did study it as a
>> student, along with other world religions, with houston smith at mit.)'
>> Harrow
>>
>> RELIGIONS ARE BY DEFINITION BORING....
>>
>> ' anyone who cares about african
>> literature and cinema, my fields, and who lived in francophone
>> countries, is well aware that much work was done by the ex-colonizer to
>> support and promote african culture. that is still the case, as anyone
>> who has passed through the french cultural center in downtown dakar can
>> attest.' Harrow
>>
>> AN APOLOGY FOR COLONIALISM?
>>
>> ......... and the terms of
>> the sale of african minerals have to be known if we are to believe
>> chinese business is good for africa.
>>
>> NO EVIDENCE THAT THE CHINESE ARE STEALING THE MINERALS
>> AND TAKING THEM FOR FREE AS THE COLONIALISTS LARGELY DID.
>> IN FACT THE TERMS OF TRADE IMPROVED CONSIDERABLY ONCE
>> THE CHINESE ENTERED THE MARKET.
>>
>> where is the china we want to love and celebrate in this? now???
>>>>
>>>> and as for myself, having seen the great brotherly b.s. of chinese 3d
>>>> worldism in cameroon in the 70s, the chinese maybe the most racist of
>>>> any foreigners on the continent at that time...
>>
>> MIRROR MIRROR ON THE WALL,
>> WHICH IS THE DEADLIEST OF THEM ALL?
>>
>>
>> Dr. Gloria Emeagwali
>> Prof. of History& African Studies
>> History Department
>> Central Connecticut State University
>> New Britain
>> CT 06050
>> www.africahistory.net
>> www.esnips.com/web/GloriaEmeagwali
>> emeagwali@ccsu.edu
>> ________________________________________
>> From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
>> [usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of kenneth harrow
>> [harrow@msu.edu]
>> Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2011 10:06 AM
>> To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - chinese arms for ghaddafi
>>
>> dear cornelius
>> how are we to assess what china, the china of today, can bring to
>> africa, that is my question.
>> on one point, made earlier on this list, i quite agree. when europe had
>> its way with africa, without the competition of china, the affects of
>> the past 60 years reflect largely exploitation and negative cultural
>> domination. largely, but not entirely. anyone who cares about african
>> literature and cinema, my fields, and who lived in francophone
>> countries, is well aware that much work was done by the ex-colonizer to
>> support and promote african culture. that is still the case, as anyone
>> who has passed through the french cultural center in downtown dakar can
>> attest.
>>
>> but the larger economic and political roles have been generally to
>> europe's advantage and africa's disadvantage. that is why the u.s. and
>> europe are so negative about china's entry into africa--it represents
>> real competition. i agree that that alone denotes a positive role for
>> china.
>>
>> but that isn't enough. we need to see the cost-benefit sheet; the prices
>> paid for china's support of repressive regimes; the economic
>> relationships and how africans are benefiting from the chinese deals.
>> those deals will not be any prettier by our considering confucionism,
>> probably the world's most boring religion (yes, i did study it as a
>> student, along with other world religions, with houston smith at mit.) i
>> see negative interventions in places like the great lakes basin. but the
>> longer term investments are crucial for this debate, and the terms of
>> the sale of african minerals have to be known if we are to believe
>> chinese business is good for africa.
>> i was hoping some with expertise in this field--about which i am
>> ignorant--would have something to contribute to our knowledge
>> ken
>>
>> On 9/8/11 9:09 AM, Cornelius Hamelberg wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Kenneth,
>>>
>>> "But I, being poor, have only my dreams; I have spread my dreams under
>>> your feet;" and I am treading softly.
>>>
>>> Yes, it does make sense to review the past. As Professor Paul
>>> Eidelberg says, "When I visited China, I learned that the Chinese word
>>> for China means "center of the universe."
>>>
>>> Now, you can't say of today's China, " Things fall apart, the centre
>>> cannot hold" etc. etc.
>>>
>>> Whilst not reviling any of China's past ( Professor Eidelberg doesn't
>>> talk about it ( China's past) in the article I am referring to and
>>> can't find at the moment ) but he does however show a lot of
>>> animosity towards China for China being the only nation emerging in
>>> today's world, with the potential of making even greater strides in
>>> the coming decades if not centuries, to challenge Western dominance in
>>> the near future. That's real not just potential fear.
