Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Between the APC and the PDC: Living with the illusion of change

John: 

I see your point. But imperialism, legality, and "informed consent" are incompatible with the colonial enterprise. And as a jurist, you know that the principle or notion of informed consent is only a by- product of the post World War 2, post Nuremberg order. And even then this principle has still not constrained Great Powers and the forces of imperialism in their plunder and misguided adventures in the lands of black and brown. Thank you. 

F.  

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 2, 2015, at 4:58 PM, John Mbaku <jmbaku@weber.edu> wrote:

OA:

The issue is for me is not whether European colonialism did some good or not. The main issue is that colonialism was an illegal enterprise imposed on the peoples of the African territories without their informed consent. Whether some people eventually benefited from it does not justify its imposition. You will recall that during apartheid in South Africa, the Afrikaners argued that Africans in South Africa were better off under apartheid than their counterparts in other parts of the continent. Similar arguments were made in the southern U.S. states about slavery. These arguments do not justify the enslavement of one group of people by another. 

On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 11:36 AM, Anunoby, Ogugua <AnunobyO@lincolnu.edu> wrote:

It amazes me that anyone on this forum would work from their answer, to the question. It is one thing to read a contribution. It is another to understand it. It is yet another to appreciate it.
Colonialism did some good. Only ignorance or prejudice will cause an attentive person to deny that colonialism did some good, in my opinion. Is that to say that being colonized should be a preferred state to not being colonized? I do not think so but everyone must decide for themselves. Nigerians did not choose their colonial masters. It is arguable that Nigerians have never voted in a truly free and fair elections. If this is so, they have therefore never truly chosen their government and leaders. Is the latter really different and better than the former? A robbery victim is a robbery victim regardless of who robbed them. In some cases, the house robber may cause the greater pain and loss. Wrong is not less wrong because the offender is in-house. Pain is not less painful because its inflictor is local. What is the value of an alternative reality if it is not better and might in fact be worse?
Progressive former colonized people, after independence, successfully take advantage of the good in colonialism, build/improve on them, and created achieving societies. The less progressive people regress while gloating in the vacuous euphoria of independence.

oa
-----Original Message-----
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com [mailto:usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Segun Ogungbemi
Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2015 2:00 AM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Between the APC and the PDC: Living with the illusion of change

oa,
That our leaders have not performed to expectation of the governed since after independence does not make anyone to prefer colonialism.
The pride of being a free individual with dignity is more important than colonialism with its so called development.
Those of us who were born many years before independence still know the horror of colonialism. My father told me the dehumanized labor  experienced under the British rule.
May we never go through it anymore.

Prof. Segun Ogungbemi

> On Apr 1, 2015, at 9:42 PM, "Anunoby, Ogugua" <AnunobyO@lincolnu.edu> wrote:
>
> Come on SO.
> Colonialism did some good. I believe that everyone who has paid attention knows this to be true. The subject should be stare-decisis in a manner of speaking.
> Given the abundant development opportunities, resources, and technology that have been available to Nigeria and Nigerians since independence from Great Britain in 1960, it is very arguable that the country has not made commensurate progress. This failure is even more evident and embarrassing when Nigeria is compared with some peer and sub-peer colonized countries in 1960. There is little question that Nigeria has not lived up to her billing at independence. If the truth be spoken, she has failed to meet most expectations of her, at independence. The disappointment many older Nigerians feel about their country, is not nostalgic in my opinion.
> "Absolutely wrong" seems to me therefore, to be hyperbolic.
>
> oa
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Segun
> Ogungbemi
> Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2015 12:54 PM
> To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
> Cc: USAAfrica Dialogue
> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Between the APC and the PDC:
> Living with the illusion of change
>
> "Nigeria was quite honestly better off under white rule; that is exactly what our black rulers have proven to their eternal shame."
> Ikhide, you are absolutely wrong. The British looted our resources to develop their country. Tell me how many miles of roads, hospitals, dispensaries, schools etc did they build before independence? How many jobs did they create for our people?
> They forced our people to pay taxes and those who could not pay were put in local confinement. They introduced divide and rule to cause disunity and harmony among the people. That legacy of divide and rule is still our yoke of burden. Colonialism is perpetually evil. It violates the rights of individuals and   takes away human dignity and pride. It takes away the identity of the people colonized.
> With Nigerians being in charge of their destiny we are better off today than what we had been before independence. We have freedom and we govern ourselves using the so called democracy which was not alien to our forebears.
> It is true that we have bad leaders but the British have had their worse leaders in the past and with time  they improved their instruments of governance.
> Ours is not a history of accident in isolation. Gradually we will get there. The first step is to get the leadership right and the rest will follow.
> We must change the negative orientation of Ikhide and his group of intellectual bigots who see nothing good in their country.
>
> Prof. Segun Ogungbemi
>
>> On Apr 1, 2015, at 9:39 AM, "'Ikhide' via USA Africa Dialogue Series" <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>
>> Nigeria was quite honestly better off under white rule; that is
>> exactly what our black rulers have proven to their eternal shame
>
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JOHN MUKUM MBAKU, ESQ.
J.D. (Law), Ph.D. (Economics)
Graduate Certificate in Environmental and Natural Resources Law
Nonresident Senior Fellow, The Brookings Institution
Attorney & Counselor at Law (Licensed in Utah)
Brady Presidential Distinguished Professor of Economics & Willard L. Eccles Professor of Economics and John S. Hinckley Fellow
Department of Economics
Weber State University
1337 Edvalson Street, Dept. 3807
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(801) 626-7442 Phone
(801) 626-7423 Fax

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