'The question I ask you is: the fact that boko haram as a group employed violent tactics should mean that Nigeria, as nation state, should kill everything breathing in the sight in the name of searching for insurgents? Should that mean that any captured insurgent should not be put through formal judicial process? See, what goes round comes round. JF Kenedy said: "InJustice anywhere is threat to justice everywhere".
My response- how do you justify this point-
'Nigeria, as nation state, should kill everything breathing in the sight in the name of searching for insurgents?'
How do you know you are correct?
Second point-
'A man, nay an academic, who bases his entire hypothesis on an article, is an intellectual neophyte.'
Response- Salkida's account is corroborated the UN agency IRIN.
I presented that information on these fora last year.
Will need to dig it out.
Can easily get further corroboration now that I know the groups had not become known as Boko Haram as at the time of the incident.
On the post election violence, Buahari is culpable by association because of the inciting character of his remarks before the election. The committee that investigated the violence stated that his comments could have planted ideas that led to the violence.
Bro, you have to try harder.
toyin
Toyin Adepoju,
A man, nay an academic, who bases his entire hypothesis on an article, is an intellectual neophyte.
Just a digression. On April 22, 2011, Reuben Abati wrote an article in his Guardian friday column. Therein, he alluded to GMB as the author of the post-election violence that broke out in the North. Gullible folks like yourself (I am sure) had gone to town with that penned lunacy, though the writer had no verifiable evidence to support his claim! GMB had since sued Guardian and Abati; the two persons have been searching endlessly for evidence to cover their idiocy.
The question I ask you is: the fact that boko haram as a group employed violent tactics should mean that Nigeria, as nation state, should kill everything breathing in the sight in the name of searching for insurgents? Should that mean that any captured insurgent should not be put through formal judicial process? See, what goes round comes round. JF Kenedy said: "InJustice anywhere is threat to justice everywhere"
This is exactly what Gen Victor Malu did not understand as Chief of Army Staff in Obj's govt. He deployed soldiers to invade Odi. He did not care because his ancestral home is far from there. But not too long afterwards, the same injustice by the same govt was extended to his kith and kin in Zaki Biam. Of course, he hollered and no one answered him.
Those, whose ancestral homes and brothers/sisters have been extra-judicially destroyed by Nigerian soldiers, have been wailing and calling for justice. You may justify it by saying Boko haram started it. But remember, what goes round comes round. You are free to continue gloating in this insensitivity. It is your choice.
Rotimi.Sent from my BlackBerry wireless device from MTNFrom: Oluwatoyin Adepoju <ovadepoju@gmail.com>Date: Wed, 1 May 2013 10:05:34 +0100ReplyTo: NIgerianWorldForum@yahoogroups.comCc: <stevek941@yahoo.com><stevek941@yahoo.com>; Ola Kassim<olakassimmd@aol.com>; Raayiriga@yahoogroups.com<Raayiriga@yahoogroups.com>; Yan Arewa<yanarewa@yahoogroups.com>; usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com<usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>; talkhard@yahoogroups.com<talkhard@yahoogroups.com>; rafsanjanikano@gmail.com<rafsanjanikano@gmail.com>; Joan Oviawe<joanoviawe@gmail.com>Subject: Re: [NIgerianWorldForum] RE: BAGA MASSACRE: CISLAC CONDEMNS MILITARY BRUTALITY ON INNOCENT CIVILIANSRotimi Fashakin continues to reproduce falsehood on this subject even when the facts are available for him to address.
Lets take the falsehoods one by one:
FALSE:
'Boko Haram started as a socio-religious group that was a kind of puritanical group. Initially, they were going after muslims clerics, who in their opinion were not pure muslims. We read of early morning raids in mosques at that time. They forbade themselves from seeking western education. What did the police do? They attacked them.
FACT:
Boko Haram was inherently murderous from their formation. They responded with murderous threats when the Borno state govt sent Muslim clerics to reason with them, threatening to slaughter the clerics.
A fiormative group from which Boko Haram split even opened the war against Nigeria through two separate attacks on a police station and a town where many lives were lost.
The Borno state govt tried to have them leave the 'state' they had constructed in Borno. They responded with sophisticated firepower.
Information source: Ahmad Salikda Genesis and consequences of Boko Haram crisis.
SELF CONTRADICTION:
Fashakin states" Initially, they were going after muslims clerics, who in their opinion were not pure muslims. We read of early morning raids in mosques at that time."
What did Boko Haram do in "going after muslims clerics, who in their opinion were not pure muslims [through]early morning raids in mosques at that time."
