Ken,
We don't have to have common ground. Americans don't have to have common ground. What we need is more frank discussions about white supremacy/racism, whatever our understanding is, without worrying about the sensibilities of white people.
African Americans are frustrated. We are weary. We are angry. Our collective patience is growing thin. If African Americans are still fighting to be treated as fully human in 2015, something is terribly wrong.
America's fundamental problem, as I have stated several times in the US Africa forum, is that (most, but not all) white Americans have not yet had the courage and moral fortitude to grapple with and resolve gross injustices that have festered since 1776.
kzs
well i agree with this, kwame.--
maybe we can find a common ground in viewing issues.
to come, briefly, to one of the conversations i had. it was at a luncheon for the women's caucus, and i was seated next to a middle aged black woman, who, as it turned out, was from charleston. the conversation turned to racial politics in the south versus thenorth, and she told me that she found things had changed, that the racism i expected to find on coming there was no longer marking people;s lives (mind you, i was evoking the images of a segregated south in my mind). charleston was wealthy, enormous building etc everywhere. she saw the changes as marking lives of people like herself. i said, well, ibet out in the countryside it was worse. she said she never had any bad experiences in the countryside. i had a set of friends who weremixed race, and i said, i knew they had been particularly marked by uncomfortable experiences, and no way on earth would they be driving through the rural south.
she told me her husband was white.
at that, i shut up.
truth is, i knew too little to have an opinion.
i had asked two cabbies, a waiter, a maitre d, some others. a few were white, most black. the guy from the bronx was really the most enthusiastic about how well things were going there. the second black cabbie less so; but even then, for whom, things had changed for the better.
no one would dispute that structural racism exists, in subtle ways, or not sublte ways.
i associate the term white supremacy with that old-time south, one which has long given way to the south of new wealth and capitalism.
but the heart of capitalism is cold to the disadvantaged or poor, and blacks in the new south include many who are structurally oppressed. that's what the nyt article of today says.
maybe in places like atlanta it is different, but i doubt itknowing the wealth of the white suburbs marks the difference with the urban center.
ken
On 6/28/15 4:12 PM, kwame zulu shabazz wrote:
Ken,
I didn't say your experience of South Carolina was wrong. I simply indicated that my experience in the South Carolina is very different from yours. However, it is a material fact that Charleston/South Carolina, Mississippi, North Carolina are segregated and severely gentrified.
No, America is not a "binary." Liberal academics love that canard. Fact: there remains a vast gulf between the quality of black and white Americans. Why? Part of the problem is that (many, not all) white Americans expect to have discussions/solutions on terms that are amenable to them.
By many measures, Native Americans are even worse off--which only underscores the problem. There are wealthy blacks and very poor whites. That doesn't invalidate the reality of white supremacy. Just as the existence of "free blacks" didnt invalidate the horrific experiences of black people in the antebellum, Reconstruction, or "Redemption" or the Jim Crow South.
I am saying and will continue to say that racism is still very much entrenched in America. Much of the brute white terror has been done away with and the legal edifice has been mostly overturned, but structural racism/white supremacy is insidious, deadly and persistent.
kzs
On Jun 28, 2015 6:06 AM, "kenneth harrow" <harrow@msu.edu> wrote:--
kwame--
i appreciate your knowledge and insights, but i am afraid that you want to compartmentalize all white.
if i can say for myself, from the start of our dialogues, i've felt as though i am being seen, as you would us see all whites, through a single lens. that lens, reflected in your statement about foner's status, is that of white supremacy.
whites like foner are emblematic, in fact, of the struggle against white surpremacy, in the academy, and no doubt in society.
for you, i believe, whites and blacks fall into the binary, 2 camps, no real room for part of this or part of that. as i read you, the whole of american society is one vast racist entity, from which no one can escape.
i don't see people that way; don't see the society that way. in saying that, i am not ignoring the racism which is clearly present; but neither am i ignoring the blacks and whites who are more or less identified by racial markers, and whose participation in and against racist components are far from one-sided.
i am saying all this because i see the forum toyin set up here as a meeting ground for dialogue between africa and the us; it is called, usaafrica, and almost everyone, maybe everyone, on this list has ties in some sense to the usa and to africa. those ties are not defined by race; people are not excluded because of race; and the worlds between the two are not mutually exclusive.
it makes dialogue impossible, then, when someone like myself who might not feel himself to be defined in any simple racial category is thrust back into that space by the accusation of racial bias; or by repudiations of perspectives on the ground that they reflect white supremacy.
i am not denying your experiences or insights. i am interested in what you've learned and know. when you describe the south as marked by deeply entrenched racism, and i stated that my questions in coming to charleston were precisely to examine whether that was still the case, since i expected it, your response invalidates all the answers i received, which was that things had changed considerably. and the answers came from black people living in south carolina.
