ba,
You point out "due process" for example. It is there indeed but does it work? It does not seem to work most of the time. The question may be asked why not? I believe I have one plausible answer- those who should work the system do not do as they should. This is indeed why only people who will faithfully work the system as it is designed and expected to work, should be appointed or elected into consequent positions.
This conversation is happening, for me at least, because my desire is that Nigeria only elects or appoints worthy people into positions from which "due process" for example is constructively midwifed. This can be done from now on and without further delay to strengthen the system and make things happen. Miscreants should be discouraged or deselected through a democratic process. This is unlikely to happen if important conversations on how to move Nigeria forward together, are imperiled by impassioned ethnic considerations and muddles.
It is important that attention and care are always given to who election candidates are, and who influence their selection. The selection process need not be by dire process. Leadership is a character business. It is also an attitude and knowledge business. Anyone with credible questionable antecedents should be discouraged from holding important political office. Unacceptable baggage should disqualify an aspiring politician from political office. Anyone who is the subject of serious allegations wishing not to be so disqualified, should redeem themselves directly and immediately and not rely primarily or exclusively on lackeys and proxies to speak for them. Then and only may they participate in the process. A system cannot be better than its operators.
You recall Bode George and his arraignment, prosecution, and conviction. He fell out of favor at the time. He found favor again and was pardoned. He is back. That is not what Nigeria' needs or how Nigeria should work, if she is to become the country the majority of her citizens dream of, and deserve.
There is a certain prominent Nigerian politician alleged to be corrupt. He is widely believed to have acquired great wealth in political office. He says he is not corrupt and has challenges anyone to prove otherwise. There is no need to. Most Nigerians paying attention are aware of the magnitude of material change that has transpired in his life before and after he last served in high office. He knows that the web of corruption is so expansive that his prosecution will more than rock the apple cart. It may crash the system. He is very confident that there is no political will to go after him at this time. This may be one reason why he would not go away like some other corrupt leaders before him. Is he and others like him out of the woods? Time will tell.
It is understandable that you may not wish to characterize this politician for example as corrupt. That is not to say though that he is not. If he is true to himself, he knows what the truth is. In his solemn moments, he knows whether or not he is.
oa
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com [mailto:usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bayo Amos
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2014 5:16 PM
To: usaafricadialogue
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Tinubu loses Vice Presidential slot, pledges to support Buhari, Osinbajo
oa,
1. If we followed your logic, where everyone or any politician who is alleged to have done something wrong is deemed guilty or is supposed to be treated as guilty because the system is weak or because there is room for the alleged to wiggle out of the system or because the alleged can take a lawyer to defend himself or herself, would any politician ever be vindicated? Such a system would also not be fool proof because the innocent can easily be convicted , even in the court of public opinion. It's not everyone that the multitude call a thief that is actually a thief. Some are innocent. Ultimately, some politicians if when unjustifiably maligned can still be vindicated by history.
2. If our justice system is weak, isn't it better to discuss how to strengthen the system? And if Nigeria's justice system is weak, it's not so because Tinubu has made it so. Even though our president says stealing is not corruption, the last time I checked, no forms of corruption, political or otherwise, is legal. All is punishable by some measures. Also, there is something called "due process" in bidding for contracts. If due process is not followed and wrong doing is established, punishment can be meted out to whosoever is found wanting. Bode George, a powerful politician, was at least prosecuted (though his conviction was later quashed by the supreme court) for contract splitting. So there are laws that guide these activities. It's the duty of government to block such loopholes (technicalities) that any politician, smart or otherwise, can exploit to beat the system. And if we have a government that is failing in such a mission, we should hold such a government accountable/responsible rather than ask the accused to convict himself or herself. In most countries, accused are supposed to be treated as innocent except proven otherwise. It's only in a jungle that an accused is expected to convict himself or herself.
3. I agree, it's not all politicians that say "I am not corrupt" that are actually not corrupt. But some that do say so are genuinely not corrupt. If we had cause to doubt any such claim, what better way than to investigate, and if there is evidence of wrong doing prosecute? What I would never do is to call a man, who says he is not corrupt and has challenged others to prove otherwise, a corrupt man.
cheers.
On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 4:25 PM, Anunoby, Ogugua <AnunobyO@lincolnu.edu> wrote:
It seems to me that if more forum participants took more full account of what political corruption is, there will be less rage in the disagreements on which politician or not is/was corrupt. Political corruption happens when authority/influence/power is/are used to pervert the public interest, for personal gain and economic self-aggrandizement. It takes many forms including demanding and accepting bribes in the discharge of one's lawful duties, different forms of favoritism, unequal treatment of all, and deliberate misappropriation of public funds for personal gain.
Political corruption happens when coercion is employed, influence is peddled and power is misused to appropriate public funds. A government official or a politician is therefore not, not corrupt because charges have not been brought successfully or not, against them in court. Corruption thrives in many cases because the laws against it loosely written, and are not easy to enforce, because there is too much wiggle room for instance.
Let us suppose that a politician bids for a government contract. If their bid is successful because they leveraged their influence and power, and successfully manipulated the process, that is corruption. People will know what happened but court admissible evidence may be hard to put together. There is consequently either no prosecution at all, or no successful prosecution. When therefore a powerful politician says "charge me to court if you believe I am corrupt", they know it is not likely to happen and that if it did, it will not be successful. The politician is not, not corrupt because no charges have been brought against them. One is not, not corrupt because the one has not been convicted for corruption in court. Everyone knows for examples that some murderers who should have been prosecuted in court and committed to prison are still free and walk the streets. That one is not prosecuted or convicted is therefore not conclusive of the absence of quilt. It is common knowledge too that the corrupt even when they are prosecuted, have not always been convicted in court, just as murderers get away in court. Does anyone remember "technicalities"?
