Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Niall Ferguson On John MaynardKeynes: WOW!

pablo
you must be thinking of sappho?
as for all this range of love and same sex/hetero, etc, it seems an odd thing to me to attribute "same" or "opposite" to the billions of humans who must occupy an infinity of different positions on the map of sexual identity.
we follow this need to categorize and organize, simplifying like children who need integers to add, whereas numbers can be real or imaginary. and what happens when you multiply two irrational numbers? or take e to the i pi?

what would sappho say?
here is her Hymn to Aphrodite

Iridescent-throned Aphrodite, deathless

Child of Zeus, wile-weaver, I now implore you,

Don't--I beg you, Lady--with pains and torments

Crush down my spirit,

But before if ever you've heard my pleadings

Then return, as once when you left your father's

Golden house; you yoked to your shining car your

Wing-whirring sparrows;

Skimming down the paths of the sky's bright ether

On they brought you over the earth's black bosom,

Swiftly--then you stood with a sudden brilliance,

Goddess, before me;

Deathless face alight with your smile, you asked me

What I suffered, who was my cause of anguish,

What would ease the pain of my frantic mind, and

Why had I called you

To my side: "And whom should Persuasion summon

Here, to soothe the sting of your passion this time?

Who is now abusing you, Sappho? Who is

Treating you cruelly?

Now she runs away, but she'll soon pursue you;

Gifts she now rejects--soon enough she'll give them;

Now she doesn't love you, but soon her heart will

Burn, though unwilling."

Come to me once more, and abate my torment;

Take the bitter care from my mind, and give me

All I long for; Lady, in all my battles

Fight as my comrade.

ken

 

On 5/8/13 11:32 PM, Pablo Idahosa wrote:

Yes, Ken, but you don't need to invoke Foucault or Mugabe's of Biya's invention of compounded disciplining Victorian tradition. There are many traditions for which homosexuality is haram, even when it is tolerated outta sight, or tolerated only amongst certain groups.

 On Socrates/Plato (and I will here defer to the Hellocentrists and Euro-classicists—but they were not southern Baptists, for sure) whom I studied many years ago as a neophyte double major in philosophy and economics, I recall the symposium being about male bonding, in the absence of women of course-- that was what symposiums were about, with lots of boozing men (no doubt to probably diminish inhibition) and for whom, women were to procreate with, but who were not their equals when it came to "real" love (although I understand that erotic wisdom or platonic love has its origins in a women philosopher, whose name eludes me).  The apex of love/Eros, it's most elevated expression, was about beauty as a form, not necessarily in the individual and therefore about sex; it was also about love and community, perhaps a community of aristocratic men, who at that time had the ability to constrain their desire, not always to give into it But then people don't need Plato, or hired, money-seeking philosopher of the right like Ferguson, to tell us why they are attracted to the same sex, do they?

On 2013-05-07, at 8:33 AM, kenneth harrow <harrow@msu.edu> wrote:

dear ayo
this is what i was trying to say (albeit not as elegantly as you put it)
i would add that it isn't so much a question of judeo-christian morality as such, if foucault is right, but rather its incorporation into the "disciplining" of society with the rise of 18th c bourgeois morality. to be sure, that morality grounded itself in judeo-christian terms, but its application became institutionalized into penal codes that defined what was now to be punished, controlled, and condemned.
that's why a ruler like biya or mugabe can evoke african traditions and use them to crush gay men or women.
ken

On 5/7/13 7:49 AM, Ayo Obe wrote:

Remember when the blockbuster film Alexander came out and the filmmakers and US commentators were agonising over how to handle "the gay thing".  It sounded so anachronistic because it is in fact an anachronism to apply the concept of being gay as we understand (or do not understand) it today to a world where there had been no moral issue /per se/ about men having sex with men, nor did it carry any additional baggage of weakness.

It's almost impossible for us in some parts of today's world to step back into a time not permeated by Judaeo-Christian morality.  As someone said (discussing "Rome" the HBO series), "They are so similar to us, yet so different!"

But meanwhile, back - via Socrates - to John Maynard Keynes ...

