Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Okigbo - Mythmaker & towncrier at Heavensgate

Oga Chidi,
It's funny, but Prof. Harrow's statement was the whole point of my etymological inquiry from the beginning. In other words, at what point and under what conventional condition did plagiarism became wrong when scholars originally considered it a pragmatic means of spreading concepts and notions.

If that statement is important to you, why are we then arguing? My own point is simply that a historical analysis of the term may shed light on its shiftiness; yours seems to be that the term is plain wrong even when some used to consider it correct practice.

I didn't address it because that had been my argument all along.

Magana yakare. Ko baa ka ba?


Adeshina Afolayan
*smiling in anticipation*

Last postscript: I was trained to beware of absolute statement like 'plagiarism is plain wrong' without any extenuating circumstance to interject that absolutism.

Sent from my BlackBerry wireless device from MTN

-----Original Message-----
From: Chidi Anthony Opara <chidi.opara@gmail.com>
Sender: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 06:41:01
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series<usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Reply-To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Okigbo - Mythmaker & towncrier at Heavensgate

"I was thinking your last line was going to read 'the end does not
ALWAYS justify the means', leaving some margin of possibility. Again,
you lost the moment of criticality there. And that has been my point
since Okigbo resurrected on this forum."

----------Adeshina Afolayan


The end does not at anytime justify the means, meaning that the means
should be judged independent of the end at any time. Also the
reference to abortion is not necessary, I understand that there is
legal and illegal abortion, I have not heard of legal or illegal
plagiarism. Shina, I would like you to comment on the postscript I
posted(Professor Harrow's comment).

CAO.