The justice system is not a fool proof system. It is evidence, procedure, and rule based and can be manipulated for all kinds of reasons on behalf of the high and mighty by wily skilled attorneys. There is, thank goodness, the "free" court of public opinion. In many cases, it is in this court that enduring reputation, good or not, is made. It is also in this court that integrity is ultimately boundlessly and freely impugned.
oa
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com [mailto:usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bayo Amos
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2014 10:53 PM
To: usaafricadialogue
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Tinubu loses Vice Presidential slot, pledges to support Buhari, Osinbajo
Moses,
1.How is it a crime for Bola Tinubu to own Alpha Beta? And what's wrong if Alpha Beta collects revenue for Lagos? Moses, where is the conflict of interest here? What exactly is dirty about this? Where is it written that a certain Bola Tinubu must not transact business with Lagos State? Are you saying because Bola Tinubu was once a governor in Lagos he has no right to own legitimate business in Lagos? If you cared to check details about Alpha Beta, you would know its clientele extend beyond Lagos.
http://www.alpha-beta.net/clients.htm Again, is it wrong for Tinubu to actually own Alpha Beta (assuming he is the owner)? What is wrong in getting commissions for tax collection? I just don't get it. This is nothing but pure nonsense. Again, if Tinubu has done anything wrong, why can't the government prosecute him? Is it not lazy to just say Tinubu is corrupt when all you have are nothing more than your opinions? Where are the facts?
2. You should be pitied. If you cared to follow your own links, you would see an unsigned charges. Those charges were not only unsigned but never preferred against Tinubu. What confers a statue of law on them? If you were really meticulous, that was your chance to use your initiative. That was your moment to call it a big joke. Did it occur to you it could have been forged? There was nothing on those charged sheet to even suggest, or prove remotely it originated from the AGF office. Can you in good conscience state otherwise? Also, did you read Tinubu rejoinder to those allegations, how his name was deliberately misspelled (TinubO vs TinubU) just to lend credence to a crime he didn't commit? I quoted copiously from his rejoinder in my earlier submission. Did you read them? Gani fawehinmi conducted his own investigations but somehow was intimidated by Tinubu? Really? One would think Tinubu was a kind of superman, not one that Obasanjo was actually interested in booting out of office. In 2003, a fake election result was posted on internet (INEC website) that declared Funso Williams of PDP the winner. However, the error was quickly corrected. My point is simple: Tinubu was not a man loved (read protected) by the powers that be in that era. They actually wanted him out. Your story of Tinubu intimidating Gani Fawehinmi sounds like a late night joke. Gani, intimidated? Hmmn. Where is your evidence that Tinubu induced the judge to rule in his favor? If you can't supply this evidence then Moses becomes a liar. You have a chance to redeem yourself. Also, if Gani's evidence was so formidable (your claim), why was it difficult for him to secure a conviction? was Gani an incompetent lawyer? Why has no one be able to use same "formidable" evidence to nail Tinubu? Did Tinubu also induce Gani to 'kill' the evidence? What's your motivation really? It's even funny you wanted Tinubu to sue based on an unsigned charges. How ridiculous? When Waziri got the document which indicated TinubO (not TinubU) did not attend Chicago State University, what was she supposed to do? File charges against Tinubu. But she never did. That was years after Gani passed away. Did Tinubu also intimidate her? Waziri was the EFCC big madam when Tinubu OPENLY called for his own prosecution. I am tired of this back and forth argument. NYSC, Secondary School, University? The ONUS is not on Tinubu to convict himself, but that of government. And by the way, beyond mere gossips here and there, is there any politician in Nigeria who has OPENLY accused Bola Tinubu of DRUG DEALINGS? Of course, Obasanjo openly accused Kashamu of being a drug baron and under the threat of libel, he stood his ground. Do you want Tinubu to sue faceless individuals? Don't circulate lies you have no proof to support against Tinubu.
3.Did you read his rejoinder? What defies logic is the sheer notion that a man who didn't attend university can work in top positions in Deloitte, GTE and Exxon Mobil. That a man who didn't attend a university would OPENLY claim he was taken on a special TOUR as a DISTINGUISHED ALUMNUS as recent as 2012. If you didn't believe that, of what you use are pictures to you? If you accuse a man of forging his certificate, can't the same man forge or fake pictures or documents? What about investigating his claims and then prosecuting him if found untenable? How is that difficult to grasp? You said school records are incredibly easy to obtain in the US, why is it difficult to put a lie to Tinubu's claims all these years? How is he blocking them from doing that? Also, again and again, the onus is not on Tinubu to convict himself of wrongdoing. The facts are there. That you stubbornly hold onto your prejudice, unfounded allegations, worthless opinion is not the reason for Tinubu to kill himself. The truth is out there for those who care.
4.If you claim you don't hate Tinubu, what motivates your passion to see evidence but still claim something else ? How many pastors, imams, priests have the world seen committed horrendous crimes? Are fanatics not killing kids in the name of religion? Your ability to hate has nothing to do with your faith. It's who you are. You can't claim today that Tinubu is an ex-convict, you can't claim he is a fugitive, you can't claim he is even corrupt ( so far you have failed spectacularly to suggest even remotely any wrong doing in that regard), you can't claim he is a certificate forger. When I asked you to provide evidence to the contrary, I gave you an opportunity to air your views. It was not a blackmail to silence you. However, if you didn't have anything reasonable to say, would you not be better served to hold your peace? If you shout Bola Tinubu is corrupt from now till eternity without supplying any piece of evidence of his corruption, does that make you heard? There is a difference between a malicious criticism that stubbornly projects willful ignorance or perhaps it's a case of arrogance of ignorance and a genuine CRITIQUE. I have a challenge for you. How is Bola Tinubu part of those ruining Nigeria?
Cheers.
On Sat, Dec 20, 2014 at 8:33 PM, Moses Ebe Ochonu <meochonu@gmail.com> wrote:
Bayo,
1. Alpha Beta owns the exclusive contract for collecting all Lagos State revenue and is paid a commission of about a billion naira monthly. Alpha Beta is owned by Bola Tinubu. Several publications, including Saharareporters, have published this dirty deal and Tinubu's ownership of Alpha Beta. There has been no refutation of any kind from Mr. Tinubu, nor has he sued any of the publication for defamation or libel.