Ayo
I invite you to follow me on Twitter @naijama

On 7 May 2013, at 05:04, "Emeagwali, Gloria (History)" <emeagwali@mail.ccsu.edu <mailto:emeagwali@mail.ccsu.edu>> wrote:

"....but i wouldn't call them gay in a current sense of the term, which implies sexual
orientation based on desire"


Why not Ken? What was their sexual orientation based on?

Include also Alexander the Great expansionist.





GE



________________________________
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <mailto:usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> [usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <mailto:usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>] On Behalf Of kenneth harrow [harrow@msu.edu <mailto:harrow@msu.edu>]
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2013 2:29 PM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <mailto:usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Niall Ferguson On John MaynardKeynes: WOW!

we need a classicist to give the definitive answer. my recollection, from long ago, is that he was corrupting them by drawing them toward philosophy rather than support of the state. i think older men-younger boys relations were common enough, but i wouldn't call them gay in a current sense of the term, which implies sexual orientation based on desire; maybe there was a bi culture, but i think foucault had it right when he said that it wasn't until the 18th c, and its policings, that what gay meant in the modern sense was developed.
ken
On 5/6/13 10:47 AM, Anunoby, Ogugua wrote:

"Even though this  homoerotic culture in ancient Greece is well known to scholarship, it seems to have been filtered out of the general image of the superlative achievement represented by ancient Greece.

Oluwatoyin

Interesting perspective. Socrates is believed to have been accused of impiety, worshipping new gods, corrupting the young, among others, tried; found guilty, and killed. Might it have been that the charge of "corrupting the young" was not unconnected with his homosexuality?

oa

From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <mailto:usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com><mailto:usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> [mailto:usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Oluwatoyin Adepoju
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2013 4:59 AM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <mailto:usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com><mailto:usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Niall Ferguson On John MaynardKeynes: WOW!


The Wikipedia article on Keynes<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Maynard_Keynes> sums up his bisexuality under 'Personal Life'.


Keynes attended Eton, an all male school then and now, a private school in England at a time when such schools were wholly or largely male. He also went to Cambridge at a time when it was wholly male, I think.

These contexts, involving placing pre-pubescent and pubescent boys and men in all male environments at critical stages in the development of their sexual identities may  have been central to the development of a homosexual culture among the students of these institutions, a culture which some took forward after graduation.

This nexus of schooling and a  male centred sexual culture seems to have been a part of English upper and middle class culture for centuries but does not seem to have gained the kind of sociological exposure it deserves.

This culture might also have been influenced by gay/bisexual culture in ancient Greece, in which  according to one account, in a period or periods of their history, the combination of physically erotic, affective and mental conjugation between men was a norm.

In that context, sexual and larger cognitive relationship between an older and younger man were seen as valuable firms of mentorship.

Although I have not read anything describing the near mythic Greek philosopher Socrates  as engaged in such relationships, one one occasion in a Platonic Dialogue, Socrates seems to be shown describing  a young man in a manner that suggests an erotic context shared between himself and other men, the way a man would describe an attractive  woman to other men.

Even though this  homoerotic culture in ancient Greece is well known to scholarship, it seems to have been filtered out of the general image of the superlative achievement represented by ancient Greece.

Wikipedia on  Homosexuality in Ancient Greece<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Greece> and most explicitly in Pederasty in Ancient Greece<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty_in_ancient_Greece>,  and Homosexuality in the Militaries of Ancient Greece<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_the_militaries_of_ancient_Greece>  tells a most fascinating story.

thanks
toyin
On Mon, May 6, 2013 at 12:06 AM, Abdul Bangura <theai@earthlink.net <mailto:theai@earthlink.net><mailto:theai@earthlink.net>> wrote:
To be honest with you, Mwalimu Adepoju, this is all news to my ears/eyes.
----- Original Message -----
From: Oluwatoyin Adepoju<mailto:ovadepoju@gmail.com>
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <mailto:usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com><mailto:usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Sent: 5/5/2013 5:40:38 PM
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Niall Ferguson On John MaynardKeynes: WOW!

I thought Keynes was bisexual.

toyin
On Sat, May 4, 2013 at 8:14 PM, Abdul Karim Bangura <theai@earthlink.net <mailto:theai@earthlink.net><mailto:theai@earthlink.net>> wrote:
WOW!  That is all I have to say.

