Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - A Hero Who Stood Up To The West And South Korea's Display Of Western Decadence

dear ogugua
i will try to get to the gist of the matter.
first, freedom to act has limits, which begin with the rights of others not to be oppressed by your freedom.
different countries interpret those rights differently. the united nations has recently adopted a platform of rights that include social and economic rights, and now amnesty has taken those rights as the basis for its actions, as well as the older notion of not being abused by one's government. you seem to take freedom from an oppressive govt as an ultimate good, which is the libertarian view. this freedom opens the door to corporations abusing their powers, and putting profits before the social good. i believe we are at an historical point where this abuse by corporations is at a peak. the trafigura case of dumping is a case in point.
secondly, it is a freedom that individual hate groups wish to preserve so they can urge their fellow racists to oppress minorities, without the govt getting in their way. an example of the extreme folly of this position was when the clinton administration refused to bomb radio mille collines at the outset of the genocide in rwanda because that would interfere with freedom of speech.
the issue might be stated: if you permit a govt to stop  radio state from propagating hate speech, they will ultimately be telling what to say and think all the time. the response might be, freedom of speech should not be unlimited; if it causes real harm, it should be prohibited. the difference here is between the u.s. where the former is emphasized, and canada or france where the latter is emphasized, to the point where it is illegal publicly to deny genocide, much less to advocate for it.
i could go on, but these issues don't get to the nub of the matter for me. rather, instead of beginning with freedom, as you do, i would begin with a vision of a just society, and adopt the cartoons adbul bangura sent. they say it well: freedom to starve isn't freedom, it is an unjust social order. freedom to kill people i hate, or to deny them the chance of a decent life, as is largely the condition of people from our inner cities, is only freedom for the current social order to perpetuate its divisions of wealth. if you come from the wealthy suburbs your freedom largely guarantees as continuing prosperous future; if you come from the inner city, the conditions of your life largely guarantee a future without much money, and with police arresting 1/3 of your young black men, and stopping you on the street. if you come from the rich suburbs, your schools as social milieu offer you opportunity; if you come from poor neighborhoods, anywhere, your conditions deny you those same opportunities.

i offered the case of the waltons since it is so extreme, and obscene. if it doesn't convince you, nothing i say will since i can only see injustice when i compare them with the tens of millions who are living in poverty in the u.s., not to mention the hundreds of millions living in greater misery elsewhere. their problems are our problems.

we don't all have to live at exactly the same level of economic prosperity, but when the social order, by way of taxation policies and indulgence of business interests, permits such great differences in wealth, what follows are differences in power. the excessive wealth and power of those who rule us now are joined to excessive greed and such stupidity as to foment massive miscontent with life here and mass pollution that threatens all of our lives.
this is how i see the free world you depict so positively. i agree with the occupy movement that it must change if we are all to live together here, in the u.s., or on earth. and as i have grandchildren, i worry about their future much more than my own.
ken

On 12/26/11 9:20 PM, Anunoby, Ogugua wrote:

My Dear Ken,

 

That the Occupy Wall Street Protests (OWCP) are taking place at al all is eloquent evidence that there is some freedom in the incident countries. The protests cannot and would not happen in North Korea. If it did, the State's response can only be imagined. They have taken place in South Korea.

That one is free is not to say that one may always have what one desires. It means that one can do more and better than simply hope to have what one desire someday. Freedom does not mean the equal attainment by all citizens' of their aspirations and expectations. Freedom does not guarantee outcomes. Freedom guarantees opportunity and choice of action for citizens. Freedom is not utopia.

Sam Walton and his heirs have done very well economically. Sam Walton's forebears did not do as well as he did. The freedoms gauranteed in the constitution of the US made it possible for the Sam Walton Family (SWF) to do as well as it has done. Will there be other successful families after the SWF now and in the future? Yes of course. Will every citizen and his/her heirs do as well as the SWF? No of course. The important thing is that the opportunity and choice for every citizen and his/her heirs to do as well as the SWF will for the most part be there.

I should comment on the confusion of freedom and justice. While they correlate, their correlation is not direct and necessarily positive. Freedom does not mean the equality of results for citizens' effort just as equal opportunity does not mean the equality of group and/or personal success. There is injustice in both free and controlled societies. The difference between the societies is that one who believes the one was treated unjustly is better situated and able to do something within the law about the real or perceived injustice in a free society, than the one could in a controlled society.

oa

 

 

 

 

 

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From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com [usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of kenneth harrow [harrow@msu.edu]
Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 6:08 PM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - A Hero Who Stood Up To The West And South Korea's Display Of Western Decadence

dear ogugua
thank you for your eloquent statement of principle. while i join with most of what your said unequivocably, as small voice in the back of my head asked, what do we do about occupy wall street? it doesn't negate your principles, it simply complicates the comparison your are drawing between the states you are applauding--defined here as free and prosperous--and those who are failing because of oppressiveness and poor policies that harm the citizens.
you wrote, "Everyone has one life on this planet. Everyone must be free to live the life that they want without violent or other oppression by one or more persons in power."
in this regard, i read yesterday that the 6 children of sam walton are richer than the total wealth of a quarter of the american people (or some such unimaginably large figure).
6 children of walmart, which has brought money and misery to millions.
can freedom be meaningful in a society, and world order, that sets these two communities together, the one eating an overabundant christmas dinner, the other eating the leftovers?
eaters of leftovers, where have we heard that before, o soyinka.
ken
 

On 12/23/11 6:33 PM, Anunoby, Ogugua wrote:

While it is convenient and expedient sometimes to argue that freedom is relative, free should mean free. It is laughable and arguably obnoxious to compare the degree of freedom for citizens of the Democratic Republic of North Korea and South Korea. The differences and evidence are there for all to see and feel.

