Oga Okechukwu Ukaga,
Your argument is clear enough and giving the examples stated you are logically consistent and have proved your point beyond any possibility of refutation; your advice to Ogbeni Kadiri is cautionary.
Dead men don't smoke marijuana, true, so, for example, we cannot truthfully attribute a statement to a person who died long before the alleged statement was supposed to have been made by him, nor can those who are presently with the glorious ancestors "ope their ruby lips" to defend themselves when wrongfully lambasted. Point taken?
Let us imagine that we are in a court of law.
In effect, by analogy, we can argue that it is immaterial whether e.g. Jesus of Nazareth said "all men are mortal" before or after his crucifixion and that what is important is that he said so. This would not necessarily be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, because part of the truth would be determined by WHEN he said it and as you know, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, although, to some of the faithful, he is still very much alive and we should not throw away the resurrection story, throw away the baby with the bathwater…
Of course, in the not so hypothetical example which we are discussing, it is not Ogbeni Kadiri's testimony that is being scrutinized I should think that the proper focus should be on the veracity or the authenticity of Muhammadu Buhari's alleged statement that is under microscopic scrutiny…
And what do you have to say about the credibility of the witness who habitually/ consistently – as per the examples quoted, either deliberately fabricates dates in order to mislead or in any case inadvertently misleads by his lying misdeeds such as:
"SANI ABACHA BECAME NIGERIA'S HEAD OF STATE THROUGH A COUP RULING FROM 1983 TO 1985." Is this not a serious distortion of Nigeria's history? And you want to excuse the Great Dr. Toyin Adepoju for this mischievous piece of misinformation? Just imagine the havoc done to a gullible, unsuspecting foreign audience?
If I had not been in Nigeria on New Year's Eve of 1983 I might have believed the Great Adepoju even when he was lying (as usual) …
You are free to "rest your case" all you want , even when Ogbeni Kadiri has succeeded in chiseling away at the credibility of Adepoju as a reliable witness and my dear Sir, surely, you cannot fault Ogbeni Kadiri for doing so , can you?
More importantly, you have still not dismantled the plausibility, psychological or otherwise based on Ogbeni Kadiri's reasoning with regard to what he dubs a fake interview of General Adekunle by one Rudolph Baumann. As we all know, especially in this age of propaganda, the truth is usually the first casualty of war
I have known Ogbeni Kadiri a long time and I should be wary of the decapitating majesty of his Excalibur, if I were you.
Loonta.
Cornelius
On Friday, 24 April 2015 21:43:26 UTC+2, Okechukwu Ukaga wrote:
"...but you fail to make the point that you set out to make: that disagreement "with some points in or aspects of a given story does not automatically mean that the story is false or fake. " -Cornelius Hamelberg
Here is the point: Just because Abacha died on June 8, 1998 and the tenth anniversary of Abacha's death was June 8, 2008, does not mean that Buhari could not have made the statement credited to him. He could have made that statement, on 5th of June 2008 or June 8, 2008, or any other date for that matter. (I AM NOT SAYING THAT HE DID. I am simply saying that quibbling with dates and finding an error in that is not a foolproof way of disputing the allegation that Buhari made the statement at all, which was the substantive issue. Hence, my point that disagreement "with some points in or aspects of a given story does not automatically mean that the story is false or fake.
"Indeed, dead men cannot speak: therefore (elementary logic) Brother Kadiri rightly concluded: Buhari could not have made the statement credited to him on the 5th of June 2008 since Abacha died on June 8, 1998 and the tenth anniversary of Abacha's death was June 8, 2008." Cornelius Hamelberg
Yes, dead men cannot talk, but the living can. Not only was Buhari alive in 2008, he is still alive today. Being among the living therefore he could talk and could have said anything he wanted to say. Clearly, one needs better argument to discredit a claim that someone said something than just quibbling with dates or turning the "dead men cannot talk" logic on its head. Hence, my point again that disagreement "with some points in or aspects of a given story does not automatically mean that the story is false or fake.
I rest my case,
OU
On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 11:33 AM, Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com> wrote:Oga Okechukwu Ukaga,
Please permit me the privilege – to save myself the agony of my mentor Ogbeni Kadiri taking out his Excalibur to fence with you.
I notice how painstakingly you have quoted the indices stacked up against Toyin Vincent Adepoju, with the aim of showing that according to the criteria of judgment laid down by Ogbeni Kadiri, he should get the bitter taste of his own medicine – but you fail to make the point that you set out to make: that disagreement "with some points in or aspects of a given story does not automatically mean that the story is false or fake. "
Indeed, dead men cannot speak: therefore (elementary logic) Brother Kadiri rightly concluded:
"Buhari could not have made the statement credited to him on the 5th of June 2008 since Abacha died on June 8, 1998 and the tenth anniversary of Abacha's death was June 8, 2008."