Were they raiding the mosques to invite the clerics for debate?
What is a raid, a peaceful or forceful, invasive activity?
How can a person who contrdicts himself in such basic reporting and analysis now state that "Many of the commentaries I have been reading -even from respected academics- are not deep at all. We do not show any understanding of the issues".?
What is wrong with Fashakin's relationship with this matter? It is disturbing. Na wa o.
NOT WORTHY OF BEING GLORIFIED BY BEING DESCRIBED AS EVEN FALSE:
Equating the honest and peaceful Amish, with the hypocritical and murderous Islamic terrorists Boko Haram who, in a quest to evangelise Nigeria into a Muslim state, have initiated a campaign of mass murder and sheer terror, bombing churches and machine gunning escaping worshipers, on Christmas and Sundays, bombing police stations, army barracks, churches, and schools, massacring WAEC students by slitting their throats, assassinating anyone who informs against them and killing or attempting Northern Nigerian leaders.
Anybody equating the Amish and Boko Haram is doing something evil.
Amish dont use any modern technology. Boko Haram, in its grand stupidity, bans Western education but uses some of the most sophisticated products of Western education in its campaign of terror. This suggests that they want power to control and dominate people, not genuine social restructuring.
Anybody equating Amish and Boko Haram along such lines needs to be look carefully at their reasoning processes.
How did you confirm this?:
'But it is abominable for JTF soldiers to go from house to house, searching for Boko-haram and killing every unarmed youth in sight!'
The very height of what I dont want to give the evil name it deserves:
"It is my opinion that the police men that killed mohammed Yussuf and the other youths (which Al-Jazeera showed us) must be tried for murder. If found guilty, they should be killed at the very spot where they did the first killing."
After the absolute horror Boko Haram has inflicted on this nation, someone is still trying to appease the terrorists?
Salkida puts the Yusuf murder in context in terms of ycle of inhumanity unleashed by Boko Haram:
"Unfortunately, late Yusuf's teachings that caused crisis and death of hundreds of our gallant security agents and made it inhuman for people like Yusuf to survive, contradicts not only Islam which he claims to be preaching to his followers but his very existence.
I saw when members of the sect slaughtered a police sergeant, L. Adamu. He pleaded with them that he was never against them and said he was a fellow Muslim but yet they slaughtered him like a goat.
Was this the reason why the police and military summarily executed the suspected sect members in the same manner the sect did to their colleagues?":
I would have declared Fashakin an enemy of Nigeria but I wont, so as not to fall into the trap of branding even those whose ideas are against the nation as enemies, even though their primary problem could be delusion.
We must be on the alert, however, to counter ideologies that amount to selling the country and its citizens to terrorists in the name of a distorted sense of justice, in the case of Fashakin, based on clear, easily verifiable falsehoods.
thanks
toyinOn Wed, May 1, 2013 at 8:29 AM, rotimi Fashakin <rotfash@yahoo.com> wrote:
Dr Joe Igietseme,
Methinks that the same perspicacious treatment you give to work-related issues -which has ennobled you into the status of a renowned Bacteriologist- is exactly what you are expected to do with this issue!
Boko Haram started as a socio-religious group that was a kind of puritanical group. Initially, they were going after muslims clerics, who in their opinion were not pure muslims. We read of early morning raids in mosques at that time. They forbade themselves from seeking western education. What did the police do? They attacked them
Is there a parallel in the US?
Of course, the Amish people of Lancaster, PA. They started as a puritanical religious group in Europe and later became a socio-religious group (in the US) that loathes modern comfort of life. They do not inter-marry, ride automobiles, use electricity and seek formal education beyond 8th grade. The US government did not attack them but rather, instituted a law suit. In 1972, the US supreme Court forbade anyone from interfering with the decision of the group as part of their fundamental rights. They have found a way to integrate the Amish people. In 1985, I ate in an Amish restaurant. If you go to Lancaster, PA today, do not be surprised that the grocery shop you are in may be owned by Amish people.
As we speak, they still ride their horse-driven carts; their pumps are powered by the wind. Nobody has disturbed them. That is the way of civility.
I just wonder what we probably missed as a Nation.
Last year, we came to US for my son's MBA graduation and he opted for a Naija restaurant in Queens, NY. I saw as part of their menu, suya Obalende. Of course, that gave me some nostalgic feeling. I wondered aloud what would have happened if the yorubas in lagos had shown immense hostility to the Hausa/fulani settling in Obalende many years ago, would there ever be anything called 'suya obalende'?