Harvard Professor apologizes for Keynes comments

By MAE ANDERSON
From Associated Press
May 04, 2013 2:36 PM EDT


NEW YORK (AP) — Niall Ferguson, a Harvard history professor and author, is apologizing for saying economist John Maynard Keynes didn't care about the future because he was gay and had no children.



Ferguson made the remarks on Thursday during a question-and-answer session after a prepared speech at the Altegris Strategic Investment conference in Carlsbad, Calif. Asked to comment about Keynes, he suggested that the British economist's philosophy was shaped by being homosexual and therefore childless.



The remarks were reported by the website of Financial Advisor magazine and other online publications.



On Saturday Ferguson acknowledged the remarks and said he never should have suggested Keynes' economic philosophy was inspired by his personal life. He said he deeply apologized.

Copyright 2013 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "USA-Africa Dialogue Series" moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin.
For current archives, visit http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
For previous archives, visit http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com <mailto:USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com><mailto:USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com>
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue-
unsubscribe@googlegroups.com <mailto:unsubscribe@googlegroups.com><mailto:unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com <mailto:usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com><mailto:usaafricadialogue%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com <mailto:2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com>>.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.



--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "USA-Africa Dialogue Series" moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin.
For current archives, visit http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
For previous archives, visit http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com <mailto:USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com><mailto:USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com>
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue-
unsubscribe@googlegroups.com <mailto:unsubscribe@googlegroups.com><mailto:unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com <mailto:usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com><mailto:usaafricadialogue%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com <mailto:2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com>>.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "USA-Africa Dialogue Series" moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin.
For current archives, visit http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
For previous archives, visit http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com <mailto:USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com><mailto:USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com>
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue-
unsubscribe@googlegroups.com <mailto:unsubscribe@googlegroups.com><mailto:unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com <mailto:usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com><mailto:usaafricadialogue%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com <mailto:2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com>>.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.



--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "USA-Africa Dialogue Series" moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin.
For current archives, visit http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
For previous archives, visit http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com <mailto:USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com><mailto:USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com>
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue-
unsubscribe@googlegroups.com <mailto:unsubscribe@googlegroups.com><mailto:unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com <mailto:usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com><mailto:usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "USA-Africa Dialogue Series" moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin.
For current archives, visit http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
For previous archives, visit http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com <mailto:USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com><mailto:USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com>
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue-
unsubscribe@googlegroups.com <mailto:unsubscribe@googlegroups.com><mailto:unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com <mailto:usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com><mailto:usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.




--
kenneth w. harrow
faculty excellence advocate
distinguished professor of english
michigan state university
department of english
619 red cedar road
room C-614 wells hall
east lansing, mi 48824
ph. 517 803 8839
harrow@msu.edu <mailto:harrow@msu.edu><mailto:harrow@msu.edu>

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "USA-Africa Dialogue Series" moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin.
For current archives, visit http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
For previous archives, visit http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com <mailto:USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com>
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue-
unsubscribe@googlegroups.com <mailto:unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com <mailto:usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.



--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "USA-Africa Dialogue Series" moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin.
 For current archives, visit http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
 For previous archives, visit http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
 To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com <mailto:USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com>
 To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue-
unsubscribe@googlegroups.com <mailto:unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com <mailto:usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "USA-Africa Dialogue Series" moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin.
For current archives, visit http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
For previous archives, visit http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue-
unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

--
kenneth w. harrow
faculty excellence advocate
distinguished professor of english
michigan state university
department of english
619 red cedar road
room C-614 wells hall
east lansing, mi 48824
ph. 517 803 8839
harrow@msu.edu

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "USA-Africa Dialogue Series" moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin.
 For current archives, visit http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
 For previous archives, visit  http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
 To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
 To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue-       unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
--- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "USA-Africa Dialogue Series" moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin.
For current archives, visit http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
For previous archives, visit http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue-
unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 

--   kenneth w. harrow   faculty excellence advocate  distinguished professor of english  michigan state university  department of english  619 red cedar road  room C-614 wells hall  east lansing, mi 48824  ph. 517 803 8839  harrow@msu.edu