I am almost innure to the frenzied (foaming at the mouth) passion provoked by religion and any attempt at or dicussions on religious issues; but nobody not even the dead are spared from landslides.
Without equivocation, Christianity like Islam and Judaism are killer religions. Their scriptures are filled with divinely sanctioned genocides, human sacrifice, cruelty to children, women and other races.
If Islam has trumped the other two in the scale of killings in recent times it is because the west was recently able to separate religion from the state (to a large extent). The blood thirst of the theocracy in the Arab world is rivalled only by the christian dark ages and its biblery popery.
Nothing in this world, apart from nationalism, takes men back to the hobbessian state than the 3 Abramaic religions. Thus it is condescending to hear a Jew or christian say "I have met good moslems, civil moslems or refined moslems". Most adherents of these faiths are first adherents by birth, conviction comes
later after years of indoctrination and being force fed the story of dysfunctional Hebrew people and their gods.
I think the only people who can objectively engage religion without wishing cyber burning at the stake or ibombing on fellow contributors are those whose minds have been fed and constantly nourished by broad literature. Those who believe in the fairy tale of winged horses and virgin conceptions; a pimp gods who organises virgins (obviously underraged) and rapture should be feared equally. There is no telling what they can do for their god!
Happily I am a lapsed christian and none the worse for it.
Blargeo
... And that is all she wrote!
Sent from my BlackBerry wireless device from MTN
From: olakassimmd@aol.com
Sender: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 00:55:18 -0400 (EDT)
To: <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
ReplyTo: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
Cc: <seguno2013@gmail.com>; <harrow@msu.edu>; <shina73_1999@yahoo.com>
Subject: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Nigeria: Boko Haram, poverty, Jonathan and the game of musical chairs
Mr Segun Ogungbemi:
A decent and moral human being would readily admit his or her
error of judgement the moment he is fully aware that he has erred.
A decent and moral human being would not try to wriggle his way out
of a tight corner and a hole that he has dug for himself. The more you try to wriggle out
of this hole the more intolerant and bigoted you appear/
Your request that Prof. Kenneth Harrow set aside religious bigotry and logic
is disingenuous. It is disingenuous because you are deliberately trying to move the goal post
and avoid talking about religious bigotry when in fact all your arguments on this thread so far
wreak of extreme religious bigotry and exposes you as an intolerant human being on religious matters.
Was Christianity the religion of your ancestors--even those that lived as
recently as 200 to 300 years ago? Were their large numbers of practicing Christians in Nigeria
until Bis\hop Ajayi Crowther, a returnee slave translated the Bible into Yoruba
and orchestrated the translation of the Holy Book into
other Nigerian languages.
You challenged us to name any other religion whose practitioners had killed
more human beings in the name of religion amongst all others than Islam
I will take the license to broaden the definition of religion along the lines submitted by Professor Harrow
and with a caveat that one mans terrorist is another man's hero or revolutionary: by submitting this list:
Ancient times:
The Islamic Jihads
The Christian crusades
Middle Ages
European Christian slave traders
Islamic Arab slave traders (across the Sahel)
Modern Times:
The US Army--
a) fire bombing of Tokyo in WWII (not to mention the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but the fire bombing was WAY more destructive, killing more than 100,000 people in a single raid) can be looked at as acts of terror: attacking civilian targets to coerce a surrender.
b) My Lai Massacre and other atrocities perpetrated by the US Army during the Vietman War
c) The US and its allied nations during the two Iraq Wars
d) Ongoing killings with drones in Pakistan and Afghanistan
all of the above in the name of spreading democracy and American nationalism -another form of religion.
All of the above have incidents both recent and ancient have killed and some continue to kill and maim more human beings across the world than
all the violent acts of fundamentalist Islamic terrorist around the world including the Al Queeda.
You can find a list of the world's most dangerous terrorist groups in the link.
http://spotonlists.com/history/top-10-most-dangerous-terrorist-groups/
For a more complete list of global terrorist organizations please visit
http://www.worldstatesmen.org/Terrorist.html
Not all terrorist groups in the world are fighting in the name of Islam or any other religion:
Even those that claim to fight in the name of Islam are generally not supported
by the majority of the citizens in their nations--most of whom are moderate
Muslims.
Both Islam and Christianity are foreign religions that have wreaked so much havoc on the psyche
of Africans over the generations--enough to erase what ever good they might have done in our lands.
Were there any practicing Muslims and Christians in Nigeria until the Arabs brought their
Jihads to Nigeria and the Christians arrived holding their Bibles in one hand whilst also
directing with the other the shipping our people out into slavery on some of the same boats
which brought them onto our our shores?