>>>
>>> Once upon a time in this world my best friend was was a gentleman by
>>> the name Dr. Michael Tunkel, a Lithuanian Jew (of Lithuanian parents)
>>> who was born and bred in Harbin, China which he left in 1950 at the
>>> age of 34 - after Mao& the Communists took over – as a result of
>>> which they lost their business and he emigrated to Israel. He
>>> emigrated to Sweden in 1983 and I met him in 1995. from which point
>>> on until about nine months before he passed away at the age of 92, I
>>> saw him at least two to three times a week. He taught me a lot. He
>>> played Chinese piano. He said that unlike us normal mortals, the
>>> Chinese people have a sixth sense in their hands ,greater dexterity
>>> of the hand - a more developed tactile sense... He was a great admirer
>>> of Mao and the Chinese people with special emphasis on the fact that
>>> Mao united China. He was also a devoted hardliner fan of Vladimir
>>> Jabotinsky.
>>>
>>> I'm talking about the China that produced Confucius and Li Po, the
>>> same China that the United States owes four trillion dollars.
>>>
>>> We are talking about the same China, the same continuum, many epochs
>>> of development, a strong foundation, the more recent China of which
>>> Gavin Menzies, wrote these two books:
>>>
>>> "1421 The Year China Discovered the World"
>>>
>>> "1434: The Year a Magnificent Chinese Fleet Sailed to Italy and
>>> Ignited the Renaissance."
>>>
>>> The China of which one of my English teachers in secondary school,
>>> Major A.T. Von S. Bradshaw ( an Englishman ) used to spend the first
>>> few minutes of every English Literature lesson lecturing us about and
>>> telling us – believe it or not , this was around 1962 – that "the
>>> future belongs to China!"
>>>
>>> Now of course we are talking about the Great China in the same breath
>>> that we are talking about Christopher Columbus' discovery of America
>>> in 1492, the same year that the Jews suffered the Inquisition and all
>>> those who refused to convert to Isabella's religion were expelled from
>>> Spain and many found refuge in Turkey and what is now the latest
>>> greatest newcomer, to the world stage, the United States.
>>>
>>> You are the one raking up not a glorious past, but one riddled with
>>> Chinese ills.
>>>
>>> I do have Chinese friends and relatives here – and friendship is
>>> something especially of great value to a person from China, something
>>> to be cultivated, so I had better pay much more attention to them.....
>>>
>>> I think that the people relationships also have to be developed , not
>>> just between Israel and the Arabs...
>>>
>>> On Sep 8, 4:45 am, kenneth harrow<har...@msu.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> dear cornelius
>>>> i wonder if it makes much sense to go back to the past to evaluate where
>>>> a country is now.
>>>> think of japan just 70 years ago, compared with now?
>>>> and which china, in the past, are we to celebrate? the ming dynasty, the
>>>> long long feudal periods, the rise of chang kai shek and incipient
>>>> modernism, the communist revolution, the american collusion and mao's
>>>> great march, the cultural revolution, the great leap forward, and the
>>>> repression, the backward anti-intellectualism that killed a generation
>>>> of artists and thinkers, or what, the globalization pragmatists, with
>>>> their soft repressive authoritarian state now? is there anything left
>>>> for us to embrace?
>>>> where is the china we want to love and celebrate in this? now???
>>>> and as for myself, having seen the great brotherly b.s. of chinese 3d
>>>> worldism in cameroon in the 70s, the chinese maybe the most racist of
>>>> any foreigners on the continent at that time...
>>>> ok, now it's different; they are richer. but also, from what we have
>>>> seen in senegal, again almost completely indifferent to african culture,
>>>> indifferent to learning african languages, being with african people,
>>>> unless those are people working for them. there for the money, short
>>>> term pain, long term profits
>>>> what is there to love?
>>>> i really wonder what others experience of the chinese on the continent
>>>> in our times has been. can others on the list give us something to hang
>>>> onto, to have hope for a positive result? i mean from personal
>>>> experience, not more propaganda
>>>> ken
>>>>
>>>> On 9/7/11 4:34 PM, Cornelius Hamelberg wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Dear Ken,
>>>>> Thanks for the details. Hopefully the Chinese weapons if they ever
>>>>> arrive on Libyan soil will be delivered unto the hands of the NTC and
>>>>> stay with them and not be passed on and find their way into the hands
>>>>> of eager terrorists ,be they affiliates of Palestinian Jihadists, al-
>>>>> Qaeda or the ambitious elements cloaked as Boko Haram.