The cosmological Adepoju is used probably used to reading synchronicity but he too must realize that events usually take place sequentially and even ordinary mortals like him cannot be at more than one place at a time. Therefore Ogbeni Kadiri's series of watertight conclusions which you quote so accurately
The matter is clear : Neither our late great Chief Obafemi Awolowo nor General Chukwuemeka Odumegwu-Ojukwu (Ikemba Nnewi) are with us today to defend themselves against any lawful or unlawful accusations that can be made against either of them - based on ignorance or spitefulness or even ethnic prejudice. That being the case, irrespective of accuracy/ inaccuracy in reporting or assuming their date of departure, they are not here to defend themselves and only well-meaning others can do so, on their behalf.
As pointed out by Ogbeni Kadiri, Mr. Toyin Adepoju's many factual errors concerning Brother Muhammadu Buhari - whether based on ignorance or a deliberate heart-felt spitefulness are woeful accusations against the living - and there Sir lays the difference.
The subject matter is not mystical, theological or even theatrical ( requiring a suspension of disbelieve) therefore re - "any part of a submission that he wants to argue against, he never fails to suggest that the entire submission is wrong" could always apply to debateable propositions about the structure of reality when we read stuff such as " Jesus died for your sins " or that he ascended bodily into the stratosphere – as witnessed ( according to the Gospels) by many….
As Johnny Cochran famously quipped, "If the glove don't fit you must acquit"
The discussion can proceeed from here. All the above is sincerely said and nonetheless liable to correction.
Cornelius Hamelberg
On Friday, 24 April 2015 02:52:37 UTC+2, Okechukwu Ukaga wrote:".....And a gentle reminder that no one is beyond mistakes and that a factual or proven error in one part of a submission should not necessary mean that the entire submission should be judged as erroneous. I bring this up because, on this list, I have noticed that whenever brother Salimonu Kadiri can point to a mistake in any part of a submission that he wants to argue against, he never fails to suggest that the entire submission is wrong because the writer cannot even get his or her facts straight in that erroneous aspect. Are we to judge him by the same standard in this case? " -OU
"On the mistake on the year of death of Awolowo, Okechukwu Ukaga seized the opportunity to build a thatched house thus, "I have noticed that whenever brother Salimonu Kadiri can point to a mistake in any part of a submission that he wants to argue against, he never fails to suggest that the entire submission is wrong..." Now you are attributing false suggestion to me but falsehood is like a thatched house, no matter how neatly the stalks are arranged, it will inevitably rain through. It is now up to you to tell readers when I made the suggestion(s) you credited to me!!" -Salimonu Kadiri
Here are a few examples-
Responding to Oluwatoyin Adepoju on 12/27/14 Kadiri wrote "In order to buttress his assertion that Buhari made the declaration on Abacha's non looting era, Oluwatoyin Adepoju fraudulently (or is it dishonestly) wrote, "SANI ABACHA BECAME NIGERIA'S HEAD OF STATE THROUGH A COUP RULING FROM 1983 TO 1985." Oluwatoyin Adepoju should get it into his skull once and for all that the government of President Shehu Shagari was overthrown on December 31, 1983, whereby a military government headed by Mohammadu Buhari was installed. Therefore, it is a deliberate lie to write that Sani Abacha was head of State from 1983-1985. However, I hereby endeavour to update the political knowledge of Oluwatoyin Adepoju about when Abacha became Head of State in Nigeria. General Muhammadu Buhari was overthrown on the 27th of August 1985 and was thereafter succeeded by General Ibrahim Babangida who *stepped aside* in 1993, following the controversy after the annulled June 12, 1993, Presidential election. Babangida was succeeded by an unelected civilian,Ernest Shonekan, who was overthrown before the end of year 1993 by Sani Abacha that became Head of State. …..In his macabre act of wilful misrepresentation, Oluwatoyin Adepoju regaled us in paragraph 6 of his diatribe against Buhari thus, "BUHARI MADE THIS DECLARATION ON THE 5TH OF JUNE 2008, AT THE 10TH YEAR COMMEMORATION IN KANO OF THE DEATH OF SANI ABACHA, as reported among other resources by Ibrahim Shuaibu in his article *Abacha Never Stole, say Buhari, Babangida,* in This Day news magazine on the 9th of June 2008 and republished in AllAfrica.com." Buhari could not have made the statement credited to him on the 5th of June 2008 since Abacha died on June 8, 1998 and the tenth anniversary of Abacha's death was June 8, 2008.
Responding to Toyin Adepuju on 01/12/15 Kadiri wrote " Before Oluwatoyin Adepoju can challenge Buhari's educational background, he should, I am sorry to say, learn how not to spell COLLEGE as COLLAGE!!"