It is also laughable that there are some who say that the late Jung Kim Il is a Hero because he stood up to the West. Standing up to foreigner powers is an absurd criterion for evaluating a leader's service to his/her people if the said standing-up does not make the lives of citizens better. It is an even more absurd measure if the lives of citizens are made worse by the stance.

Up until 1945, the people of the Korean peninsula generally had the same standard and quality of life. The difference today between in the North and South is clear. Citizens are free to protest in the south, they are not in the North. There is famine in the North, where international food continues. The South is a net exporter of food. A family dictatorship remains in charge in the North. Free political parties are in charge in the South. The South is a developed modern economy. The North is not. Citizens are allowed to and can pay to travel even abroad if they want to in the South. The opposite is the case in the North. The list of significant differences can go on.

Everyone has one life on this planet. Everyone must be free to live the life that they want without violent or other oppression by one or more persons in power. Standing up to the West has become a ruse employed by political leaders in some countries to oppress their fellow citizens. One is reminded of the many years Arab political and religious leaders in the Middle East and North Africa employed the Destroy-the-State-of-Israel ruse and oppressed their people.

Standing up to the West or any other foreigners cannot be the excuse or justification for regressive and oppressive governments anywhere. China and the Soviet Union, for decades, defended and practiced mindless collectivism at the expense of a good life for their citizens. The goal of government in both countries was standing up against capitalism. The citizens of both countries paid a heavy price for their governments' posture. The goal of the countries is different today. The countries' citizens' lives are by most independent account better. The West is yet to dominate or take over the countries.

Every death is a sad event and tragic for the family of the dead. The passing of Jung Kim Il may at the end of the day herald a new beginning for that country and a better life for her citizens. That country's new leader was educated in Switzerland. It is hoped that he will change some of what he knows may be wrong with politics and economics as they are practiced in his country.

 

oa

 

---

From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com [usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jaye Gaskia [ogbegbe@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 10:12 AM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
Cc: leonenet
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - A Hero Who Stood Up To The West And South Korea's Display Of Western Decadence

A very simple question; is there no distinction between enacting a lwa and actually enforcing it? Those laws have apparently been enforced 100% that there have been no complaints recorded arounds its enforcement!

 

It is either this is a perfect society, or it is one where taking the initiative to ensure that a law that exists is actually enforced is a crime more severely punished than the crime of breaching the law!

 

JG

From: Abdul Karim Bangura <theai@earthlink.net>
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com; "USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com" <USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com>
Cc: leonenet <leonenet@lists.umbc.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - A Hero Who Stood Up To The West And South Korea's Display Of Western Decadence

Freedom is relative! The tale of the proverbial tape:

Gender Equality:
North Korea:  Gender Equality Laws have been enforced since 1946 Law and strengthened by the 1990 Law
South Korea:  Women are greatly oppressed, as laws in the 1948 Constitution are not enforced

Number of Africans/Blacks:
North Korea:  20,000  (2011 estimate)
South Korea:   7,000  (2011 estimate)

Percentage of Muslims:
North Korea:  10%  (2009 estimate)
South Korea:  0.15%  (2009 estimate)

-----Original Message-----
From: Abdul Karim Bangura
Sent: Dec 21, 2011 7:42 AM
To: "USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com"
Cc: leonenet
Subject: USA Africa Dialogue Series - A Hero Who Stood Up To The West And South Korea's Display Of Western Decadence

Huge crowd of mourners gather for Kim Jong Il

 (AP Photo - Xinhua, Zhang Li)

>From Associated Press

December 21, 2011 7:22 AM EST

PYONGYANG, North Korea (AP) — Tens of thousands of mourners packed Pyongyang's snowy main square Wednesday to pay respects to late leader Kim Jong Il as North Korea tightened security in cities and won loyalty pledges from top generals for Kim's son and anointed heir.

Women held handkerchiefs to their faces as they wept and filed past a huge portrait of a smiling Kim Jong Il hanging on the Grand People's Study House, in the spot where a photograph of Kim's father, North Korean founder Kim Il Sung, usually hangs.

Kim Jong Il died of a heart attack Saturday, according to state media, which reported his death on Monday.

A huge crowd of mourners converged on Kim Il Sung Square with traditional white mourning flowers in hand. The crowd grew throughout the day, even as heavy snow fell, and some mourners took off their jackets to shield mourning wreaths set up in Kim's honor, just below the spot where he stood last year waving to crowds at the massive military parade where he introduced his successor, Kim Jong Un.