Let the truth be told: we (as a Nation) goofed in our initial handling of the Boko -haram issue. Now it has snowballed into a big calamity. We are now hearing that they desire an Islamic state. But that was not the initial objective of the group. Could they have been infiltrated by terror organisations of this world, in the course of their struggle with the Nigerian authority? May be, Yes!
How do we move forward?
If Boko haram insurgents are killed in their shoot-out with JTF soldiers, that is OK. But it is abominable for JTF soldiers to go from house to house, searching for Boko-haram and killing every unarmed youth in sight!
It is equally reprehensible for the Nigerian security forces to kill extra-judicially any captured Boko-haram operative, just like their leader (Mohammed Yussuf). The way of civility is to try them in our Courts!
It is my opinion that the police men that killed mohammed Yussuf and the other youths (which Al-Jazeera showed us) must be tried for murder. If found guilty, they should be killed at the very spot where they did the first killing.
I have told this story before but, because of its relevance to this case, would be willing to tell it again.
The late General MB Haladu told me (whilst being the Commandant of NASI, jaji where I did my youth service). He commanded a small unit during the civil war. After the war, two soldiers from his unit killed two Nigerians of Igbo extraction. When asked, the murderous two-some averred that the victims were Biafrans! So Gen Haladu set up a court-martial which found them guilty. The Kano-born General then ordered the firing squad be set up at the very spot where the killing was done. That was it. Justice had been done.
I was in a prayer meeting in Akure (organised by Gen Gowon) on June 6, 1998(two days before Abacha's death). Gowon told us that we should thank God for the nation that the people they fought did not resort to guerrilla warfare instead of surrendering. That was very instructive!
Many of the commentaries I have been reading -even from respected academics- are not deep at all. We do not show any understanding of the issues.
Just my two-kobo contribution!
Rotimi.Sent from my BlackBerry wireless device from MTNFrom: "Igietseme, Joseph (CDC/OID/NCEZID)" <jigietseme@cdc.gov>Date: Wed, 1 May 2013 00:22:57 +0000ReplyTo: NIgerianWorldForum@yahoogroups.comSubject: [NIgerianWorldForum] RE: BAGA MASSACRE: CISLAC CONDEMNS MILITARY BRUTALITY ON INNOCENT CIVILIANS
Stevek,
Don't you think that most people will consider it the appropriate Rule of Law enforcement to use adequate Police or military action to stop terrorists and protect the majority of citizens from mindless individual or group's terrors? I think some of us should go find out how these issues have been handled in the most developed/ civilized societies that we all look up to for global best practices in democratic practices, civil liberties and public safety.
Go find out what happened to the Dravidian sect in Waco TX, when it became necessary to hunt down the terror snipers in DC, Boston bombers etc in USA! It is IMPORTANT for us realize that the consideration of "due process" is secondary to the "immediate response" to any mindless terror threat to lives and public properties, such as what we have with Boko Haram; BH members are not fighting any legitimate cause that meet the human rights defined by the United Nations or embraced by any decent, civilized modern society! Their ancestral land is not occupied; they have not been denied the rights to worship as they choose or like; they are not being forced to do anything! Rather, this religious sect wants to impose its doctrine on the rest of society; and the members use killing of innocent people, destructions and intimidations as their tactics; What else constitutes a threat to public safety, human rights and senseless menace to a society in a desperate need for a peaceful polity to grow its democracy, build her functional institutions and advance scientifically and technologically? Where is the room for "due process" in a situation where citizens are being terrorized, innocent lives are being mindlessly terminated and property destructions range in the billions? There is no serious society that discusses "due process" under such a climate.
In the apt words of US President Harry Truman: "Unusual problems require uncommon solutions"! Take care. JUI
----------------------------------------- Original Message -------------------------------------------------------------
From: Stevek
Date: 4/30/2013 1:46 PM
To: OlaKassimMD@aol.com;NIgerianWorldForum@yahoogroups.com;naijaintellects@googlegroups.com;usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com;rafsanjanikano@gmail.com;
Cc: yanarewa@yahoogroups.com;Raayiriga@yahoogroups.com;nigerianid@yahoogroups.com;nigeriansncanada@yahoogroups.com;
Subject: Re: NigerianID | Re: [NIgerianWorldForum] RE: BAGA MASSACRE: CISLAC CONDEMNS MILITARY BRUTALITY ON INNOCENT CIVILIANSThat's what I thought. That NIDO thing again.
You guys amaze me.