Responding to Paul Oranika on 9/19/14 Kadiri wrote "Your excerpts from purported interview of General Benjamin Adekunle by the German Reporter, Randolph Baumann of STERN MAGAZINE does not require a qualification in psychology to discern that the interview was a fake. Randolph Baumann must have sat down somewhere to construct his interview without ever talking or meeting General Adekunle. To begin with, there were no *European Humanitarian Assistance programs authorized through the Federal Government* as at August 18, 1968, because the Nigerian Red Cross was able to handle the humanitarian needs in all the territories captured by the Nigerian forces. Moreover, the starvation problem in the Biafra enclave was not internationally known until the end of September 1968. Even as at the end of September 1968, Ojukwu did not see starving Biafrans. Therefore, while addressing Biafra Consultative Assembly at the end of September 1968 he said, "Those governments motivated by humanitarian considerations have a responsibility now to ensure that Biafrans are enabled to defend themselves by providing them the wherewithal so to do ( Biafra: Ojukwu's Selected Speeches, Vol.1, p. 357)" Obviously, Ojukwu did not need any humanitarian programme for the starving Biafrans but arms. The reply credited to Adekunle by Randolph Baumann on the (non existing) European Humanitarian Assistance programmes in Nigeria was ridiculous and laughable. This is because the seat of the Federal Government headed by General Yakubu Gowon was Lagos. The Lagos State Government headed by Brigadier Mobolaji Johnson had the seat of his government in the outskirt of Lagos. The Governors of Western and Midwest States respectively were General Adebayo and Colonel Samuel Ogbemudia. How then would Adekunle be telling Rudolph Baumann that he was ruling Lagos to Cameroon border? If Mr Baumann had been in Nigeria to conduct the interview, in reality, he would not have expressed himself the way he did because he would have discovered that General Adekunle did not rule Lagos up to Cameroon's border with Nigeria at the time in question."
Again, my point remains that just because you, brother Kadiri, disagree with some points in or aspects of a given story does not automatically mean that the story is false or fake.
Respectfully,
OU
On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 12:12 PM, Salimonu Kadiri <ogunl...@hotmail.com> wrote:--Placing the death of Awolowo to 1985 instead of 1987 is a mistake that I have already admitted after Segun Ogungbemi's observation and correction. Relevant to Danjuma's statement about Ojukwu and my response to Ogugua Anunoby, an unprejudiced reader will observe that what is important in my reference to Awolowo is that he was unjustly accused of committing genocide long after his death. That he died is never in dispute. Just last year, Ogugua Anunoby and a fellow repeated the allegation of genocide against Awolowo, while commenting on the death of Brigadier Benjamin Adekunle, who could not defend himself just as Ojukwu could not against Danjuma. Apart from the mistake about the year of death of Awolowo, I challenge you, Okechukwu Ukaga, or any other person to point out any other factual error(s) in my comments on the subject matter.On the mistake on the year of death of Awolowo, Okechukwu Ukaga seized the opportunity to build a thatched house thus, "I have noticed that whenever brother Salimonu Kadiri can point to a mistake in any part of a submission that he wants to argue against, he never fails to suggest that the entire submission is wrong..." Now you are attributing false suggestion to me but falsehood is like a thatched house, no matter how neatly the stalks are arranged, it will inevitably rain through. It is now up to you to tell readers when I made the suggestion(s) you credited to me!!
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 09:55:15 -0500
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Danjuma and that Ojukwu comment.
From: ukag...@umn.edu
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com.....And a gentle reminder that no one is beyond make mistakes and that a factual or proven error in one part of a submission should not necessary mean that the entire submission should be judged as erroneous. I bring this up because, on this list, I have noticed that whenever brother Salimonu Kadiri can point to a mistake in any part of a submission that he wants to argue against, he never fails to suggest that the entire submission is wrong because the writer cannot even get his or her facts straight in that erroneous aspect. Are we to judge him by the same standard in this case?OUOn Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 10:46 PM, Segun Ogungbemi <segun...@gmail.com> wrote:It was the of the pen and not of the mind.
Prof. Segun OgungbemiMistake acknowledged. Regret to have shorten Awo's life by two years.
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Danjuma and that Ojukwu comment.
From: segun...@gmail.com
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 04:24:37 +0100
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.comAwolowo died in 1985. Pa Awolowo Died: May 9, 1987, Ikenne, Nigeria. Please note the correction.
Prof. Segun OgungbemiAwolowo died in 1985, and as late as last year
--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index. html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com .
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout .
--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index. html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com .
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout .
--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index. html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com .
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout .
--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index. html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com .
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout .
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index. html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com .
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout .
--Okechukwu Ukaga, MBA, PhD
Executive Director, Northeast Minnesota Sustainable Development PartnershipExtension Professor, University of Minnesota ExtensionAdjunct Professor, Geography Department, University of Minnesota - Duluth114 Chester Park, 31 W. College Street, Duluth, MN 55812Website: www.rsdp.umn.edu Phone: 218-341-6029Book Review Editor, Environment, Development and Sustainability (www.springer.com/10668),
"You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete." - Richard Buckminster Fuller--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index. html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com .
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout .
--Okechukwu Ukaga, MBA, PhD
Executive Director, Northeast Minnesota Sustainable Development PartnershipExtension Professor, University of Minnesota ExtensionAdjunct Professor, Geography Department, University of Minnesota - Duluth114 Chester Park, 31 W. College Street, Duluth, MN 55812Website: www.rsdp.umn.edu Phone: 218-341-6029Book Review Editor, Environment, Development and Sustainability (www.springer.com/10668),
"You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete." - Richard Buckminster Fuller
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue+subscribe@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
No comments:
Post a Comment