2. You're still not answering my point about the NYSC and secondary school certificate. The damning evidence of Tinubu's fraud was published by several Nigerian publications more than ten years ago, and the late Gani Fawehinmi conducted his own investigation, collected affidavits from the principals of Government College Ibadan (which Tinubu claimed he attended) and from the establishment he claimed to have done his youth service with. Several Nigerian publications published affidavits and graduates' list which clearly show that Tinubu's secondary school and NYSC claims were fraudulent. I personally recall reading the affidavit from the NYSC establishment in a Nigerian publication. I don't recall Tinubu suing any of those publications as a person falsely accused, especially a powerful person who was governor of an important Nigerian state, would do. Anyway, I have attached the unfiled charge sheet prepared by the attorney general in 2011, which contains a list of graduating students from Government College Ibadan and an affidavit from the FBI attache in Nigeria about the Chicago State case. Fawehinmi collected his evidence--formidable evidence--and went to court. Tinubu's thugs always lay in wait for him, intimidating and harassing the man. Still he pushed on until the judges, under heavy inducement from Tinubu, dismissed Tinubu's case on a technicality and Tinubu's House of Assembly allies hurriedly empaneled a committee that absolved the then governor of any wrongdoing for good measure. Anyway, below is the charge sheet. Here is the link to the document and its accompanying story as published on Saharareporters.com a few days ago.
3. The Chicago State issue is a very straightforward matter. The allegation has been around for more than ten years, while according to Tinubu's spokesman the former Lagos governor has in his possession documents and pictures that could prove that he attended and graduated from Chicago State U. This defies logic. Why would a politician and public figure, especially one with vice presidential ambition, allow his image to take such a battering for more than a decade if he has evidence that would shut his accusers up for good and conclusively prove that he indeed attended and graduated from the university? The way I see it, if someone accuses me of not attending or graduating from an institution I claim to have attended, especially if I'm a public figure with a need to protect my image, I will do a number of things to refute the allegations: release my acceptance letter, or the commencement booklet containing my name, commencement photos if any, a certificate of completion from the school, any awards, an affidavit from the school attesting to my attendance and graduation, or any combination of the above documents. School records are incredibly easy to obtain in the US. Why would Tinubu be in possession of what his spokesman says are "documents and pictures" that prove he graduated from Chicago State U and refuse to release them while letting his accusers have a field day? Doesn't make sense.
4. You say I hate Tinubu and that I'm out to malign him. No, not true. I don't hate him. I don't hate anyone, period. My faith as a Christian forbids it. I don't and can't hate that I know and interact with, even people who have wronged me, so how can I hate someone I don't know in person and haven't met? This is nothing personal or hate-related, and you're perhaps trying to emotionally blackmail me into silence here. The truth is that my critique of Tinubu is driven by both passion and patriotic angst--passion to hold those who have destroyed and continue to destroy Nigeria accountable, and angst at the entities who have personalized our collective patrimony while pretending to be self-sacrificing patriots. Please google me. You will see that I have been in the trenches of public commentary and critique for at least fifteen years. I have critiqued many other Nigerian public figures (OBJ, Okonjo-Iweala, Yar'Adua, Soludo, Mark, etc) in perhaps harsher terms than I have Tinubu. In fact I did not get on Mr.Tinubu's case until recently (although I've been aware of his narcotic trafficking past and have been following his career of political crimes and corruption). I am standing up to critique and expose his shenanigans now because his profile has risen in the last few weeks as he practically made Buhari's emergence possible and installed his underling, Professor Osinbajo, in the VP slot. It dawned on me as it did on other Nigerians that Mr. Tinubu could in fact become the godfather of both the president and vice president of the country, arguably the most powerful person in the land, a horrendous specter that would spell a new low for our country-- to have a drug baron certificate forger as the supreme kingmaker in Nigeria unless a president Buhari and Osinbajo manage to break free to become their own men.
In the final analysis, nothing we say here is of big consequence to the political and electoral dynamics unfolding on the ground in Nigeria. I have put my anti-Tinubu critique and concerns on the record. And that's all that counts. Believe it or not, even though we don't agree on any point, we have put a lot of issues on the table regarding Tinubu, who is merely a poster child for a deeper, more national malaise in which hundreds, perhaps thousands of other politicians across the ethnic and regional spectrum of Nigeria are implicated. You have been a feisty if shockingly evasive interlocutor. And you were quite civil in your responses. That's the way it should be, passionate but civil. You have made your points; I have made mine. We're now going around in circles, and so I must bow out to turn to more productive endeavors.
Be well, and Happy holidays!
On Sat, Dec 20, 2014 at 3:20 PM, Bayo Amos <aaeoee@gmail.com> wrote:
Funny,
1. I did not refuse to touch Alpha Beta. I asked you the following:
Now, is it a crime for Tinubu to run his legitimate business in whatever name it is called? Is it illegal for Tinubu to bid for contracts anywhere? Are there no laws regulating such activities and if such laws are flouted, is it not the duty of incumbent administration through EFCC to investigate and prosecute? It's cheap perhaps lazy to simply say Tinubu is corrupt when the question ought to be: why is Jonathan so pro-corruption? Why can't the Jonathan administration prosecute Bola Tinubu if there is evidence of wrong doing?
You are yet to answer those questions. It's indeed a shame to malign a fellow human without any iota of evidence. If you are asked again to present Tinubu's evidence of corruption in Alpha Beta, won't you chicken out? Are you a kind of God that we should take your words without credible evidence?
2.What's my business proving to you Tinubu had a secondary education where evidence abounds he graduated from a university. What would that achieve? Just to make Moses happy? Do you now believe Tinubu indeed attended Chicago State University? It's a shame. Hatred indeed is a terrible thing. Why can't Tinubu publish his pictures? Really?You are willing to give the benefit of doubt to his accusers but none to Tinubu. So Tinubu's donations to his alma mater suddenly confer the status of alumnus on him? Didn't you read in the same rejoinder where Tinubu stated he was a distinguished alumnus? Moses, most reasonable people, on the strength of Tinubu's rejoinder alone, would doubt those accusations. I can't vouch you are reasonable to continue to hold on to straw just to prove a non-existence crime. What about asking those making these allegations to prosecute Tinubu? Isn't that fair? Are you not the same fellow who accused me of pretending to be objective? If calling you a dishonest fellow would be too weighty, are you by any measure objective?