Both of you are staying put in your respective foreign stations because of the benefit of the Rule of Law and Due Process. But you don't care if this man that has been murdered is really guilty of anything or not.
Yet, you Olola, want homosexuals to be married without hinder because they have a right to. But this guy that is murderd without due process should because it makes you feel better that you are doing something against Boko Haram.
You are as logical and consistent as a square peg in a round hole!
due process of law
n. a fundamental principle of fairness in all legal matters, both civil and criminal, especially in the courts. All legal procedures set by statute and court practice, including notice of rights, must be followed for each individual so that no prejudicial or unequal treatment will result. While somewhat indefinite, the term can be gauged by its aim to safeguard both private and public rights against unfairness. The universal guarantee of due process is in the Fifth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, which provides "No person shall…be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law," and is applied to all states by the 14th Amendment. From this basic principle flows many legal decisions determining both procedural and substantive rights
I hope your turn doesn't come one day as you visit Nigeria!
As Africans, we have to learn to think or perish.
Stevek
Washington, DC, USA
A society of supine lambs breeds erect wolves. - Stevek
A wise man proportions his beliefs to the evidence - David Hume
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "OlaKassimMD@aol.com" <OlaKassimMD@aol.com>
To: NIgerianWorldForum@yahoogroups.com; naijaintellects@googlegroups.com; usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com; rafsanjanikano@gmail.com
Cc: yanarewa@yahoogroups.com; Raayiriga@yahoogroups.com; nigerianid@yahoogroups.com; nigeriansncanada@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 1:23 PM
Subject: NigerianID | Re: [NIgerianWorldForum] RE: BAGA MASSACRE: CISLAC CONDEMNS MILITARY BRUTALITY ON INNOCENT CIVILIANS
JUI:
I share your sentiments and frustrations--some Nigerians can indeed be emotional wretches as you referred to them.
When dog bites man no one complains but when man bites dog some start yelling massacre.
Are the lives of the Boko Haram terrorists worth more than those of their victims?.
How many innocent police officers and soldiers have been killed by the Boko Haram terrorists
in the past few years--without all the hue and cry from the holier than thou crowd?
How many hundreds of civilians have lost their lives and limbs at the hands of the
Boko Haram terrorists
The Boko Haram terrorists are like a cancerous sore in the nation. Serious ailments
need serious solutions!
As long as the federal authorities are taking the necessary care to avoid collateral civilian casualties
the government forces should be using whatever arsenals they have in their possession to eradicate
these miscreants.
Capturing the terrorists alive so they could be tried remains an option only in situations where the
federal forces would not risk their lives to ensure their capture.
Why are some people crying on behalf of terrorists--when they would rather die so they
could get their 72 virgins in heaven?
Why are some Nigerians playing politics with this serious matter?
Bye,
Ola
---- Original Message ----From: Igietseme, Joseph (CDC/OID/NCEZID) (CDC/OID/NCEZID) <jigietseme@cdc.gov>To: naijaintellects@googlegroups com <naijaintellects@googlegroups.com>; usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>; rafsanjanikano <rafsanjanikano@gmail.com>Cc: 'Yan Arewa' <yanarewa@yahoogroups.com>; Raayiriga <Raayiriga@yahoogroups.com>; 'NIgerianWorldForum@yahoogroups.com' <NIgerianWorldForum@yahoogroups.com>Sent: Tue, Apr 30, 2013 10:51 amSubject: [NIgerianWorldForum] RE: BAGA MASSACRE: CISLAC CONDEMNS MILITARY BRUTALITY ON INNOCENT CIVILIANS
Nigerians are just emotional wretches, a confused bunch of people who like to eat their cake and still hold it in their hands! Let them go see how laws are enforced around the world and they will realized that the baby gloves with which the Govt and people are handling Boko Haram is mainly responsible for why the situation is till not under control.
A bunch of mindless, rag-tag religionists cannot hold a nation to ransom and render citizens' live in a standstill; NO WAY!!! Take care. JUI
From: naijaintellects@googlegroups.com [mailto:naijaintellects@googlegroups.com?] On Behalf Of E. Obi
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 9:24 AM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com; naijaintellects@googlegroups com; rafsanjanikano@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [Naijaintellects] BAGA MASSACRE: CISLAC CONDEMNS MILITARY BRUTALITY ON INNOCENT CIVILIANS
After the Boston marathon bombings. ,the huge city of Boston was locked down and law enforcement agencies NOT the army meticulously searched for and apprehended the suspect without massacaring Bostonians.