How can any reasonable human being hold all Muslims in the world responsible for 9/11,
Boko Haram and other acts of violence perpetrated by fundamentalist and bigoted
Muslims in Nigeria and around the world?
Does it make any moral sense to indict all white Americans for the act of a one man--e.g.
George Zimmerman confronting and ultimately killing Treyvon Martin?
You cite the achievements of Governor Fashola in Lagos but turn around and assert that
Gen Buhari a fellow practicing Muslim could not make a good civilian President of Nigeria
is a Muslim simply because he is a Muslim.
You owe the entire audience, not just the Muslims an apology for insulting our senses.
You come across as an intolerant human being the kind that has no moral right
to hold a teaching profession in any reputable academic institution, even
one with the most lenient rules on freedom of speech! rules\.
Do you consider Muslim students in your class as being more likely to commit terrorist acts
much more so than their classmates who are Christians, Buddhists, Hindus or are practitioners of other religions.
As I wrote earlier, the game is up!
You have misspoken!
Please do the right thing!
Bye,
Ola
---- Original Message ----
From: Segun Ogungbemi <seguno2013@gmail.com>
To: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Jul 27, 2013 11:52 am
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Nigeria: Boko Haram, poverty, Jonathan and the game of musical chairs
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From: Segun Ogungbemi <seguno2013@gmail.com>
To: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Jul 27, 2013 11:52 am
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Nigeria: Boko Haram, poverty, Jonathan and the game of musical chairs
Dear Adeshina,
I do not profile Muslims. It is what they do that profile them. Oh yes, religious fundamentalism is a form of self-profiling.
Moral reasoning that has all the components of respect for human life, freedom, liberty, human dignity, tolerance et cetera bring harmonious relationship that foster unity and development where humans drink from its spring of self-fulfillment.
Your conclusion drives home the point I am making and I deeply appreciate it. Also, Ken's response is very illuminating. That is an intellectual discourse that deepens one's knowledge.
Segun Ogungbemi.
Sent from my iPhone
Sent from my iPhone
Thank you, Prof. It seems to me that Prof. Ogungbemi is being deliberately mystifying with all those philosophical jargons-moral vs inductive logic.
He doesn't see what is intrinsically wrong with the framework of his 'moral logic' which profiles billions of Muslims as fundamentally killers without differentiation. I'm certainly he has Muslims friends and acquaintances. *Those guys should beware; the Prof. doesn't trust your intentions*
There is no doubt that political Islam has contributed its (un)fair share of violence to the world's grim graveyard of the deads. Yet, losing sight of all the other religions' atrocious offering is being philosophically disingenuous. We should stamp out Boko Haram, all its other fundamentalist manifestations as well as all forms of opprobrious and moralistic thinking that fuels such dastardly fundamentalism in the first place.
There's the solution Prof. Ogungbemi asked for. Ain't no inductive logic in that!
Adeshina Afolayan
*moving to other interesting stuffs*Sent from my BlackBerry wireless device from MTN
From: kenneth harrow <harrow@msu.edu>Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2013 13:04:18 +0200ReplyTo: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.comSubject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Nigeria: Boko Haram, poverty, Jonathan and the game of musical chairsthe religion called nationalism, acting in the name of national interest; the religion called hegemony, dissembling its actions under the name of international peace-making; the religion called america first, acting in the name of god and country...
add up the numbers killed, maimed, and dominated, and we win hands down
and if you don't think the latter is a religion, you ain't a true believer
ken
On 7/27/13 3:59 AM, Segun Ogungbemi wrote:
It is not all Muslims who committed the global violence including 9/11 but those who did it were Muslims. Name any religious organizations in the world that have used violence of the magnitude the world has witnessed in the last two decades.Let us leave deductive and inductive methods of reasoning out of this and face the reality of morals confronting us.You have not examined what I have said and come out with concrete counter moral arguments. This is not about logic. It is about moral reasoning.See what Boko Haram sect has done in the last few years to their fellow Nigerians. Can all these killings and destruction of property be morally justified? To me that is the issue.Let us leave religious bigotry apart and face a common moral denominator. Human life is sacred. Early this year, a friend of mine living in Kano lost one of his sons who was planning to come home the following day and a group of Muslims saw him and short him dead at a close range very close to the gate of their house. Recently, about 10 Yoruba women traders went to Maiduguri in Brono State to buy foodstuff and they were killed by Boko Haram sect. Defenseless innocent women! Forty two secondary students were gruesomely murdered by the same Muslim zealots.Human lives were destroyed just like that and you are talking about logic? Use moral logic not inductive or deductive logic Adeshina.Segun Ogungbemi.