3.APC saved ACN from internal strife? What a pity. Pour me some wine. Would there have been APC without Tinubu? Can we now say Tinubu saved himself? I really don't know your motivation but lies can readily be illogical. Tinubu was imposed, Tinubu did not win, Tinubu was declared? What have you not claimed? But when it comes to presenting evidence to justify those claims, you seem to be impotent. Again, who imposed Tinubu? Again, can you state by what margin Funso Williams defeated Tinubu? A thousand worthless opinions can never ever amount to a single statement of fact. It's a shame.
4.Investigations do not amount to conviction. The onus was not on Tinubu to convict himself, it was on the prosecution to prove their case beyond reasonable doubt. Tinubu did not make those laws. You are free to hold on to your prejudice but any reasonable person who has followed this thread can at least see you for who you are. Happy holidays.
Cheers.
On Sat, Dec 20, 2014 at 3:11 PM, Moses Ebe Ochonu <meochonu@gmail.com> wrote:
By the way, Bayo, it is interesting that you did not touch Tinubu's false claims about his NYSC and secondary school certificates. And, of course, you have refused to touch on Alpha Beta and other allegations of Tinubu's commandeering of contracts from the Southwestern states in which his allies are governors. So when we talk about Tinubu using his vast financial resources to build a credible opposition in Nigeria, we should include a footnote that these resources are stolen loot from his time as governor and from the rent that he collects from his political godsons in Southwestern government houses.
On Chicago, he did write on his INEC form that he attended Chicago University, a non-existent school. Later, he claimed that he meant to write Chicago State University. Fair enough. And then his spokesman stated the following recently:
Meanwhile, Tinubu has genuine documents and pictures showing him as an award-winning student at the school. Nigeria should be proud that one of its own graduated an honor student from an American university over thirty years ago when that was more of a rarity than it is today. Instead, his detractors want to pretend he never set foot on campus.
My question, and that of most reasonable people would be, why not simply publish these documents and pictures to put paid to the allegations forever, or simply have the school issue a statement to confirm your enrolment and graduation. An award-winning student should be able to proudly publish the documents Tinubu's spokesman claims he has in his possession, as a way of finally settling that part of the forgery allegations. So, his spokesman says he was hosted by the school in 2012, but he conveniently left out the fact that according to reports Tinubu had made a hefty donation to the school, his purported alma mater, and that American schools routinely host donors, alma maters or not, in receptions on campus.
If not for the practice of imposition of candidates, of which AD, PDP, APC, CPC and all parties, defunct or active, are guilty, Tinubu would be a non-factor today as he should. Since he himself was imposed as an AD candidate in 1999, he has become the imposer-in-chief. The defunct ACN almost collapsed because of Tinubu and the party elders' penchant for imposing candidates (so-called consensus candidates) and refusing to hold primaries. The merger and the emergence of APC actually saved ACN from internal strife over Tinubu and the party elders' obsession with consensus candidates a.k.a imposed candidates.
Tinubu's credit ledger can't hold a candle to his debit ledger.
Cheers
On Sat, Dec 20, 2014 at 1:32 PM, Moses Ebe Ochonu <meochonu@gmail.com> wrote:
"Tinubu explained how he made his millions legitimately through bonuses from top firms, ExxonMobil et al."
Bayo,
If you truly believe this I have a mansion in Manhattan to sell you! Wow, talk about defending the indefensible. US investigators investigated Tinubu (by the way, they have to have reasonable cause of narcotics trafficking to investigate) and their investigation led them to believe that Tinubu's money came from heroin trafficking. They even named accomplices and provided a mountain of detail on the operation. They spoke to his employers, who denied owning the account in which the money was found, contrary to Tinubu's claim. Again, it was a painstaking investigation with many damning details in the court records that I posted. Tinubu, seeing the evidence against him, admitted wrongdoing, leading to a settlement in favor of the US government in which he forfeited the proceeds/assets in question. Yet, in your book, because he was not convicted, Tinubu is innocent, a saint. Most high level drug trafficking, corruption, and other financial criminal cases routinely end up in civil forfeiture proceeding not because the defendants are innocent but because in America's judicial system, prosecutors have to determine if they have enough evidence to secure a criminal (or even civil) conviction. They clearly had enough evidence to convince most reasonable people that Tinubu was a heroin kingpin and that the BS about Mobil making him a dollar multimillionaire is hogwash. But clearly they didn't feel like they had enough to secure a criminal conviction because in criminal proceedings the standard of proof is a lot higher and by merely raising a reasonable doubt a smart defense attorney can scuttle the trial. Anyway, please continue to believe that Tinubu is a saint because he has not been convicted or that he was not a drug kingpin or because he only lost a civil narcotics case to US government prosecutors. I just hope that when some other politician is the one under the microscope, you will accord them the same diversionary, pedantic legalism that you're shamelessly invoking here.
Shaking my head, to borrow Bolaji's catch phrase.
On Sat, Dec 20, 2014 at 12:36 PM, Bayo Amos <aaeoee@gmail.com> wrote:
Moses,
Again, perception is different from reality.
1. Tinubu is not a saint and can never be a saint. There is not a single politician in Nigeria that can so described. All without exception have weaknesses. You're equally right about no politician is short of redeeming features. However, when will present our personal opinions as facts, we do a great disservice to history, to objectivity. In the process, we fail to hold ourselves to the same standard we seek for Tinubu et al. Also, no human being is completely objective, not even Moses. Or are you? Laughable. You present your narrative, I present mine but what we can't change are the facts. We may interpret the facts differently but at least we should all acknowledge the facts.
2.Frankly, I have no business with what Amaechi went through to reclaim in his mandate, it's in public space. In my previous submissions, I stated in clear terms that Nigeria was no stranger to electoral controversies. I am just interested in Tinubu case. How he lost a primary to Funso Williams? You seem not to realize that anyone including Moses and even Bayo can make an allegation but not all can adduce credible evidence to prove it. Moses can say Bola Tinubu lost while Bayo asserts Tinubu won. If you asked Tinubu and his supporters, the answer would be he won. If you ask Tinubu's detractors, the answer would be he lost. But what are the facts? Did he actually lose? Can you prove it? If you can't, please keep quiet and move on with your life. There is a difference between an opinion and a fact. There is a difference between someone who deserved to win and who actually won.