>>>>> About your concerns about China's future in Africa/Africa's future in
>>>>> China I'm afraid that what you'll get from some of the powerless
>>>>> AfriKanists of the Gaddafi's hue is more toothless ideology (mostly
>>>>> theoretical building of castles in the air about e.g. The
>>>>> Constitution of the United States of Africa which they say will be
>>>>> implemented , latest 2017) ) and about liking China more than
>>>>> America which has given them everything, because China turns a blind
>>>>> eye on Human Rights Transgressions being committed by many of the
>>>>> African leaders with whom they do business whereas the US and the best
>>>>> of the West at least would like respect for human rights as a
>>>>> condition for doing business or giving development aid.
>>>>> The Chinese civilisation has been around for a very long time and
>>>>> the Chinese are said to be thinking and planning for the next five
>>>>> hundred years. Like,
>>>>> Well, I don t know, but I ve been told
>>>>> The streets in heaven are lined with gold
>>>>> I ask you how things could get much worse
>>>>> If the Russians happen to get up there first
>>>>> Wowee! pretty scary!
>>>>> For some people, the idea of China/ the Chinese taking over in Africa
>>>>> within 150 years of the Berlin Conference, that too is pretty scary,
>>>>> especially since the Chinese have the advantage in the eyes of all
>>>>> those who look at the past and chime, The Chinese never colonised
>>>>> us ; China doe not have that back-load, so today the Chinese don't
>>>>> use big grammar - they can speak the same Broken Palm Wine
>>>>> Drinkard metaphorical English as Amos Tutuola : all the Chinaman has
>>>>> to do is to take Mugabe by the left or right arm , hook up with him
>>>>> arm in arm and ask him this question :
>>>>> We make friendship? - we make friendship and we do business and the
>>>>> deal is done.
>>>>> Indeed, Chinese weapons could be very big business in Africa.
>>>>> This news flashed from the Tripoli to the cape and I' sure that it
>>>>> must have resonated a worrisome chord in you too: David Cameron warns
>>>>> Africa about China:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=sv&sugexp=gsis%2Ci18n%3Dtrue&cp=38&gs_id=...
>>>>> Stretching my imagination a little further ahead and should China
>>>>> want to take it all....I suppose that Africom could come in useful if
>>>>> the West and China will be battling it out on mainland Africa in the
>>>>> not too distant future not for the souls ( Human Rights) but mostly
>>>>> for gold in Ghana and South Africa and it will not be an ideological
>>>>> or religious battle.
>>>>> he comes for your gold,
>>>>> watch out for your soul. :
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Rock-%27N%27-Roll-Is-Music-Now...
>>>>> The war mongers among the AfricKanists who want a unified African
>>>>> continental army of their own mostly speak English and have still not
>>>>> got around to adding Chinese to their secret language
>>>>> repertoire.....who knows, one day every Chinese will be a professor of
>>>>> English - but not every colonial subject is yet ambitious to be a
>>>>> professor of Chinese hieroglyphics yes, but not Chinese to write
>>>>> competent linguistic analyses, not even those who would like to be
>>>>> somewhere in the chain along the Chinese military chain of command at
>>>>> a time that they could want to be fighting side by side with China for
>>>>> possession / mastership of their own homelands
>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQXqgk_GPxc
>>>>> Others are a little more cautious and say, Better the devil you know
>>>>> than the devil you don't know...
>>>>> Me? No more hide and speak, I'm going to get that Skype; I'll
>>>>> continue to be me but like Leonard Cohen, I'm staying home tonight
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.google.com/search?q=Leonard+Cohen%2C+Democracy&ie=utf-8&oe...
>>>>> On Sep 7, 4:49 pm, kenneth harrow<har...@msu.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> dear cornelius
>>>>>> just reading the bloomberg account of this issue, on the site you
>>>>>> provided. it does make it seem that private companies in china made
>>>>>> deals; it isn't clear if they were carried out, or if a variant of the
>>>>>> deal was consummated by the flow of chinese arms previously stocked in
>>>>>> algeria. further, the ntc alluded to weapons used against them that
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> thought were chinese.