Sent from my iPhone--"Buhari as a person is a pleasant person but being a Muslim: can he be trusted? See what Muslims have turned the world to around the globe. Must Muslims be violent to able to correct a political system or an immoral government? See what they did everywhere in the world today.". Prof. Ogungbemi
For you Sir, being a Muslim has become an undifferentiated category? All Muslims are now, by that fact alone, become complicit in 9/11? All Muslims are intrinsically dangerous? Buhari is disqualified simply because he is Muslim? And therefore, no Muslim is good for anything, not the presidency?
Ah!
I suspect you will deny/reject these assumptions. Just wondering on what basis you'll wriggle out these uncritical assumptions Sir.
Adeshina Afolayan
Sent from my BlackBerry wireless device from MTN
From: Segun Ogungbemi <seguno2013@gmail.com>Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 04:22:43 +0100ReplyTo: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.comSubject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Nigeria: Boko Haram, poverty, Jonathan and the game of musical chairs
Thanks brother Cornelius. Everyone wants power. The use of that power when it is given freely or forcefully acquired becomes a moral issue. Buhari came to power not by any democratic means at all. All military coups against a constitutionally and democratically elected government is an aberration. Buhari usurped power forcefully and governed for roughly two years and another coup swept his administration out. "Soldier go soldier come" as Fela aptly put it.I have no respect for soldiers who abandoned their official responsibility and usurped power forcefully. It is immoral and unacceptable.Buhari as a person is a pleasant person but being a Muslim: can he be trusted? See what Muslims have turned the world to around the globe. Must Muslims be violent to able to correct a political system or an immoral government? See what they did everywhere in the world today.The 9/11 in 2001 still makes me sick inside. For such a heinous crime to be committed against humanity was initially unimaginable. Are Muslims the only people in the world?They have no tolerance and respect for human life. If they don't want to live here on earth, why can't they leave for alijana peacefully and quietly and let those who want to live here enjoy the short span of life given to them by nature?Take a look at Nigerian history, has any religious group been so violent as Muslims? I have lived in this country for 67 years, I have never seen such a carnage done to one's country like what the Muslims have done to Nigeria and their leaders including Buhari would stand aloof without intervention. How can such a person say he wants my vote at the polls? He will never get it. It is not Buhari alone but all those northern leaders who see the kind of carnage Boko Haram Muslim sect has done to innocent Nigerians including children and students and failed to stop it and yet seek to become president come 2015. Is that the way to lead?So Cornelius, have a critical assessment of the situation as discussed above and see how Nigeria can be united by a leader of a better track record than your man, Buhari,You live in Sweden because it is a peaceful environment and the people are probably tolerant and accommodating.I had lived in the US for several years and I have respect for their tolerance and accommodating spirit. It is not a perfect society but it is still the best I have seen in my life. Why don't we aspire to be like that or like Sweden where you live?It is time to rethink without any emotion but just on rational ground and common sense of morals.Segun Ogungbemi.
Sent from my iPhone--Dear Professor Segun OgungbemiThe only reason why I sometimes ask probing questions is to benefit from enlightening answers. Hillel the Elder used to say, "One who does not increase his knowledge decreases it." So, I can only congratulate you, Kusheh, and that your latest response has caused a much valued increase and a diminishing of ignorance on my part.Generally speaking, Northerner (in Nigeria) usually implies "Muslim" although there are minority Christians such as Samuel-Szalanaga 7994 whose observations as witnessed here deserve our attention. Having lived with Igbos in Nigeria, for almost four years, I know that when the Igbo says "Hausa-man" he means Muslim and that Islam is an essential feature of Northern identity, superseding the merely geographic, and that Islam is usually a strong component in Northern identity, since it also encompasses the cultural. Ok, so Gowon wasn't Muslim and I even met an anomaly Hausa –man, one Rev. Muhammad who was studying political science and Human Rights here at Stockholm University, in Sweden a student of Professor Björn Beckman.Here you were stretching it a little. Thou shalt not exaggerate. I do not believe that it's accurate to state that my honest man, Muhmmadu Buhari "was part of those who ruled for 38 years", when in fact he was only head of state from December 31, 1983 to August 27, 1985. He did some real cleaning up before he was deposed by Babangida. The only mistake that Muhammadu Buhari made was that on departing for Mecca he promised that when he returned to Nigeria he would complete the cleaning up exercise and of course – predictably, the corrupt ones then knew that their period of impunity would come to an end when the honest general returned from Mecca , and expecting that their corruption was going to be severely punished, cleaned up, they took the pre-emptive action of deposing him whilst he was still on pilgrimage...You say, "My understanding of democracy is different from yours"? Well, I've lived in a democratic country, Sweden, most of my life – and I'm sure that both of us agree that democracy is not only about running free and fair elections but also about strengthening democratic institutions and that that should be a goal to work for in Nigeria.I know for a fact that with all the transparency in the world, there are still behind the scenes, horse-trading and what not in selecting/ electing a flag-bear to contest presidential elections. In Egypt for example, somehow, "the powers that be" refused the Brotherhood's number one candidate the right to lead his party and to contest the presidential elections. That was immoral. I cannot see the immorality in the PDP deciding in advance, this time the candidate will be a southerner on condition that the next time he or she will be a Northerner and sealing a deal on that understanding. But to renege on that understanding, that would be immoral.The presidency of the general assembly at the UN is done on a rotational basis. Is that also immoral Sir?I am certainly not at all qualified to run for any political post in Nigeria or elsewhere.