3.Also, when it comes to corruption, I am interested in the particular case of Tinubu. If you like call Obasanjo a thief, it's none of my business. However, I would be the LAST man to call someone who OPENLY called for his own prosecution a corrupt fellow. Today, you can't call Tinubu an ally of Jonathan and can't in good conscience say Jonathan is protecting him. Therefore, if Tinubu is so notoriously corrupt, irredeemably corrupt and the evidence so manifestly glaring, it''s not a rationalization when some people including Bayo say, wait a minute, why can't this Tinubu be prosecuted? Or is he expected to prosecute himself? At least, he is not running from prosecution, he is actually challenging the state to prosecute. That is where Tinubu is different from the rest. He is not a cheiftain of the ruling party, he is not an ally of the government that controls the EFCC, ICPC, Police, Director of Public prosecution etc and he has challenged the government to at least prosecute him. What else should Tinubu do? Should he file charges against himself? Moses, I would love to see Tinubu in prison, please beg Jonathan to make that happen. If you can't do that and the government can perform its duties, please keep quiet and move on with your life. Tinubu is not corrupt because Moses thinks he is. Or is Tinubu corrupt because Moses says he is?
4.Moses, I am not pretending or trying to shy away from reality when I said a forfeiture was an admission of wrongdoing. That is a fact. For Tinubu to have agreed to part with some of his money, he obviously admitted wrongdoing. How? He had a choice of fighting it out and thereafter sue for compensation. But he chose not to do that. It doesn't matter whether after protracted litigation, the cost of litigation made a case, rational or otherwise, for compromise.Whether he likes it or not, he cannot run away from that tainted record. However, a more objective narrative would also examine the circumstances of that particular case. Why was Tinubu not sentenced to terms of imprisonment? Is Tinubu in any way an ex-convict? Does he, as we say in America, have a criminal record? Is that incident sufficient to bar him from holding a public office? Well, the United States granted the same man political asylum! Not so? Did the US waive Tinubu's criminal records to do that? Can Moses name some criminals that US had extended similar gesture to in the past? The question has always been whether a civil procedure should coyly be called a criminal one just because we want to prove a case against Tinubu. Did you also read Tinubu's rejoinder where he asserted he was never convicted? So, your insinuations that Tinubu funded NADECO using illicit funds was not more than your opinion. Again, you have no proof to support that. Tinubu explained how he made his millions legitimately through bonuses from top firms, ExxonMobil et al. Even during the course of the investigation, FBI agent spoke with officials in Mobil. So you can't say in good conscience Tinubu also falsified records that he worked in Mobil. So you have no choice but to believe he earned those bonuses except you can provide evidence to the contrary. So keep quiet and move on with your life.
5.When Salisu Buhari said he went to University of Toronto, his claims were investigated. Those claims turned out to be false because the University of Toronto said so. Thereafter, Buhari himself admitted he lied and the rest as they say is history. However, Tinubu has maintained he graduated from the Chicago State University. In his rejoinder, he said:
The recent report on one of the online news websites on the allegations bordering on his academic qualification is not new. What is new is how desperate they have become to stir up a new controversy using an old lie. In the past these allegations were successfully rebutted. Recent attempt to present them as fresh allegations will not go unchallenged..........
The particular accusations in the story further reveal the malice of mind of those peddling it. They claim Tinubu did not attend Chicago State University. They cite as their evidence a letter from the US Consulate. But if you read the letter carefully, the surname stated is "TinubO" not "TinubU." If the University did a computer check on that name, the check would come up empty. The culprits likely misspelled the last name so that the name search would reveal nothing. This is clever but immoral; it is a wrong knife.
Meanwhile, Tinubu has genuine documents and pictures showing him as an award-winning student at the school. Nigeria should be proud that one of its own graduated an honor student from an American university over thirty years ago when that was more of a rarity than it is today. Instead, his detractors want to pretend he never set foot on campus.
As late as August 2012, Tinubu visited the university and was given a special reception and a tour by the school's president. This would not have been done for a stranger. It would have been done for a distinguished alumnus.
After graduation, Tinubu landed jobs with two well established international companies, one the accounting firm Deloitte and Touche and the other, ExxonMobil. Such companies investigate an applicant's academic background. If he had not attended school, these companies would not have hired him. He would not have excelled in them but he did. http://saharareporters.com/2014/12/16/ahmed-tinubu-victim-not-villain-spokesman-says
Now how can one read this rejoinder and in good conscience continues to maintain that all Tinubu's academic certificates are forged?How? Is that objectivity? I would love to see Tinubu prosecuted for forgery if there is credible evidence but it's unfair for anyone to ask Tinubu to crucify himself. When we read all these allegations, we should also endeavor to read Tinubu's answers, rejoinders etc to them. That to me, is being fair, being objective.
6.Moses, you might one to say Tinubu is greedy. His wife is a Senator and several of his in-laws are equally positioned to win some political tickets. But where is that politician in Nigeria who is not greedy? Is this an exception, is he a deviation from the norm? And if he is not, why are our voices so vociferous in condemning him, singly him out as a villain when others can equally be accused of the same thing? When it comes to Tinubu, we're reminded there are no saints in Nigeria. Fine, that's true. Jonathan is not a saint, Buhari is not a saint, Tinubu is not a saint, Obasanjo is not a saint. They are all devils. But among the devils, who is the most devilish? Tinubu? Moses, we have our perceptions and prejudices but we should keep them within us when facts are scarce to make them what we would have loved to be our reality. I am still at loss why the sheer notion that Tinubu aspires to be a VP to Buhari is a toxic idea. Why? Why is Tinubu not fit to hold any public office? Can you quote the very sections of our military imposed constitution ( a false document that tells lies about itself, apologies to FRA Williams), that make Bola Ahmed Tinubu ineligible to hold office? Or is he ineligible because Moses says so? Can you in good conscience say Tinubu needs a waiver in order to contest? If Buhari, a man who overthrew a democratic government, can contest for the highest office in the land without offering an apology, without remorse, why can't a Tinubu who has worked all his years to promote democracy, provide an alternative platform to the PDP not able to utilize that platform? Why? What makes Tinubu such a toxic idea? Bode George, who was politically rehabilitated by GEJ, is today partaking in our 'democratic' space, contributing his own quota to our 'development'. Alams, a man still wanted in UK, is running for senate. Kashamu, a man still wanted in US, is running to represent a section of Ogun in the senate. Even Fayose who normally should not have allowed to contest for Ekiti top post (he was impeached, he did not contest his impeachment, and ten years is yet to lapse to clear him for public office). They are all friends of Jonathan, our president. However, Tinubu who is not an ally of Jonathan, who is working against interests of Jonathan, who frequents US without harassment, who is not a fugitive, who is not an ex-convict, who has openly call for his own prosecution if there is evidence, is not fit to run for office?
