RE: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Ancient Egyptian Pharaohs related to Ugandans?

There are scholars- Western scholars I might add, who seem to have a problem with associating great, positive moments, accomplishments, and events of history with Black Africa.  The ethnicity of ancient Egyptians should not be a matter of great moment if not for the fact that there are scholars, Western scholars I might add, who go to great lengths to argue that the ancient Egyptians were not Black Africans. Their motivation seems to be that the civilization they created was so advanced and outstanding for its time, that they could not be Black Africans. It does not matter to them for example, that their scholarship may be false and grossly misleading.

Remember the trouble many scholars in the Western World continue to take, streaming discordant shreds of evidence, in their endeavor to convince the world that Cleopatra was Greek and not Egyptian? For them, Cleopatra was too beautiful and smart to be Egyptian- African. Should her ethnicity matter as much as they make it out to be? I do not think so.  Her role in history after all was set, not by her ethnicity but her beauty and guile. She is said to be a beautiful, sophisticated, manipulative charmer. Those attributes are not exclusive to Greeks? All through time, historical characters (women) of similar beauty and guile, have existed in all parts of the world dominated by men. They continue to exist.  

Blowbacks are necessary to counter the misinformation and misrepresentations of history. It is important to report history correctly. If there was no question, an answer would not follow. Gloria's posting, whether or not it is historical and/or ideological, serves this purpose. It is even more so if it is the correct version of history which it might be. She is helping to counter Western historian or anthropologist who pleasure in  characterize the ancient Egyptians (of the Pharaohs) as not being Black Africans.

Ken must know that there are scholars- Western scholars for the most part  whose stock-in-trade is the denigration of all that is not native to their race as they narrowly define it. One wishes that all scholar have a more enlightened view of history, life, and our common humanity which view Ken seems to me to have. One would expect them to know that setting people needlessly apart by race especially (no one chooses their race by the way), has done more harm than good. Yes it has, if facts and the truth matter. That enterprise is one that continues to be successful in helping to make the world a worse place than it needs to be, for all who inhabit her.

 

oa

 

oa

 

From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com [mailto:usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of kenneth harrow
Sent: Friday, July 31, 2015 8:56 AM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Ancient Egyptian Pharaohs related to Ugandans?

 

there are many other questions. are they historical? ideological? when gloria asserts that egyptians were black africans, what does that mean? where on the line that carries people across the sahara does black fade into white? where is the deciding line? are we to measure noses again? i've seen berber families with lighter skinned and darker skinned siblings, as indeed exists throughout the entire sahel. what does that really mean? when was there not mixing of peoples?
and when egypt is seen as the source of civilization, do we mean civilization as in the english meaning, which carries roman roots? i always thought writing, big buildings, large governments were european definitions of civilization, leaving poor old Umuofia, Things Fall Apart, out in the rain to be beaten on by european values.
when the palm oil of words in achebe's texts is eaten, is that not some other kind of artifact of "civilization" that bears all the sophistication of aristotelian thought?
it isn't a question of who built the biggest structures, but rather, who is defining the criteria for "civilization." is it such a colonial notion, can't we just throw it out and start on better footing. let's start with Camara Laye's L'Enfant noir. there's lots of civilization there, far from the coast.

i don't buy the afrocentrist need to find authentic origins, much less to locate them in egypt.
lastly, if egyptians came from black africa, who didn't? didn't we all originate somewhere around the horn, many tens of thousands of years ago? who is the outsider to this african heritage?
ken (ok, i am not a historian; i read novels and watch movies....)

On 7/31/15 2:58 PM, awori wrote:

Not being a historian of any kind---I would not hazard to give a factual response to the views below. I however would like to raise issues that the author and others could consider. When you refer to ancient Egypt---what exactly do you mean? What was ancient ancient Nubia---what distinguishes ancient Nubia from the so called ancient Egypt?  Finally according to archaeological and scientific findings---what was the progression of the Nubia/Egyptian civilizations---was it from the source of the Nile--Northwards or the other way round? Answers to these questions might (probably) help answer some of the quetion.  

Awori   

On Monday, July 27, 2015 at 8:38:41 AM UTC+3, Chambi Chachage wrote:

Gloria Emeagwali et al., do you agree with Lawrence Mbogoni below?