On Thursday, 25 July 2013 22:57:40 UTC+2, seguno2013 wrote:--Dear Cornelius,Once again, I appreciate your response but let me clear the issue of my identity. I am an indigenous Yagba in the present Yagba East Local Government, Kogi State, Nigeria. Geographically, Kogi State is in the north hence I am a Northerner. Culturally, traditionally and linguistically I am Yoruba. Therefore, I have a dual identity by virtue of geographical and cultural locations.I don't have any political ambition for now and so I don't solicit for support from any ethnic groups.The issue I want you to examine is this: If the north held on to power at the centre for 38 years and they did not make it to trickle down to the least well off, how can Buhari you support make it to happen when in actual fact he was part of those who ruled for 38 years? Find out the measure of trickle that got to his people then.Pa Awolowo ruled in the defunct Western Region and made the most remarkable impact on his people with the free education program which till today gave the Yoruba an edge in Nigeria. In Ogun State today, they have not less than 9 Universities which make it the only State in the Federation to have the largest number of both public and private universities. This does not include other tertiary institutions in Ogun State. Southwestern Nigeria has the largest number of industries in Nigeria including finance houses- I mean backing industries.Northern governors receive federal allocation monthly from federation accounts so also their local councils. Tell us where is the huge money they receive monthly used for in terms of education, health, poverty reduction and development?Please find out from the rich elites in the north how many private universities have they established in their states as groups or individuals.The Ibos are basically commercial entrepreneurs with a few of them in education. They still have more private universities in their states than the north. How many Presidents have the Ibos produced since independence and yet educationally they are better than the so called numerical north?Poverty and illiteracy have become appendage attribute of the north not because they have not had heads of state or presidents democratically elected from the region since independence but because such leaders never put education of their people on the front burner.My understanding of democracy is different from yours. There is no way, I believe, you can justify rotational presidency on moral grounds and call it authentic democracy.President Jonathan is an academic who never had enough experience in Nigerian politics before he was elected. His credentials plus his age and of course his humility endeared him to most of us who voted for him. If he wants to contest again, he will have to show his scorecards of achievements. It is the electorate who will determine his fate not you and I. So let us see how it goes if at the end of the day he wants to continue in office. You are as qualified as President Jonathan and Buhari to contest but the choice is yours.Merit should be the barometer with which to measure who is fit to be our president and not by rotational "arrangee" introduced by PDP political party of "carry go".Segun Ogungbemi.