Cheers
On Sat, Dec 20, 2014 at 8:54 AM, Moses Ochonu <meochonu@gmail.com> wrote:
IBk,
You're right about gradations of badness when it comes to our politicians, but Tinubu ranks pretty high up there, and that's the problem. While you make good points about his democratic contributions, the idea that this should mitigate or erase his crimes is a recipe for retrogression. Where does it stop? After all, you'll find people across the country who will have good, valid things to say about even the most villainous leader, including Abacha, who is regarded as a hero in several parts of the North because of PTF. There is no politician or leader in Nigeria who has no redeeming quality to him or her, so your logic can be stretched to infinitely elastic limits, making it impossible to name and condemn villainy. And that is my overarching point and concern. Measuring gradations and levels of villainy, after all, is a subjective endeavor. Many people even say that OBJ paid off our debt, accumulated a huge saving from rising oil prices, and made some modest moves against corruption, and that those credits should entitle him to a pass when we compile a list of national villains. Again, where does it stop, and isn't this logic ultimately paralyzing? Finally, unless you're willing to extend the same nuance with which you evaluate Tinubu to other villains (which I have not seen you do), you are engaging in the dangerous double standards that Ikhide has been decrying. No one expects angels to come down and govern us, but we cannot pick favorites among our villains, rehabilitate them, condemn the villains we are not fond of, and expect things to get better.
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 20, 2014, at 5:42 AM, Ibukunolu A Babajide <ibk2005@gmail.com> wrote:
Chidi,
You make a valid point. That is the outcome of the divide and rule tactics of our colonial conquerors. However, as educated elite we can see the degree of avarice across ethnic lines.
A Bola Tinubu who brought governance to Lagos and innovatively built an internally generated revenue base is different from a Sani Abacha who transferred useful capital into western banks while Imams made the minds of the children and youths of Kano fertile soil to plant Islamic fundamentalism.
What about numbers. If we had 10 Governors like Bola Tinubu engaging and breaching the gulf between the masses and the elite the Nigerian political landscape would radically change. Name in the last 16 years of democracy any Governor with his track record.
He saved us all from the tyranny of a PDP one party state that Obasanjo by sleight of hand wanted to impose on Nigeria. He is building a strong coalition to save us from PDP ruinous ineptitude. He is doing so much to install a modicum of democracy.
Why this obsessive focus on Bola Tinubu who is not even in government while ignoring the lameduck clueless President who has out of sheer ignorance polarised the country on ethnic and religious lines.
Fair is fair but life is never a choice between black and white but between shades of black and shades of white.
You be the judge.
Cheers.
IBK
On 20 Dec 2014 12:17, "Chidi Anthony Opara" <chidi.opara@gmail.com> wrote:
In Nigeria, heroism and villainy are usually localized and class based. So, Bola Tinubu's image of a villain among the elites may not subsist on the streets of Isale Eko and in other places in Lagos state where the masses live.
The late Sani Abacha is seen as a hero in his home state; Kano and a villain in Ogun State, late MKO Abiola's state.
I even heard that a chap in Oghara motor park in Delta state proudly adopted "James Ibori" as nickname. Oghara is James Ibori's hometown.
CAO (in retreat)
On Friday, 19 December 2014 03:35:18 UTC+1, Emeagwali, Gloria (History) wrote:"By the way, Ochonu's shoplifting history was the subject of several explosive reports done by New York Times several years ago. ..
Those stories relied mostly on judicial records of shoplifting and penalty in the US. "
Kadiri, I hope you can withstand a lawsuit for character assassination. Be careful.
Professor Gloria Emeagwali
History Department
CCSU. New Britain. CT 06050
africahistory.net
vimeo.com/user5946750/videos
Gloria Emeagwali's Documentaries on
Africa and the African Diaspora
________________________________
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com [usaafric...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Salimonu Kadiri [ogunl...@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2014 2:36 PM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Tinubu loses Vice Presidential slot, pledges to support Buhari, Osinbajo
Moses Ochonu, to put it straight, is intellectually dishonest. He started by pretending to be against ethno-fascism but ended up mating with fascists. Ochonu wrote, "By the way, Tinubu's drug trafficking history was the subject of several explosive reports done by Sahara reporters several years ago. ....Those stories relied mostly on judicial records of drug proceeds, forfeiture proceedings in the US. The records are there. Where did he get money to almost singlehandedly fund NADECO, NALICON and other pro-democracy groups during the Abacha days....? PDP have Buruji Kashamu, another drug baron, and APC have their Bola Tinubu."
Let us force Ochonu's feet into the same shoes he has just worn Tinubu with. Here it goes. By the way, Ochonu's shoplifting history was the subject of several explosive reports done by New York Times several years ago. ...Those stories relied mostly on judicial records of shoplifting and penalty in the US. The records are there. For these statements to be regarded as true and correct, we must be able to give the date of the publication, of Ochonu's shoplifting case, in the New York Times and also quote some parts of the publication to buttress our statements. The moment history (record or account of past events) retrogresses into story (fiction) as in the two cases of Ochonu's shoplifting and Tinubu's drug trafficking we are no longer dealing with facts but mental masturbation. And if Ochonu were dealing with facts he would not even need to ask from where Tinubu got the money with which he financed NADECO, NALICON and other pro-democracy groups during Abacha days since the judicial records of drug proceeds, forfeiture proceedings in the US would have shown the amount of money involved. The expression *DURING ABACHA DAYS* as applied by Ochonu shows that he loved Abacha, otherwise, he would have written, DURING ABACHA DICTATORSHIP. Even if Ochonu does not like the pro-democratic stance of Tinubu, he does not need to compare him to Buruji who, unlike Tinubu who travels in and out of US at will, is currently wanted for trial in US. Those who are addicted to ethnic Viagra may not be able to see this clear cut evidence of Tinubu's innocence but what can one do than to pity them. Case closed.