 

---

From: "'Mbogoni, Lawrence' mbog...@wpunj.edu [Wanazuoni]" <Wana...@yahoogroups.com>
To: "Wana...@yahoogroups.com" <Wana...@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, July 27, 2015 12:29 AM
Subject: RE: [Wanazuoni] Ancient Egyptian Pharaohs related to Ugandans?

 

 

Wanazuoni,

 

I am joining this dialogue rather late. But as a historian of Africa I feel bound to answer Mr. Makakala's concerns about the relationship of ancient Egypt/Nubia and the rest of Africa. Makakala begins with the view that:  "the current North Africa has been shaped mainly by forces which are foreign to the continent. Hence, the fact that the North has produced many scholars for centuries has more to do with the cultures that influenced it rather than [the rest of] Africa." The observation is true to a certain extent. For centuries ancient Egypt was a part of the Mediterranean world and Egypt influenced at the same time it was itself influenced parts of this region especially what is today Israel/Palestine and Greece. Ancient Egypt was an imperial power whose influence extended to the southern fringes of Assyria. Some evidence even suggests that one of the pharaohs conquered and briefly ruled ancient Greece. However, ancient Egypt's imperial endeavors beyond Nubia were thwarted partly by geographical factors and partly by resistance especially along the Red Sea toward Puntland (northern Somalia). Evidently, had ancient Egypt's imperial endeavors succeeded its influence would have been far afield south of Nubia. That said, as part of the Mediterranean world Egypt learnt as it taught neighboring peoples many things. Alexandria was for centuries a center of learning in the region that attracted especially ancient Greek scholars. Herodotus, reputed to be the father of history, deemed it necessary to visit Egypt and left us a very interesting account of his experience of the people and their achievements. In short, scholarly achievements in Egypt and North Africa were/are not just the result of influences from other cultures but are also indigenous to ancient Egypt.

 

Makakala wonders how ancient Egypt and Nubia could have developed so far ahead while none of that development did not leak to the rest of the continent. My response is had ancient Egypt's imperial endeavors southward succeeded its influences would have extended beyond Nubia. But even where Egyptian imperialism was extended, such as in the Levant, there is very little in evidence about Egyptian achievements. There are no pyramids in Lebanon, Israel or Jordan although these areas were once subject to Egyptian imperialism. As for evidence of permanent buildings from anywhere else in Africa comparable to Egypt's there is none except the stone citadels of ancient Zimbabwe. But by permanent buildings I believe Makakala is referring to the Egyptian pyramids. However, most Egyptians built and resided in mud structures. The three pyramids we see today were presumably funerary structures although most if not all pharaohs were buried in underground tombs (Pharaoh Cheops, the builder of the biggest of the threes was not even buried in it).

 

Furthermore, Makakala queries why Africa is considered the exception when it comes to diversity characteristic of Europe and Asia. I wonder who is guilty of his accusation since historians of Africa have highlighted its diversity in peoples, cultures, languages, climates, forms of worship, lifestyles, etc. for quite a while now. Any introductory text about Africa begins with its geographical, cultural, linguistic, and ethnic/racial diversities (Cf. textbooks by Robert July; Robert Collins). No historian worth the name would insist Africa to be uniform.

 

Moreover, I find it interesting that Makakala equates sedentary life with permanent buildings. Rather, it is the rise of agriculture that was the genesis of permanent human settlements not just in Africa but elsewhere in the world. Tending to crops required people to stay put in one place unlike tending to livestock, hence the difference between agricultural and pastoralist societies. Be that as it may, urbanization was not only unique to ancient Egypt on the continent. For an historical account of the process of urbanization in Africa south of the Sahara Makakala can refer to Catherine Vidrovitch's book entitled *Urbanization in Africa.*

Finally, it is puzzling how Makakala equates scripts (i.e. the written word) with sharing of knowledge, skills and innovations and hence development. The privileging of the written word and hence written records as the only sources of history was conclusively debunked by Jan Vansina in his book entitled *The Oral Tradion.* That said, if having a written language is that important, how does one explain the lack of development and political vulnerability of Arabs and the Chinese who, like the Africans, were easily conquered by Europeans despite having written languages of their own?

 

Kila la kheri.

 

Mbogoni

 

__,_._,__

--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue+subscribe@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

-- 

kenneth w. harrow 

faculty excellence advocate

professor of english

michigan state university

department of english

619 red cedar road

room C-614 wells hall

east lansing, mi 48824

ph. 517 803 8839

harrow@msu.edu

--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue+subscribe@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.