Sent from my iPhoneDear Professor Segun Ogungbemi,Of course I am and was aware that you are from the North as that's the first surprising point that you made in the letter that I referred to, in which you said,"I am from the north and it is not true that the north can boast of holding to power at the centre as stated by Prof. Abdullahi."I was initially surprised because both your names, your first name Segun and your surname Ogungbemi are unmistakably Yoruba names and even after having made the probable location of your birth clear (Kwarra?) I still concluded that you are a Yoruba man just like me - no matter from what part of the Diaspora you shed your first tears or whether or not your umbilical cord is buried in the Sokoto, Borno or the more liberal Kaduna area.But jokes aside that's one of the problems of Nigeria's and indeed Africa's regional and tribal politics: you may be born, bred and buried in the North alright but your name proclaims you Yoruba. So which bona fide Hausa man is going to take your self-proclaimed Northern identity, seriously, just because you maybe grew up in that environment? It certainly didn't save the Igbo traders, many of whom were born and bred in the North when the pogroms against the Igbo were perpetrated just prior to Biafra seceding as a safe haven for the Igbo people!Of course, my dear professor, there's no doubt that you are eminently, even pre-eminently qualified to contest the presidential elections as a Northerner who would also sweep the Yoruba vote – there's no doubt about that, however, sweeping the Igbo vote with a name like that, would be quite another matter – as the South of Nigeria is divided between the South West and the South East, literary feuds Soyinka & supporters vs. The ascended Achebe & his fans, whilst in politics proper it's eternally AWO vs. ZIK – has always been – to the extent that we can quote imperial Kipling symbolically, thatYou asked "Is democracy based on rotation?"In my view, acceding to the rotation role playing politics in Nigeria is in the national interest of peace & prosperity and to allay both the fear and lessen the ever increasing tensions based on a perceived imbalance between the North and the South in terms of development, education, and that this perceived injustice that's the main cause of the abject poverty in the North will be more easily righted by a Northern president. Nor do I think that the rotation system agreed upon by the PDP as an internal matter, a compromise of understanding, is in any way "undemocratic"So, I am making a point in favour of – at this time - anointing a Northern as the presidential candidate for the PDP, most likely with a Southern running mate.It's easy to see without looking too far that if that does not happen then Goodluck Jonathan's next logical option will be to retire a few more Northern Generals in the Nigerian military, to pre-empt a coup. Of course, this is standard practice: In their time, Babangida and Abacha played it safe by retiring scores of Yoruba generals and other Yoruba top military brass.As to the question of whether or not a Northern president will uplift the North, here is your answer below, but your answer does not solve the perceived injustice or the current poverty in the North – or take away the North's motivation to capture/ re-capture the presidency.Your views on this:"The educational backwardness of the north as it is known today is not the kind that anyone can be proud of. You don't have to have a northerner as president to make life better for all northerners. Any Nigerian who becomes president of the country can do that. Let the leadership of the north since 1966-2013 show the scorecards of their achievements. For 38 years the north had ruled this country and nothing to show for it, particularly in the north. What have the masses gained from the period they had ruled the country? I think that should be what Ango ought to be concerned about and not that the north will hold on to power come 2015 as long as they want on the basis of their numerical voting power.Obasanjo was in power for 11 years altogether as military head of state and civilian president of Nigeria. Were the Yoruba better off than when Yar'Adua was President of Nigeria? The Yoruba will tell you that they were worse off under the leadership of their kinsman."
You are surely overlooking the patronage that a Yoruba would receive when his kinsman is in power, ditto for the Hausa, the Fulani and of course the Igbo, and therefore, all the more reason for them to fight for their folks to be at the helm of the big business, so that at least a few kobo, more than a dollar a day should trickle down.In one of his interviews Muhammadu Buhari talks about the elite and later on goes on to identify himself with that elite. This suggests to me that a Northern candidate usually comes from the elite – others say that "the Kaduna mafia" is part of it.My impression is that Goodluck Jonathan is not from "the elite" – if anything is very much from the grassroots albeit nothing like my old icon, Michael Imoudu. You ask yourself the question, is Goodluck Jonathan the best that the system was able to deliver to Nigeria?Finally, this democracy business (crazy-demo Fela calls it) by which the winner takes all – as happened in Egypt where the losers wanted to "share" power. In Nigerian terms Id' say that the losers also want "their share"Please excuse some of my stray observations.Yours sin-cerely,dreary Cornelius
On Thursday, 25 July 2013 06:46:50 UTC+2, seguno2013 wrote:--Drear Cornelius,Thanks for making reference to me in this debate. You said and I quote,..."since the North insists that it's their turn according to a rotation system agreed upon, and Prof. Segun Ogungbemi's misgivings about the matters notwithstanding,(he sounds as if there's no one from the North that's qualified to be president of Nigeria."I think you misunderstood me. First, I am from the North and there are many more people like me who are well qualified to be elected president of this country from the region. Therefore, your insinuation is incorrect. Secondly, My view is that rotational presidency is a PDP internal arrangement within the party which is not in our constitution. The demerit of it all is that it promotes disunity rather than unity which is what we are witnessing today.From the foregoing therefore, my proposal is that the best way to secure unity in Nigerian politics is to elect anyone who is mostly suited for the job regardless which ethnic group s/he comes from in Nigeria. That will foster unity and promote enduring and genuine democracy. In other words, it will be seen to be constitutional and authentically democratic.Of course, you have every right to think that Buhari is suitable for job but it should not be based on where he comes from. And more importantly the electorate is to make that decision at the polls.Merit and the electorate not any rotation should be the basis of our guide for the choice we make.Segun Ogungbemi.
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You received this message because you are subscribed to the "USA-Africa Dialogue Series" moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin.
For current archives, visit http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
For previous archives, visit http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
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You received this message because you are subscribed to the "USA-Africa Dialogue Series" moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin.
For current archives, visit http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
For previous archives, visit http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
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unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
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