>>>>>> it seems to me that if the chinese govt says they are now going to
>>>>>> make
>>>>>> sure that arms are not shipped without their approval they are
>>>>>> conceding
>>>>>> that this might have occurred beforehand.
>>>>>> the globe and mail reporter, whom i heard discuss this on the radio,
>>>>>> alluded to papers he saw that indicated a deal had been struck.
>>>>>> if that is true, it seems less relevant whether they were able to
>>>>>> actually ship them over in time to meet their contract.
>>>>>> this is part of our larger question, still a question open for
>>>>>> discussion, of the role of china in africa. i hear pros and cons, and
>>>>>> remain interested in knowing ultimately whether this will benefit
>>>>>> african states or not.
>>>>>> china built a great road in mauretania. what did they get in exchange?
>>>>>> who will benefit from it? i want concrete answers to concrete
>>>>>> questions,
>>>>>> not ideological posing, in this debate. i am truly curious about what
>>>>>> the chinese money means for africa.
>>>>>> ken
>>>>>> On 9/7/11 9:40 AM, Cornelius Hamelberg wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's no good reason for this drawn out debate about whether or not
>>>>>>> China has recently been selling arms to Gaddafi when China has made
>>>>>>> it clear that they have not.
>>>>>>> First of all we must make a distinction between private firms and the
>>>>>>> government of China which in the end is the authority that grants or
>>>>>>> denies permission to do business - even a potentially lucrative
>>>>>>> business possibility such as taking over Sweden's SAAB - not to
>>>>>>> mention a major foreign policy affair such as selling arms to Gaddafi
>>>>>>> in the middle of an arms embargo against Gaddafi which they
>>>>>>> themselves supported when the UN voted.
>>>>>>> What actually happened is that in desperation some of Gaddafi's big
>>>>>>> guns went over to China and tried to make some arms deals there with
>>>>>>> the firms that they contacted, and they did not succeed .
>>>>>>> The media is replete with these denials and explanations about what
>>>>>>> actually happened : Gaddafi's unsuccessful attempts to buy more
>>>>>>> weapons:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.google.com/search?q=China+%3A+we+did+not+sell+arms+to+Gadd...
>>>>>>> There are a number of other issues here that have been erroneously
>>>>>>> reported along with spurious claims that will be vengaged most
>>>>>>> vigorously if those erroneous reports persist
>>>>>>> On Sep 7, 10:35 am, Olayinka Agbetuyi<yagbet...@hotmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks for the clarifications on the specific issue of voting on the
>>>>>>>> arms embargo, but the jury is still out on the veracity of its violations by
>>>>>>>> China. Whichever way that eventually unravels, my point is that Gaddafis
>>>>>>>> and Chinese models of governance (given the American issues with human
>>>>>>>> rights violations in the latter) should leave no one in surprise if the
>>>>>>>> latter goes to any length to prop up the erstwhile regime in Tripoli. This
>>>>>>>> was my connection with the proxy wars. We know how much surreptitious
>>>>>>>> support the French gave the Continentals in the American War of Independence
>>>>>>>> from England even though a large section of American historigraphy
>>>>>>>> represented that as the sole victory of the colonies against England.
>>>>>>>> Olayinka Agbetuyi
>>>>>>>> Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 19:02:57 -0400
>>>>>>>> From: har...@msu.edu
>>>>>>>> To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - chinese arms for ghaddafi
>>>>>>>> china voted to accept the arms embargo which it itself violated
>>>>>>>> ken
>>>>>>>> On 9/6/11 7:00 AM, Olayinka Agbetuyi wrote:
>>>>>>>> Ken:
>>>>>>>> Having read some of Abdul Bangura's opinions and the view of
>>>>>>>> Friedman in the article supplied by Cornelius Hamelberg I do not know
>>>>>>>> whether the comparison between China and Walcotts poem is entirely
>>>>
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> read more »
>>
>> --
>> kenneth w. harrow
>> professor of english
>> michigan state university
>> department of english
>> east lansing, mi 48824-1036
>> ph. 517 803 8839
>> harrow@msu.edu
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "USA-Africa
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>
> --
> kenneth w. harrow
> distinguished professor of english
> michigan state university
> department of english
> east lansing, mi 48824-1036
> ph. 517 803 8839
> harrow@msu.edu
>
> --
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