________________________________
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 16:02:49 -0600
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Tinubu loses Vice Presidential slot, pledges to support Buhari, Osinbajo
From: meoc...@gmail.com
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
I, too, would like to register my surprise and indignation that Ikhide would endorse and repost such blatant ethnic baiting. The writer makes valid points about the hypocrisy of the "Lagos-Ibadan," "progressive" journalistic and intellectual axis and the way its members have given a pass to Tinubu and other tainted people in the opposition, a disposition which contradicts their vocal and justified denunciation of similar vices on the part of Jonathan and members of the PDP incumbency. However, he ruined these points by accusing a phantom "Yoruba" mindset and by ethnicizing the sins of a multiethnic opposition.
The self-proclaimed "progressive" wing of the Nigerian intellectual and journalistic classes, which includes, for lack of a better term, the human rights conglomerate or community, is hardly synonymous with Yoruba. It is a cast that includes many members from other ethnic groups. Moreover, while most of its members are Southerners and its ideological epicenters are in the South, it counts many northerners among its members. It is true that this broad constituency is largely in the camp of the national opposition, however much they deny it, and that a variety of reasons may account for this, including primordial considerations. It is also true that the Southern Nigerian press has traditionally been sympathetic to the opposition parties (AD, ACN, APC while their northern Nigerian counterparts have been sympathetic to the ANPP, CPC, and now APC). However, there are cogent explanations for this reality, ranging from patterns of media ownership to the need to maintain the illusion of distance from the government, to the accident of location. Moreover, the picture that emerges from all this is not one that indicts any single ethnic group. Rather it is one in which many people covering the ethnic and regional breadths of Nigeria are implicated in the hypocrisy and selective outrage that the writer (and Ikhide) points to.
By the way, Tinubu's drug trafficking history was the subject of several explosive reports done by Saharareporters several years ago. A quick search on that site should produce links to the stories. Those stories relied mostly on judicial records of drug proceeds forfeiture proceedings in the US. The records are there. Where did he get money to almost singlehandedly fund NADECO, NALICON, and other pro-democracy groups during the Abacha days, a contribution for which he was given the AD governorship ticket ahead of Funsho Williams who won the primary election? PDP have their Buruji Kashamu, another drug baron, and APC have their Bola Tinubu.
And, of course, all of Tinubu's known certificates, including his School Cert. are forged. Several publications published exposes on his fake secondary school, Chicago State, and NYC certificates when he was governor, and the late Gani Fawehinmi went to court to try and have him convicted of perjury only to be intimidated and frustrated by Tinubu's thugs and compromised judges. Moreover, just a few days ago, Saharareporters published a letter supplied by an FBI personnel confirming that Tinubu did not attend Chicago State.
So, Ayo, unless you have proof that Tinubu is who/what he says he is, it is disingenuous to dismiss as unsubstantiated allegations for which documentary proofs have existed in the public domain for a while.
On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 2:39 PM, Shola Adenekan <sholaa...@gmail.com<mailto:sholaa...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Ayo, many thanks for this. It seems to me Oga Ikhide is using Fox News' tactics here - implicitly condemning a whole ethnic just because of the sin of one man. This is a side of Oga Ikhide I didn't know exist until now! Those of us who constantly berate racist folks cannot in any way promote ethnic baiting. Bigotry is bigotry whether directed at African Americans or Yoruba people.
Beside, as you rightly point out, it is the same Yoruba people who overwhelmingly voted for President Jonathan four years ago. I guess we should not let the facts stand in the way of (subtle) bigotry.
Apologies for the multiple posting. I'm writing and editing on my iPhone whilst getting my 14 days old daughter ready for bed!
On 17 December 2014 at 21:36, Shola Adenekan <sholaa...@gmail.com<mailto:sholaa...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Ayo, many thanks for this. It seems to me Oga Ikhide is using Fox News tactics here - implicitly condemning a whole ethnic just because of the sin of one man. This is a side of Oga Ikhide I didn't know exist until now! Those of us who constantly berate racist folks cannot in any way promote ethnic baiting. Bigotry is bigotry whether directed at African Americans or Yoruba people.
Beside, as you rightly point out, it is the same Yoruba people who overwhelmingly voted for President Jonathan four years ago. I guess we should not let the facts stand in the way of (subtle) bigotry.
On 17 December 2014 at 21:36, Shola Adenekan <sholaa...@gmail.com<mailto:sholaa...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Ayo, many thanks for this. It seems to me Oga Ikhide is using Fox News' tactics here - implicitly condemning a whole ethnic just because of the sin of one man. This is a side of Oga Ikhide I didn't know about until now! Those of us who constantly berates racist folks cannot in any way promote ethnic baiting. Bigotry is bigotry whether directed at African Americans or Yoruba people.
Beside, as you rightly point out, it is the same Yoruba people who overwhelmingly voted for President Jonathan four years ago. I guess we should not let the facts stand in the way of (subtle) bigotry.
On 17 December 2014 at 21:24, Shola Adenekan <sholaa...@gmail.com<mailto:sholaa...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Ayo, many thanks for this. It seems to me Oga Ikhide is using Fox News tactics here - implicitly condemning a whole ethnic just because of the sin of one man. This is a side of Oga Ikhide I didn't know exist until now! Those of us who constantly berates racist folks cannot in any way promote ethnic baiting. Bigotry is bigotry whether directed at African Americans or Yoruba people.
Beside, as you rightly point out, it is the same Yoruba people who overwhelmingly voted for President Jonathan four years ago. I guess we should not let the facts stand in the way of (subtle) bigotry.