maybe it was chance that led my to have those answers, in contrast to your experience. you can believe what you will. my mind was open. i wonder whether yours was not.
ken
On 6/28/15 9:07 AM, kwame zulu shabazz wrote:
Ken,--
Foner is not saying anything that African American scholars haven't said equally well. His status, in my view, is at least to some degree a function of white supremacy. Basically, the shooter is not just some fringe element of what is normally a utopia. His racist point of view is shaped by a long ugly history of white terrorism in South Carolina. I would only add that Foner might leave the impression that this more or less a southern issue, when, in fact, it is a national issue (to be fair, I think he makes this clear in other essays I've read). African Americans are still not treated as fully American in the USA. I'm originally California (Inglewood), I can say that white supremacy is still deeply entrenched there too.
I lived and taught in North Carolina and now Mississippi. I've been to South Carolina several times. I have had countless discussions on race and racism with African Americans in the South. I can't recall anyone in South Carolina or elsewhere telling me that "the racism of the past was largely gone." Virtually every black person I have talked to says that anti-black racism is still deeply entrenched in white attitudes, in the schools, in the policing, in the political structures, the economy etc. Many Blacks in the South say they still feel like second class citizens. And they can tell you, for example, what parts of South Carolina or Mississippi or North Carolina that black people avoid for fear of racist attacks. Indeed, one of Rev. Senator Pinckney's last acts prior to being murdered was a strong statement in support of legislation to combat police brutality.
kzs
On Saturday, June 27, 2015 at 10:20:49 AM UTC-5, Kenneth Harrow wrote:i read it all the way through.
pablo, thanks for posting it.
for all my youth, the south represented bigotry. the new south represents change, but my own mental images are hard to change. at the last african lit assn meeting in charleston s.c., i asked everyone from the black taxi driver from the airport to the maitre d of a restaurant and waiter, to my neighbors at the ala meals, how the racism in s.c. stood.
the answers were largely that the racism of the past was largely gone.
i could go into the details of the answers, but they were very compelling.
we all know of fringe maniacs in our own states: michigan is certainly home to lots of bigots, racists, rightwing militia types, etc. but charleston was much richer than anything i've seen in michigan; it was booming, which is why blacks from the north (my first cabbie was from the bronx, to which he swore he would never return from charleston) have headed south. a significant number of blacks from detroit have also headed south--atlanta, texas, south carolina. rich states with jobs, and places where old-school racism no longer runs the show. places with black mayors, and a new south reputation.
between that reputation and the current massacre, how are we to understand the south of today?
so foner raises the question all historians raise: how do we relate to the past. the man from the bronx related to it much as i did since he was of my generation, and we actually shared a lot. but young people have a considerably different sense of the presence of the past in their lives. to them it is ancient history, not contemporary memory. foner resituates that relationship into one we, as academics or intellectuals, must read in more than a personal way.
i don't know how to do this because, first, i am not an historian of the american past (i know african history much better than american history), and second, i am not from the south. i would love to know how others on this list, who have lived or who live in the south, relate to foner's posting. foner is the preeminent historian of this topic. how do his words resonate with your experiences or knowledge?
ken
On 6/27/15 1:13 PM, Pablo wrote:
Interesting historical piece by Foner.P
Sent from my grandfather's typewriter
Begin forwarded message:
From: Warren Crichlow <WCri...@edu.yorku.ca>
Date: June 26, 2015 at 10:02:31 PM EDT
To: "verm...@gmail.com" <verm...@gmail.com>, "pida...@yorku.ca Idahosa" <pida...@yorku.ca>
Subject: Speaking of Eric Foner
--Published on The Nation (http://www.thenation.com)
The Historical Roots of Dylann Roof's Racism
Eric Foner | June 25, 2015Exclude left body blockDylann Roof, the accused murderer of nine men and women in the Emanuel AME Church in Charleston, is clearly a disturbed individual. Yet the language he drew on to justify his crime demonstrates the enduring power of historical myths and memories. Before opening fire on his victims, Roof reportedly explained his actions by saying, "You are raping our women and taking over the country." This supposed need to save white women from black rapists has deep historical roots. It was invoked to legitimate the violent overthrow of Reconstruction, the nation's first experiment in interracial democracy. Black victims of lynching in South Carolina and elsewhere were often described as rapists, even though, as the anti-lynching crusader Ida B. Wells pointed out, in nearly every case the accusation was a "bare lie." A black rapist was a pivotal figure in The Birth of a Nation, the 1915 film that glorified the Ku Klux Klan. Claude Bowers's influential 1929 history of the post–Civil War years, The Tragic Era, described rape in the South as the product of the political rights blacks achieved during Reconstruction—a ludicrous statement in view of the countless black women who suffered sexual assault under slavery. Roof's complaint that blacks were "taking over" the state echoes justifications for racist violence during and after Reconstruction and the disfranchisement of black voters in the 1890s.
