Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Niall Ferguson On John MaynardKeynes: WOW!

gloria
i like the way little boys will put their "bangalas" in key holes if
need be to get the pleasures they need. we now pigeonhole sexuality into
boxes with labels, give them definitions and labels as though desire
could be definitely identified as this or that. before this 18th c need
to classify and control, to police desires, there was what foucault
called sex at the edge of the fields (he was thinking in rural terms
where there were things like sheep around, or who knows what). later
freud wrote about fetishes where sexual desires could take anything as
their object of desire. he called that perverse, but it simply meant
that the socialized targets of sexual orientation were cultivated,
normalized, and ultimately policed as right or wrong, good or bad,
punishable or permitted.
ken

On 5/7/13 12:04 AM, Emeagwali, Gloria (History) wrote:
> "....but i wouldn't call them gay in a current sense of the term, which implies sexual
> orientation based on desire"
>
>
> Why not Ken? What was their sexual orientation based on?
>
> Include also Alexander the Great expansionist.
>
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> GE
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com [usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of kenneth harrow [harrow@msu.edu]
> Sent: Monday, May 06, 2013 2:29 PM
> To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Niall Ferguson On John MaynardKeynes: WOW!
>
> we need a classicist to give the definitive answer. my recollection, from long ago, is that he was corrupting them by drawing them toward philosophy rather than support of the state. i think older men-younger boys relations were common enough, but i wouldn't call them gay in a current sense of the term, which implies sexual orientation based on desire; maybe there was a bi culture, but i think foucault had it right when he said that it wasn't until the 18th c, and its policings, that what gay meant in the modern sense was developed.
> ken
> On 5/6/13 10:47 AM, Anunoby, Ogugua wrote:
>
> "Even though this homoerotic culture in ancient Greece is well known to scholarship, it seems to have been filtered out of the general image of the superlative achievement represented by ancient Greece.
>
> Oluwatoyin
>
> Interesting perspective. Socrates is believed to have been accused of impiety, worshipping new gods, corrupting the young, among others, tried; found guilty, and killed. Might it have been that the charge of "corrupting the young" was not unconnected with his homosexuality?
>
> oa
>
> From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> [mailto:usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Oluwatoyin Adepoju
> Sent: Monday, May 06, 2013 4:59 AM
> To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Niall Ferguson On John MaynardKeynes: WOW!
>
>
> The Wikipedia article on Keynes<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Maynard_Keynes> sums up his bisexuality under 'Personal Life'.
>
>
> Keynes attended Eton, an all male school then and now, a private school in England at a time when such schools were wholly or largely male. He also went to Cambridge at a time when it was wholly male, I think.
>
> These contexts, involving placing pre-pubescent and pubescent boys and men in all male environments at critical stages in the development of their sexual identities may have been central to the development of a homosexual culture among the students of these institutions, a culture which some took forward after graduation.
>
> This nexus of schooling and a male centred sexual culture seems to have been a part of English upper and middle class culture for centuries but does not seem to have gained the kind of sociological exposure it deserves.
>
> This culture might also have been influenced by gay/bisexual culture in ancient Greece, in which according to one account, in a period or periods of their history, the combination of physically erotic, affective and mental conjugation between men was a norm.
>
> In that context, sexual and larger cognitive relationship between an older and younger man were seen as valuable firms of mentorship.
>
> Although I have not read anything describing the near mythic Greek philosopher Socrates as engaged in such relationships, one one occasion in a Platonic Dialogue, Socrates seems to be shown describing a young man in a manner that suggests an erotic context shared between himself and other men, the way a man would describe an attractive woman to other men.
>
> Even though this homoerotic culture in ancient Greece is well known to scholarship, it seems to have been filtered out of the general image of the superlative achievement represented by ancient Greece.
>
> Wikipedia on Homosexuality in Ancient Greece<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Greece> and most explicitly in Pederasty in Ancient Greece<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty_in_ancient_Greece>, and Homosexuality in the Militaries of Ancient Greece<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_the_militaries_of_ancient_Greece> tells a most fascinating story.
>
> thanks
> toyin
> On Mon, May 6, 2013 at 12:06 AM, Abdul Bangura <theai@earthlink.net<mailto:theai@earthlink.net>> wrote:
> To be honest with you, Mwalimu Adepoju, this is all news to my ears/eyes.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Oluwatoyin Adepoju<mailto:ovadepoju@gmail.com>
> To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: 5/5/2013 5:40:38 PM
> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Niall Ferguson On John MaynardKeynes: WOW!
>
> I thought Keynes was bisexual.
>
> toyin
> On Sat, May 4, 2013 at 8:14 PM, Abdul Karim Bangura <theai@earthlink.net<mailto:theai@earthlink.net>> wrote:
> WOW! That is all I have to say.
>
> Harvard Professor apologizes for Keynes comments
>
> By MAE ANDERSON
> >From Associated Press
> May 04, 2013 2:36 PM EDT
>
>
> NEW YORK (AP) — Niall Ferguson, a Harvard history professor and author, is apologizing for saying economist John Maynard Keynes didn't care about the future because he was gay and had no children.
>
>
>
> Ferguson made the remarks on Thursday during a question-and-answer session after a prepared speech at the Altegris Strategic Investment conference in Carlsbad, Calif. Asked to comment about Keynes, he suggested that the British economist's philosophy was shaped by being homosexual and therefore childless.
>
>
>
> The remarks were reported by the website of Financial Advisor magazine and other online publications.
>
>
>
> On Saturday Ferguson acknowledged the remarks and said he never should have suggested Keynes' economic philosophy was inspired by his personal life. He said he deeply apologized.
>
> Copyright 2013 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
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> kenneth w. harrow
> faculty excellence advocate
> distinguished professor of english
> michigan state university
> department of english
> 619 red cedar road
> room C-614 wells hall
> east lansing, mi 48824
> ph. 517 803 8839
> harrow@msu.edu<mailto:harrow@msu.edu>
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--
kenneth w. harrow
faculty excellence advocate
distinguished professor of english
michigan state university
department of english
619 red cedar road
room C-614 wells hall
east lansing, mi 48824
ph. 517 803 8839
harrow@msu.edu

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