Two medical workers rushed to carry away a woman who had fainted.

"We chose to come here to care for citizens who might faint because of sorrow and mental strain," Jon Gyong Song, 29, who works as a doctor in a Pyongyang medical center, told The Associated Press. "The flow of mourners hasn't stopped since Tuesday night."

South Korean intelligence reports, meanwhile, indicated Wednesday that North Korea was consolidating power behind Kim's untested, twenty-something son.

Worries around Northeast Asia have risen sharply as Kim Jong Un rises to power in a country with a 1.2-million troop military, ballistic missiles and an advanced nuclear weapons development program.

South Korea has put its military on high alert. In another sign of border tension, Chinese boatmen along a river separating North Korea and China told the AP that North Korean police have ordered them to stop giving rides to tourists, saying they will fire on the boats if they see anyone with cameras.

Along the Koreas' border, the world's most heavily armed, South Korean activists and defectors launched giant balloons containing tens of thousands of propaganda leaflets, a move likely to infuriate the North. Some of the leaflets opposed a hereditary transfer of power in North Korea. Some showed graphic pictures of former Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi's battered corpse and described his gruesome death.

Kim Jong Il ruled the country for 17 years after inheriting power from his father, national founder and eternal North Korean President Kim Il Sung, who died in 1994. Kim Jong Un only entered the public view last year and remains a mystery to most of the world.

Seoul's National Intelligence Service believes the North is now focused on consolidating the younger Kim's power and has placed its troops on alert since Kim Jong Il's death, according to South Korean parliament member Kwon Young-se.

South Korean military officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of office policies that restrict comment on intelligence matters, confirmed that North Korea has ordered its troops to be vigilant but said that doesn't mean they're being moved.

North Korea announced Monday that Kim had died of a massive heart attack two days earlier at the age of 69 — although some accounts put his age at 70.

Lawmaker Kwon said the NIS told the parliamentary intelligence committee, which he chairs, that senior military officials have pledged allegiance to Kim Jong Un, and that more security officers have been deployed in major cities across the country. Intelligence officials declined to comment.

The NIS also gave its predictions on how the North's government will work during the transition of power to the younger Kim.

The NIS told lawmakers that an ad hoc committee headed by the Workers' Party's Central Military Commission, in which the younger Kim is a vice chairman, is expected to handle key state affairs before Kim Jong Un formally becomes the country's leader, according to lawmaker Hwang Jin-ha who also attended the closed-door briefing.

Intelligence officials didn't describe how they got the information, he said.

The NIS predicts Kim Jong Un's aunt Kim Kyong Hui, a key Workers' Party official, and Jang Song Thaek, a vice chairman of the powerful National Defense Commission, will play larger roles supporting the heir, the lawmaker said.

A South Korean Defense Ministry official handling North Korea affairs, however, said there is too little information to make a confident judgment about where North Korea's power transition is heading.

According to a Defense Ministry report submitted to parliament Tuesday and leaked to reporters by South Korean lawmakers, some North Korean units conducting winter drills returned to base following the news of Kim Jong Il's death. It also said official mourning events have begun in a number of front-line bases across the country. The report did not elaborate.

Unification Ministry spokesman Choi Boh-seon said in a briefing Wednesday that the government hasn't spotted particular troop movements in North Korea. Military officials said they also haven't noticed serious developments.

Initial indications coming out of North Korea suggest the power transition to the son has been moving forward.

The young Kim led a procession of senior officials Tuesday in a viewing of Kim Jong Il's body, which is being displayed in a glass coffin near that of Kim Il Sung.

Publicly presiding over the funeral proceedings was an important milestone for Kim's son, strengthening his image as the country's political face at home and abroad.

According to official media, more than five million North Koreans have gathered at monuments and memorials in the capital since the death of Kim Jong Il at what state media said was the age of 69 — though some accounts say he was 70.

Hundreds of thousands visited monuments around the city within hours of the official announcement that Kim had died.

The North has declared an 11-day period of mourning that will culminate in his state funeral and a national memorial service on Dec. 28-29.

The propaganda leaflets sent into North Korea on Wednesday by South Korean activists are a sore point with the North, which sees them as propaganda warfare. North Korea has previously warned it would fire at South Korea in response to such actions. There were no immediate reports of retaliation, however. South Korean activists vowed to continue sending leaflets.

___

Reporting from Pyongyang by Associated Press Television News senior video journalist Rafael Wober and reporter Pak Won Il. AP writers Foster Klug, Hyung-jin Kim, Sam Kim and Eric Talmadge in Seoul, AP photographers Andy Wong in Dandong, China, and Lee Jin-man in Imjingak, South Korea, as well as Korea bureau chief Jean H. Lee, contributed to this story.

Copyright 2011 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

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--  kenneth w. harrow  distinguished professor of english michigan state university department of english east lansing, mi 48824-1036 ph. 517 803 8839 harrow@msu.edu

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