Yes, Val Ojo would use your own words - highlighted always within his own - to question you, about what you REALLY meant. The problem was that when you responded, your own NEW words were fodder for more questions, without him agreeing or disagreeing with your earlier response..
Very frustrating - until I learnt NEVER to respond MORE THAN ONCE to his probes! :-)
May his soul rest in perfect peace [Amen.]
Bolaji Aluko
On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 2:53 PM, Anunoby, Ogugua <AnunobyO@lincolnu.edu> wrote:
This forum misses Val Ojo already. This is an indication of the measure of the man.
oa
-----Original Message-----
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com [mailto:usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Segun Ogungbemi
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 4:12 AM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient
Yes Gloria. Val Ojo would have given a critical challenge.
God at no time gave anyone a peace of land anywhere. Human beings are characteristically adventurous and any place they occupy, the name of God or Deity is used to justify its exploitation.
God never called anyone for anything.
Segun Ogungbemi Ph.D
Professor of Philosophy
Adekunle Ajasin University
Akungba-Akoko, Ondo State
Nigeria
Cellphone: 08033041371
08024670952
> On Aug 26, 2014, at 3:01 AM, "Emeagwali, Gloria (History)" <emeagwali@mail.ccsu.edu> wrote:
>
> 'If the nations accuse Israel of banditry for seizing the lands of the
> seven nations of Canaan, Israel can respond, "The entire universe
> belongs to God. He created it and He granted it to whomever He deemed
> fit. It was His desire to give it to them and then it was His desire
> to take it from them and give it to us."CH
>
>
> I am sure that the marauding troops of ISIS will claim that God gave Iraq, Syria and even the whole world to them.
>
> Boko Haram can claim that Gwoza was also given to them. Who is to
> stop them from claiming the whole of Nigeria with the same argument?
>
> Empire builders have a lot in common.
>
> What I liked about Valentine Ojo was his critical, probing mind. He
> would definitely have challenged the above statement. May his soul rest in peace.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Professor Gloria Emeagwali
> CT 06050
> africahistory.net
> vimeo.com/user5946750/videos
> Documentaries on Africa and the African Diaspora
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
> [usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Cornelius Hamelberg
> [corneliushamelberg@gmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 5:42 PM
> To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not
> Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient
>
>
> Professor Harrow,
>
> Nice try but no cigar. As our dearly departed Brother Val Ojo - May his soul rest in perfect peace - as he sometimes used to cry, "Lord have Mercy!"
>
> Just this little one thing: You still leave the congregation with angst, divided and with more than three opinions, suffering confusions, disagreements, and much doubt.
>
> There is Ginzberg's "The Legends of The
> Jews"<https://www.google.se/search?num=100&hl=en-GB&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE54
> 8SE548&biw=1024&bih=658&q=Ginzberg+%3A++The+Legends+of+The+Jews&oq=Gin
> zberg+%3A++The+Legends+of+The+Jews&gs_l=serp.12...15312.15964.0.18224.
> 2.2.0.0.0.0.49.96.2.2.0....0...1c.1.52.serp..1.1.48.>
>
> However, concerning Torah and history and man's place in history, the introduction to Genesis begins - not with the question, do you really believe (your leap in faith and understanding) that The Almighty Who Can Do All things, who made heaven and earth and all the planets, pulled Eve out of a rib in Adam's side while Adam was in deep sleep?
>
> The Stone Chumash introduction to Genesis begins<http://www.amazon.com/dp/0899060145/ref=rdr_ext_tmb>:
>
> "We begin the study of the Torah with the realisation that the Torah is not a history book, but the charter of Man's mission in the universe. Thus, in his first comment, Rashi cites Rav Yitzchak who says that since the Torah is primarily a book of laws, it should have begun with the commandment of the new moon (Exodus 12.2), the first law that was addressed to all Jewry as a nation. He explains that the reason for the Torah's narrative of Creation is to establish that God is the Sovereign of the universe: He declared to His people the power of His works in order to give them the heritage of the nations (Psalm 111.6). If the nations accuse Israel of banditry for seizing the lands of the seven nations of Canaan, Israel can respond, "The entire universe belongs to God. He created it and He granted it to whomever He deemed fit. It was His desire to give it to them and then it was His desire to take it from them and give it to us."
>
> Over here this sort of thing<http://www.thelocal.se/blogs/corneliushamelberg/?p=19334> happens...
>
> Holy mother of god!
>
> And the Hindus say, "Holy cow!"
>
>
>
>
> On Monday, 25 August 2014 19:34:33 UTC+2, Kenneth Harrow wrote:
> hi cornelius
> it seems i preface my answers often with, i am not an expert in this. so, ancient religions: i taught a bit in the intro humanities course here at michigan state; read some of the standard histories of religion. i used to know a bit, and having read ancient history for that class developed a small feel for what rings relatively true in historical claims. there was no uniformity of practice in ancient cults or religions. i believe that if you were to ask me what beliefs yoruba people have or had concerning ogun, the only real answer would have to be, depends on which city or region you are talking about.