EUO
Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android
From: Auwal Musa <rafsanjanikano@gmail.com>;
To: <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>; <naijaintellects@googlegroups.com>;
Subject: [Naijaintellects] BAGA MASSACRE: CISLAC CONDEMNS MILITARY BRUTALITY ON INNOCENT CIVILIANS
Sent: Tue, Apr 30, 2013 1:16:45 PM
--
BAGA MASSACRE: CISLAC CONDEMNS MILITARY BRUTALITY ON INNOCENT CIVILIANS
Civil Society Legislative Advocacy Centre (CISLAC) is worried about the continued violent violation of human rights by the security agencies on innocent Nigerians. The failure of this government to sincerely handle the insecurity and protect Nigerians from violence orchestrated by merchants of violence through Bombings, Armed robbery, kidnapping, communal clashes, political violence, ethno-religious violence and rape, helps to escalate impunity in Nigeria. This is in spite of the huge resources allocated for security sector in Nigeria which runs into trillions of naira, but yet Nigerians face more security challenges.
The recent development of mass massacre in Baga Town of Borno State is very unfortunate and in particular the alleged blocking access of relief materials to the affected victims days after the mayhem is inhumane and amount to siege. Relief workers are yet to be allowed access to Baga town days after the start of the military operations that left at least 200 people dead and so many homes burnt down. The residents said troops fired indiscriminately and set fires at homes in an apparent retaliation over the death of an officer.
CISLAC is of the opinion that there should be a better mutual understanding of cultures and systems between humanitarian aid workers and troops, so as to develop mutual respect. To do this, it would be useful to put in place a programme of strategic and operational discussions at all levels. National Emergency Management Agency (NEMA) and Red Cross have raised alarm over its inability to administer humanitarian response to victims which is a total contradiction to the United Nation Protocol on options for responding to such crises. Even in war situations, relief materials are distributed to alleviate the sufferings of the people. It is considered very unprofessional not to accept the opportunity to play a more dynamic role on how to coordinate and respond to emergencies which was created by it (the Army) in the first place.
CISLAC considers this a coercive military intervention, even though a military component of some kind has become increasingly necessary in most crises situation; it must not eclipse and violate rights of civilians. Major humanitarian actors from both within and outside Borno, and its aim at facilitating inter-agency analysis and decision making in response to humanitarian emergencies should not be an issue for negotiation considering that access to food is part of civilian protection.
It must be understood that continuous refusal to provide access humanitarian officials to the victims would further create an outbreak of diseases, hunger and deaths of women and children. We consider this siege an impunity which is unacceptable and a contradiction to the rules of engagement in such situation. We condemn this and call for investigation into the Baga saga.
CISLAC calls on relevant authorities to refrain from the current faceoff in Baga, not as an argument about the 'right to intervene' but about the 'responsibility to protect' and put in place a proper coordination of Humanitarian Affairs in the community to safeguard the lives of people.
CISLAC calls on the authorities to investigate these Army and Police officers involved in this heinous act and ensure that they are not allowed participating in any peacekeeping operations forthwith. These sorts of violations are parts of the image challenges that the nation had suffered over the years from the international community when some Nigerian Army officers were sent for international peace mission.
CISLAC therefore calls on the National Assembly to investigate the trillions of Naira allocated to the executives in the name of security votes, from all indications, insecurity is proving to be a lucrative business which financial appropriation is unaccounted for. This menace has gone on too long and needs to seriously be challenged.
Signed by
Auwal Musa Rafsanjani
Executive Director
CISLAC
Civil Society Legislative Advocacy Centre (CISLAC) is a non-governmental, non-profit legislative advocacy, lobbying, information sharing and research organization. (CISLAC) works towards bridging the gap between the legislature and the electorate; by enhancing lobbying strategies; engagement of bills before their passage into law; manpower development for lawmakers, legislative aides, politicians and the civil society, as well as civic education on the tenets of democracy and Human Rights.
CISLAC has UN ECOSOC consultative status
AUWAL IBRAHIM MUSA (RAFSANJANI)EXECUTIVE DIRECTORCivil Society Legislative Advocacy Centre (CISLAC)Address: No.7 Mahathma Gandhi Street, Off Shehu Shagari Way, By Bullet Garden, Area 11 Junction,Asokoro, Abuja - NigeriaWebsite: http://www.cislacnigeria.net/
cislacnationalassembly@yahoo.com, rafsanjanikano@yahoo.comGSM: +234-8033844646, 08052370333, 07034118266
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