Roof has a sense of history, warped though it may be. He claims to have read "hundreds" of slave narratives, all demonstrating, to his satisfaction, how benevolently slaves were treated—an idea long discredited by historians, but still encountered on white-supremacist websites and conservative talk-radio shows. He had himself photographed not only with the flags of the Confederacy, apartheid South Africa, and Rhodesia, during its short-lived period of independence under white domination, but at a slave plantation. He knows enough to have chosen the Emanuel Church, long a vital center of black life and politics, to strike his blow against the black community.
Emanuel was the place of worship not only of Denmark Vesey, who plotted a slave insurrection in Charleston in 1822, but also of the Reverend Richard H. Cain, who occupied Emanuel's pulpit during Reconstruction. Like his successor the murder victim Clementa Pinckney, Cain used the church as a springboard to public service, including a term in the State Senate, where he worked to provide former slaves with access to land. Later, as a member of Congress, Cain rebuked a white Representative who referred to slavery as a civilizing institution for black "barbarians" (not unlike Roof's outlook). His colleague's concept of civilization, Cain replied, seemed to amount to little more than "the lash and whipping post." Unlike Pinckney, Cain did not fall victim to violence, but he and his family lived "in constant fear" and his home was guarded day and night by armed men.
I have taught in South Carolina and lectured in the state numerous times. I have unfailingly been treated with courtesy and respect. Roof does not speak for all the white people in the state. Nonetheless, South Carolina has never really come to terms with its tortured history. Here are a few highlights of the state's extreme pro-slavery, white-supremacist past. In 1776, South Carolina delegates to the Continental Congress forced Thomas Jefferson to remove a clause condemning slavery from the Declaration of Independence. In 1787, South Carolinians were primarily responsible for the Constitution's fugitive slave clause and provision allowing the importation of slaves from abroad to continue for 20 additional years. Until 1860, a tight-knit coterie of plantation owners controlled the state; they did not even allow the white citizens to vote in presidential elections (the legislature chose the state's members of the Electoral College).
Before the Civil War, South Carolina was one of two states, along with Mississippi, where nearly a majority of white families owned slaves, and had the largest black majority in its population (nearly 60 percent in 1860). This combination produced a unique brand of extremism in defense of slavery. The state was the birthplace of nullification, the first to secede, and the site of the first shot of the Civil War. During Reconstruction, black Carolinians enjoyed a brief moment of civil equality and genuine political power, but this ended with a violent "Redemption," followed by decades of Jim Crow. More recently, South Carolina led the Southern walkout from the 1948 Democratic National Convention to protest a civil-rights plank in the party's platform, and supported its native son, Strom Thurmond, who ran as the "Dixiecrat" candidate for president. In 1964, it was one of five states of the Deep South to vote for Barry Goldwater, paving the way for the Republicans' "Southern strategy" of appealing to white resentment against black civil-rights gains.
Nor is the Charleston massacre the only instance of mass murder of South Carolinian blacks. During Reconstruction the Ku Klux Klan launched a reign of terror in parts of the state that led to dozens of deaths. The Hamburg Massacre of 1876, where several blacks were murdered in cold blood, was a crucial step in the overthrow of Reconstruction. At Orangeburg in 1968, officers of the state highway patrol killed three black college students and wounded over 20 others. Unfortunately, this incident has been largely forgotten, unlike the killings of white students two years later at Kent State.
Ideas about history legitimate and shape the present, and public presentations of history tell us a great deal about a society's values. As in other Southern states, statues of Confederate generals, Klansmen, and segregationists dot the South Carolina landscape. Although a statue was erected recently in Charleston to Denmark Vesey, and historic sites like Drayton Hall plantation and the National Park Service's Fort Sumter site have revised their presentations to deal directly with the black experience, South Carolina has no monument to the victims of slavery and hardly any to black leaders of Reconstruction or other eras. It took until 1998 for a portrait of Jonathan J. Wright, who served during Reconstruction as the first African-American justice of the South Carolina Supreme Court, to join the paintings of all the state's white justices in the court building.
This warped public display of history confronts South Carolinians, white and black, every day with a stark message about who rules the state. South Carolina's leaders cannot abolish the hate that spews forth on the Internet. But if they are serious about changing the way the state remembers and represents its history, let them erect not only a memorial to Reverend Pinckney and the other victims but also statues of the black leaders of Reconstruction and of courageous figures of the civil rights era such as Levi Pearson, who in 1947 filed suit against his child's school district to protest the inadequate funding of black education and saw his home attacked in retaliation.
The burgeoning movement to take down the Confederate flag in South Carolina and other states is an important first step. Even after it is gone, however, the public display of history in South Carolina will remain biased and one-dimensional. That, among many other things, needs to change.
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