> must have been true of jews in the ancient period: obviously, i think, they had very different practices. i believe the fact that there are several names for God in the jewish bible signifies that multiplicity of origins, and the bible became a conflation, an editing job done by ezra in the 6th c bce.
> is that right, cornelius?
> so, jews who challenged this or that practice, in this or that region, would probably have been common, just as today a vast number of jews are not kosher, do not observe the kosher laws you are citing, and yet consider themselves jews, and are considered jews by most other jews and non-jews.
>
> is there another question at stake here? was jesus really jewish? was he crowned in mockery the king of the jews by the roman pontius pilate who had him crucified? who knows? i wouldn't believe a single thing in the jewish or christian bible unless a qualified historian presented the evidence to me. the biblical texts were not composed to be history, as we know it. people of today who read it in that fashion are understandably misreading a text written with a different understanding of the meaning of the text and of the world. we are all guessing if we think we can decipher their words and their intentions without enormous leaps of faith--which is, after all, what it is all about. and that's ok.
> ken
> On 8/25/14 10:52 AM, Cornelius Hamelberg wrote:
>
> A good freind<https://www.google.se/search?num=100&hl=en-GB&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=Claude+Kayat&oq=Claude+Kayat&gs_l=serp.12...0.0.0.65167.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1c..52.serp..0.0.0.5vdcz8YR6y0> has even written a book - Le Treizième Disciple<https://www.google.se/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=hts&oq=&hl=en-GB&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=Le+Treizi%c3%a8me+Disciple> / in Swedish "Den trettonde lärjungen"/ The 13th Disciple<https://www.google.se/search?num=100&hl=en-GB&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=Claude+Kayat+%3A+%22Den+trettonde+l%C3%A4rjungen%22%2F+The+13th+Disciple&oq=Claude+Kayat+%3A+%22Den+trettonde+l%C3%A4rjungen%22%2F+The+13th+Disciple&gs_l=serp.12...0.0.0.1922.0.0.0.0.> (Judas) reviewed here<https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.svd.se%2Fkultur%2Flitteratur%2Fkayat-skriver-vackert-som-fa_30509.svd&edit-text=> . In the early seventies - around the time I first met Claude I had read Robert Graves' "King Jesus" and his follow-up to that "The Nazarene Gospel Restored" but I still haven't got round to reading Claude's version, since Jesus is not one of my priorities.
>
> However, this is a question for Professor Harrow ( who was not there) : Is it possible that the eating and drinking of blood is forbidden a Jew and yet Jesus, breaking with tradition and with the holy law, could have said to his disciples at the Pesach Seder<https://www.google.se/search?sourceid=navclient&hl=en-GB&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=Pesach+Seder+> /Passover supper , in the heart of Jerusalem, " This is my blood : drink!"<https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+26%3A25-28&version=ESV> ?
> A second question I'd like to ask ( not directly relevant here) can a Muslim who has not done his First Communion be permitted to serve side by side with a catholic priest, at the altar of a Catholic Church?
>
> Only asking
>
> We Sweden<http://www.thelocal.se/blogs/corneliushamelberg/>
>
>
> On Monday, 25 August 2014 06:07:35 UTC+2, Kenneth Harrow wrote:
> dear segun
> i would make a small objection to the way you framed this account.
> here is the wikipedia version of the judgment of jesus:
>
> Taking Jesus to Pilate's
> Court<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilate%27s_Court>, the Jewish
> elders ask Roman governor Pontius Pilate to judge and condemn Jesus,
> accusing him of claiming to be the King of the
> Jews.[199]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-Holman608-207>
> The use of the word "king" is central to the discussion between Jesus
> and Pilate. In John
> 18:36<http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_%28American_Standard%29/John
> #18:36> Jesus states, "My kingdom is not from this world", but he does
> not unequivocally deny being the King of the
> Jews.[203]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-211>[204]<http
> ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-212> In Luke
> 23:7-15<http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_%28American_Standard%29/Lu
> ke#23:7> Pilate realizes that Jesus is a Galilean, and thus comes
> under the jurisdiction of Herod
> Antipas.[205]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTENis
> wonger1992172-213>[206]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-F
> OOTNOTEMajern.C3.ADkPonessaManhardt2005181-214> Pilate sends Jesus to
> Herod to be
> tried,[207]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTECarte
> r2003120.E2.80.93121-215> but Jesus says almost nothing in response to
> Herod's questions. Herod and his soldiers mock Jesus, put an expensive
> robe on him to make him look like a king, and return him to
> Pilate,[205]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTENisw
> onger1992172-213> who then calls together the Jewish elders and
> announces that he has "not found this man
> guilty".[207]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTECar
> ter2003120.E2.80.93121-215>
>
> Observing a Passover custom of the time, Pilate allows one prisoner
> chosen by the crowd to be released. He gives the people a choice
> between Jesus and a murderer called
> Barabbas<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barabbas>. Persuaded by the
> elders (Matthew
> 27:20<http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_%28American_Standard%29/Matt
> hew#27:20>), the mob chooses to release Barabbas and crucify
> Jesus.[208]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTEBlomb
> erg2009400.E2.80.93401-216> Pilate writes a sign that reads "Jesus of
> Nazareth, the King of the Jews" (abbreviated as
> INRI<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INRI> in depictions) to be affixed
> to Jesus' cross (John
> 19:19<http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_%28American_Standard%29/John
> #19:19>),[209]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTEBr
> own198893-217> then scourges
> Jesus<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagellation_of_Christ> and sends
> him to be crucified. The soldiers place a Crown of
> Thorns<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_of_Thorns> on Jesus' head
> and ridicule him as the King of Jews. They beat and taunt him before
> taking him to
> Calvary<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvary>,[210]<http://en.wikipedi
> a.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-Senior-218> also called Golgotha, for
> crucifixion.[195]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOT
> EEvans2003487.E2.80.93500-203>[199]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus
> #cite_note-Holman608-207>[211]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite
> _note-FOOTNOTEBlomberg2009402-219>
>
> When you write that pontius pilate "handed him over to the jews who accused him of crimes," you leave the reader to infer two things, that become points of accusation against jews for 2 thousand years. First, that the condemnation of jesus by "the jews" must have represented the initial act of jewish malevolence against christians--forgetting that jesus and his disciples were jews, that his followers were all jews, that the jewish high court to which you refer was one body of some of the jews, all of whom were ruled by the romans. and secondly, you somehow omit that after the trial, jesus was taken by the romans who then crucified him.
>
> it is a small point, but if you were a jew, a member of a community whom christians have accused of being "christ-killers" for 2 millenium, you might have reflected on those points before writing them.
> i know that wasn't really central to your point, but it is a fact that very easily hatred for the jews for killing christ returns on the public stage.
> ken
>
> On 8/24/14 6:13 PM, Segun Ogungbemi wrote:
> "Jesus is the greatest philosopher who blended pragmatism in spiritual dimensions. For example, however dismayed, he proved hisResurrection to Thomas and taught by examples, frequently using metaphors to depict contextual realities."
> As much as I agree that faith and medical science can be recognized as tools for healing purposes, you have gone too far by your assumption that "Jesus is a philosopher". Jesus never regarded himself as a philosopher. His resurrection story was cooked up by his disciples. Thomas never touched the hand of Jesus to verify that he was the person nailed on the cross before he bowed down and asked for forgiveness. Jesus would have shown himself to the Scribes, Pontus Pilate who beat him and handed him over to the Jews who accused him of crimes he committed according to their religious Jewish traditions.
> No evidence that he resurrected apart from what his disciples wrote because they were yearning for such miraculous story to confound the world. Celsius, one of the first critics of Jesus event did not find any records supporting his death and resurrection outside what his disciples wrote. One cannot use the Bible to justify itself. It is illogical to do such a thing.
> The Bible is not an authentic historical record but a collection of stories about Jewish religious beliefs.
> It is not a scientific or an academic record of events that can stand intellectual scrutiny.
> Paul was against philosophical questions and that is why he denounced any rational inquiry as foolishness.
> Issues dealing with a God who is all-knowing, all-good, all-powerful and yet he cannot help human beings in their critical predicaments like Ebola epidemics is errant nonsense.
> One can believe anything one chooses can be of help to one in life however stupid it may be, as long as one does not impose it on others like Boko Haram sect.
>
> Segun Ogungbemi Ph.D
> Professor of Philosophy
> Adekunle Ajasin University
> Akungba-Akoko, Ondo State
> Nigeria
> Cellphone: 08033041371
> 08024670952
>
> On Aug 24, 2014, at 10:33 PM, Segun Ogungbemi <segun...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> "Jesus is the greatest philosopher who blended pragmatism in spiritual dimensions. For example, however dismayed, he proved hisResurrection to Thomas and taught by examples, frequently using metaphors to depict contextual realities."
> As much as I agree that faith and medical science can be recognized as tools for healing purposes, you have gone too far by your assumption that "Jesus is a philosopher". Jesus never regarded himself as a philosopher. His resurrection story was cooked up by his disciples. Thomas never touched the hand of Jesus to verify that he was the person nailed on the cross before he bowed down and asked for forgiveness. Jesus would have shown himself to the Scribes, Pontus Pilate who beat him and handed him over to the Jews who accused him of crimes he committed according to their religious Jewish traditions.
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> kenneth w. harrow
> faculty excellence advocate
> professor of english
> michigan state university
> department of english
> 619 red cedar road
> room C-614 wells hall
> east lansing, mi 48824
> ph. 517 803 8839
> har...@msu.edu
>
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> --
> kenneth w. harrow
> faculty excellence advocate
> professor of english
> michigan state university
> department of english
> 619 red cedar road
> room C-614 wells hall
> east lansing, mi 48824
> ph. 517 803 8839
> har...@msu.edu<https://webmail.ccsu.edu/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>
>
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