On 16 Mar, 10:58, shina73_1...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Oga Chidi,
> I was thinking your last line was going to read 'the end does not ALWAYS justify the means', leaving some margin of possibility. Again, you lost the moment of criticality there. And that has been my point since Okigbo resurrected on this forum.
>
> As I followed the thread, it occurred to me that plagiarism should be inducted into the conceptual hall of fame (or infamy) of 'essentially contested concepts' whose history ensure they defy any neat universal characterisation, except in context.
>
> The simple point of the problem, as I think Ikhide or someone else wrote earlier, is that too many ideas have entered the artistic, and even the academic, common for plagiarism there to stick as a neat accusation. The case of music is glaring. Just as the case of academic plagiarism is equally glaring on the negative side. If, as Ikhide wrote, I used 'How did Uncle Momoh die? He died' (referencing unconsciously a phrase he 'borrowed' from James Hadley Chase many century ago, did he plagiarise?
>
> Early last year, I was shocked to see one of my essays under another person's 'ownership' on the net. The guy's 'creative ingenuity' was only limited to the title. The first word in the abstract to the last in the reference were all mine. Of course, I was livid with anger. And I got right to work (without taking the legality to its logical conclusion, though).
>
> Yet, like Olayinka made clear, I would also have been amazed if I see a truly ingenious and creative adaptation of my poem. I suspect you might too. Even my earlier statement of 'the words were all mine' should be taken with caution too.
>
> So: May be plagiarism looks seriously bad in academic matters (when it is taken beyond boundary) than in the artistic. It is that possibility of conceptual shiftiness that interests me, and not the attempt at hanging an absolute albatross around the neck of the plagiarist-positive or negative.
>
> Is abortion absolutely wrong? Does convention not have a role to play in moral judgements? You have dragged plagiarism into the murky realm of the moral, and so you must be responsible for what you meet there. And you are not allowed to bring the 'motor park mentality' to your rescue!
>
> Adeshina Afolayan
>
> Postscript: What happens to me if 'the murky realm of the moral' or 'the absolute albatross around the neck of the plagiarist' has been written somewhere else by someone else without my awareness? Does that not make it interesting?
>
> Sent from my BlackBerry wireless device from MTN
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chidi Anthony Opara <chidi.op...@gmail.com>
>
> Sender: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
> Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 01:15:46
> To: USA Africa Dialogue Series<usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
> Reply-To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Okigbo - Mythmaker & towncrier at Heavensgate
>
> "It has been suggested that there were plagiarists who successfully
> used the method. Didn't you read Obododimma's post? "Prior to the
> Enlightenment, plagiarism was useful in aiding the distribution of
> ideas. An English poet could appropriate and translate a sonnet from
> Petrarch and call it his own. In accordance with the classical
> aesthetic of imitation, this was perfectly acceptable practice."
>
> So, if it served that function then, was that equally bad?
>
> -------Adeshina Afolayan.
>
> Shina,
> Almost every illegality can be excused on the grounds that it has some
> positive sides; the pick-pocket who takes care of aged parents, the
> armed robber who sees siblings through schools, the stealing
> politician who sets up a scholarship awarding foundation. I can go on,
> but let me keep it simple as usual; "the end does not justify the
> means".
>
> CAO.
>
> Post Script:
> "In fact, it might be very interesting to ask when the notion of
> wrongness attached to plagiarism came into existence, when
> copyrighting and its implications became applicable to authors."
>
> ----------Professor Ken Harrow.
>
> On 15 Mar, 17:34, shina73_1...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > Oga Chidi,
> > No vex now! We are all involved in an attempt to outline a perspective on something that is truly baffling (and not a situation of impressing colleagues, haba!).
>
> > It has been suggested that there were plagiarists who successfully used the method. Didn't you read Obododimma's post?
>
> > "Prior to the Enlightenment, plagiarism was useful in aiding the distribution of ideas. An English poet could appropriate and translate a sonnet from Petrarch and call it his own. In accordance with the classical aesthetic of imitation, this was perfectly acceptable practice."
>
> > So, if it served that function then, was that equally bad? Of course, some things are really either good or bad (a really bad one is ascribing some wrong intention to a fellow forumite who was only attempting to further the conceptual search for a shifting notion). I disagree however that plagiarism is one of those white/black issues.
>
> > That should be clear from the fact that we have yet to reach a tidy conclusion on the Okigbo phenomenon.
>
> > And there you have it!
>
> > Adeshina Afolayan
>
> > Sent from my BlackBerry wireless device from MTN
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Chidi Anthony Opara <chidi.op...@gmail.com>
>
> > Sender: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
> > Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 02:02:39
> > To: USA Africa Dialogue Series<usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
> > Reply-To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
> > Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Okigbo - Mythmaker & towncrier at Heavensgate
>
> > "Chidi's attempt to draw a white/black distinction is simplistic to
> > me. Plagiarism cannot just be explained away as an absolute sin. I am
> > seriously and conceptually perplexed though."
> > ---------Adeshina Afolayan.
>
> > Does it have to be complex to be right and/or make sense? Some matters
> > are simply right or wrong and plagiarism is one of them. You may be
> > confusing being simple with being simplistic. I  have no scholar
> > colleagues and students to impress. You are however, entitled to your
> > opinion.
>
> > CAO.
>
> > On 14 Mar, 21:45, shina73_1...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > "Shouldn't we shift the
> > > debate from outrage to the wider significance and presence of
> > > plagiarism in canonical literature?"
>
> > > Obododimma
>
> > > Given the deep level of controversy around Okigbo's 'borrowing'/'stealing' so far and the problematic and shifting conceptual boundary of plagiarism especially in our own time, it would seem to me that the suggestion above, though interesting, is putting the cart before the horse.
>
> > > Before this post, I tried getting at the etymology of plagiarism without much success. I was wondering if its early use, circa 1620, would throw some conceptual light on how its meaning has shifted from a pragmatic practice to a perjorative one.
>
> > > Most dictionaries privilege the 'stealing' assumption. Merriam-Webster traces its origin to the Latin 'plagiarius' meaning kidnapper (derived from 'plagium' or netting of game; and further from 'plaga' or trap). 'Plagiary' was originally used in 1716 (What happened in the 96 years in between?). Ah!
>
> > > Well, what does this tell us? Lexical definitions often conceal philosophical complexities! Something conceptual must have happened to lead us through this convoluted etymology from seemingly negative origin through a fruitful borrowing to rejuvenation of the original sin. Is there a philologist in the forum?
>
> > > Chidi's attempt to draw a white/black distinction is simplistic to me. Plagiarism cannot just be explained away as an absolute sin. I am seriously and conceptually perplexed though.
>
> > > Maybe Prof. Harrow's suggestion of intertexuality could bridge this problem between the positive and negative dimensions of plagiarism.
>
> > > Adeshina Afolayan
>
> > > Sent from my BlackBerry wireless device from MTN
>
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Obododimma Oha <obodo...@gmail.com>
>
> > > Sender: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
> > > Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:40:16
> > > To: <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
> > > Reply-To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
> > > Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Okigbo - Mythmaker & towncrier at Heavensgate
>
> > > I do NOT endorse plagiarism. It is objectionable and infuriating, yes.
> > > But with the ongoing debate, I have had to return to deeper issues in
> > > the discourse on plagiarism and have found the arguments of the
> > > Critical Art Ensemble (in "Utopian Plagiarism, Hypertextuality, and
> > > Electronic Cultural Production") really engaging: "Prior to the
> > > Enlightenment, plagiarism was useful in aiding the distribution of
> > > ideas. An English poet could appropriate and translate a sonnet from
> > > Petrarch and call it his own. In accordance with the classical
> > > aesthetic of imitation, this was perfectly acceptable practice. The
> > > real value of this activity rested less in the reinforcement of
> > > classical aesthetics than in the distribution of work to areas where
> > > otherwise it probably would not have appeared. The works of English
> > > plagiarists, such as Chaucer, Shakespeare, Spenser, Sterne, Coleridge,
> > > and De Quincey, are still a vital part of the English heritage, and
> > > remain in the literary canon to this day."Shouldn't we shift the
> > > debate from outrage to the wider significance and presence of
> > > plagiarism in canonical literature?
> > > -Obododimma
>
> > > On 3/4/13, kenneth harrow <har...@msu.edu> wrote:
> > > > let's talk examples.
> > > > for instance:
>
> > > > A while back on Next, the poet Chimalum Nwankwo offered evidence that
> > > > Okigbo had plagiarized some of his poems. He quoted Carl Sandberg's
> > > > poem, For You: /"The peace of great doors be for you./Wait at the knobs,
> > > > at the panel oblongs./Wait for the great hinges.//The peace of great
> > > > churches be for you./Where the players of loft pipe organs/Practice old
>
> ...
>
> read more »

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