On Wednesday, December 17, 2014, Ayo Obe <ayo.m...@gmail.com<mailto:ayo.m.o.obe@gmail.com>> wrote:
Ikhide, I am disappointed in your response, and that you are finding "some points" in the Facebook response to the statement by Bola Tinubu which I thought quite patriotic and statesmanlike. Now, I don't expect you to approve it or even to find it inspiring and commendable (as I do), but the relentless sneering and repetition of allegations for which there doesn't seem to be any foundation (I am hearing the 'drug baron' one for the first time though) does little or nothing to change the level of political discourse.
There is no doubt that many expected the APC to break up over the choice of a presidential candidate, a running mate and so on, and now that that has not happened, they are having to reach into the bottom of the barrel of ethnic stereotypes and insults to mask their disappointment, though it's not clear whether those insults are supposed to encourage the Yoruba to vote for the Jonathan/Sambo ticket, or just to persuade them not to vote for the Buhari/Osinbajo one, if at all they are all supposed to vote only one way. Is it not ridiculous to stereotype a whole people just because of political choices that they make or do not make? The people of Ekiti who are exempted from the vituperations against the Yoruba, how many of them voted for Kayode Fayemi? Are they also exempted or does the saintlihood depend on how only the majority voted? What were the Yoruba when they voted for Jonathan in 2011?
The Facebook writer goes completely and offensively overboard in his determination to express his hatred for Tinubu and the Yoruba. Yes that hurts, but not for the reason Ikhide thinks, and certainly not because it is "the truth", I mean how many newspapers are there in the South West that they are all in Tinubu's pocket? Is Vanguard one of them? The Sun? Tribune? I don't know whether the writer lives in Lagos or even Nigeria, but for his and Ikhide's information Tinubu stopped being Governor of Lagos State more than seven years ago and is not running for any office. In case you hadn't noticed, godfathers have a history of being cast aside in Nigerian politics. If they endure, it might just be because they have something else to offer. So why not get all bent out of shape about something else please.
Ayo
I invite you to follow me on Twitter @naijama
On Dec 17, 2014, at 5:35 PM, 'Ikhide' via USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Here is Bola Ahmed Tinubu conceding the loss of the APC's vice presidential slot to someone else, whose name fails me, never heard of him before!
"There came a time during the course of the events when our Presidential candidate, General Muhammadu Buhari, offered me the Vice Presidential slot. Being a normal human being, I was deeply moved and honoured that he would consider me for the position. Being a patriot, I had to weigh my potential candidacy in all of its dimensions.
"I have concluded that the interest of the party, our campaign and that of the nation are better served if I retain my position as the National leader of the APC, allowing me to be a bridge builder across all divides.
"I sincerely commit myself to the rescue agenda of General Buhari and Professor Osinbajo.
"I declare to you, I will work and dedicate myself so that our ticket succeeds and wins the 2015 election — not for his good, not for my good, not even for the party's good but for the good of our nation."
Hahahahahahahahahaha!
So our REFORMER offered TINUBU the vice presidential slot? So Buhari really, really, realy thought offering a goat custody of the yam barn was the best way to reform the barn? I hear!
Do you now understand why our country is in deep trouble?
Bola Ahmed Tinubu is the National leader of the APC - the change agent. Reflect upon that. And after you are through laughing, start weeping. We are not serious!
Tinubu really thought himself qualified to be vice president of, not a jail yard, but of a real country? Really? Seriously?
We are not a serious people. I have to say that Tinubu is a very lucky man. He has all the newspapers in the South West in his pocket. He and the APC have virtually all public intellectuals looking the other way. And somehow he has conned many Yoruba into false expectations about leading Nigeria. Which leads to provocative Facebook posts like this from Nwachukwu Ugochukwu:
"The Yoruba always want to turn logic on its head. If Buhari was coming out from PDP and GEJ from APC, honestly, we would have been bombarded with how evil Buhari was and how he was a dictator, jailing, killing innocent people.
We would have heard about how he was poor but uses bulletproof cars, poor but uses a private jet. We would have heard about how 2 billion dollars disappeared and appeared in his London account.
...
If Tinubu, a man with a fake name, a known drug baron whose case is still in the USA, was the leader of another tribe, Nigerians would have been bombarded with how evil such a tribe is and how they worship money.
If Tinubu, a man without an ordinary O level WAEC results was the political leader of another tribe in Nigeria, be it Hausa, Igbo etc and belongs to a different political party than our "saintly" tribe, we would have been bombarded with how such people are religious and ethnic bigots.
If GEJ was in APC, Yoruba professors would have come out enmasse to teach Nigerians that truly stealing is not the same as corruption as you cannot use the words interchangeably. While some form of stealing can be corruption, one can comfortably say "all Nigerians are corrupt" but one cannot say "all Nigerians are thieves".
The Yoruba (not all of them as I have faith in the majority like Ekiti, Ondo, etc) have always sought to deceive those Nigerians who will listen to their ever changing values.
They started the infamous cross-carpeting that introduced tribalism in Nigerian politics.
Deceive who you can but not me. The whole "corruption" thing was created in the media immediately the formed APC to deceive their brothers into believing GEJ is corrupt. How can a man like Tinubu talk about corruption?"
He has made many compelling points. The truth hurts.
Anyway, read the rest of the article:
http://www.punchng.com/news/tinubu-pledges-to-support-buhari-osinbajo/
- Ikhide
Stalk my blog at www.xokigbo.com<http://www.xokigbo.com/>
Follow me on Twitter: @ikhide
Join me on Facebook: www.facebook.com/ikhide<http://www.facebook.com/ikhide>
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University of Bayreuth
D-95440 Bayreuth
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There is enough in the world for everyone's need but not for everyone's greed.
---Mohandas Gandhi
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There is enough in the world for everyone's need but not for everyone's greed.
---Mohandas Gandhi
--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
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Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
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Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue+subscribe@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
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For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
There is enough in the world for everyone's need but not for everyone's greed.
---Mohandas Gandhi
--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue+subscribe@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
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Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue+subscribe@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
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Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue+subscribe@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
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Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue+subscribe@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
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