a brief observation. anyone who has traveled in the sahara can tell you that the diversity of types that kwame marks in egypt are to be found everywhere south of the coastal plains and mountains. secondly, i don't know how the north could have been considered isolated from the south: the sahara was the sea across which caravans passed since time immemorial. i've seen some of the caravan cities in mauretania, been in the oasis cities in algeria. they go back forever.
that's what confuses me re egypt. from nubia across the "sud"--sudan to egypt, wasn't there always trade, always the passages of people?
lastly, the people who need convincing that they are african are north africans. they reject the label, for obvious reasons. that needs to be addressed. perhaps it is in that same mentality that people want to look outside of egypt for earlier middle eastern civilizations...??
ken
On 8/5/15 12:09 PM, kwame zulu shabazz wrote:
All,--
The African-centered perspective that the ancient Egyptians were Africans (note I didn't use the word "black") is gradually winning converts. Diop's important work erred in the sense that he mistakenly believed that he had to prove that the ancient Egyptians were stereotypically "black" when, in fact, African phenotypes and genotypes are more diverse than anywhere else on the planet. Given the extreme racist bias Diop combated for the whole of his scholarly career, his error is totally understandable.
The DNA evidence is contested. However, according to African American biological anthropologist Shomarka Keita, dna and other biological data of ancient Egyptians clusters with modern African populations. Keita has numerous lectures and publications on the topic available online. See, for example, his lecture "Bio Cultural Origins of Kemet (ancient Egypt)." Also see Sally-Ann Ashton's (Ashton is a curator, Department of Antiquities, Fitzwilliam Museum, Cambridge) talk at the Manchester Museum provocatively titled, "Curating Kemet: Fear of a Black Land." Another vital source is the conference and subsequent edited volume Egypt in its African Context. Read the intro to the book here. The Fitzwilliam Museum in Cambridge is also an excellent source.
To borrow Ken's term, the "split offs" occur when there was a lack of gene flow over thousands of years between populations who migrated out of Africa and were subsequently isolated genetically from their African source and adapted to local environmental pressures. So, for example, the Jarawa and other populations of the Andaman and Nicobar Islands (India) are look stereotypically African--very dark and kinky hair but they don't cluster with African or Asian populations genetically or linguistically because they migrated out of Africa circa 60 kya and lived in isolation from other Asia populations. See, for example, the peer-reviewed article "The Genetic Origins of the Andaman Islanders" (if you can't wade through the article the key phrase is that "phenotypic similarities with African groups are convergent"). And the original settlers of Europe were likely dark skinned Africans who gradually evolved phenotypically to what we now consider European today. The modern European phenotype is only about 10,000 years old.
I also wanted to amplify Mgogoni's important point about Egyptian imperialism (i.e. no comparable pyramid technology in the Levant). Egyptian expansionism only starts in the New Kingdom after expelling the "Hyskos," the first foreign occupiers of the ancient Egyptian dynastic period. The imperial projects seem to have been an effort to create a buffer after regaining sovereignty from the Hyskos. Ancient Egypt was already a thousand years old before it's military campaigns in Asia thus making the claim that ancient Egyptian civilization was somehow an accomplishment of populations outside of the African continent all the more dubious.
Forward ever,
kzs
On Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 6:43:23 AM UTC-5, Kenneth Harrow wrote:gloria
what does dna show? it is something like a tie/relationship at a given
historical moment? (since everyone originated in east africa, wouldn't
we all share dna? if it splits off, when is the moment measured?)
ken
On 8/4/15 6:08 AM, Emeagwali, Gloria (History) wrote:
> Yes ....Dialectical after south to
> north movement and long before
> the Persian,Greek,Roman and
> Arab invasions.Recent DNA/
> molecular biological tests confirm
> Davidson.Will forward one of these.
>
> Gloria
>
>
>
>
> Professor Gloria Emeagwali
> History Department
> CCSU. New Britain. CT 06050
> africahistory.net
> vimeo.com/user5946750/videos
> Gloria Emeagwali's Documentaries on
> Africa and the African Diaspora
> ________________________________________
> From: Emeagwali, Gloria (History)
> Sent: Monday, August 03, 2015 11:06 PM
> To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: RE: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Ancient Egyptian Pharaohs related to Ugandans?
>
> Sorry, ken. I spent the last forty years doing literature.
> You would know better.
>
> Professor Gloria Emeagwali
> History Department
> CCSU. New Britain. CT 06050
> africahistory.net
> vimeo.com/user5946750/videos
> Gloria Emeagwali's Documentaries on
> Africa and the African Diaspora
> ________________________________________
> From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com [usaafric...@googlegroups.com ] On Behalf Of kenneth harrow [har...@msu.edu]
> Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2015 1:42 PM
> To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Ancient Egyptian Pharaohs related to Ugandans?
>
> mario
> how many millions of years ago did davidson write that?
> what is the current history? maybe gloria would know that?
> ken
>
> On 7/31/15 3:44 PM, Mario Fenyo wrote:
> according to Davidson and some others, the relationship was dialectical, from Nubia to Kemet, from Kemet to Nubia.
>
> Respectfully, Mario Fenyo
> ________________________________
> From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <mailto:usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com > [usaafric...@googlegroups.com <mailto:usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com >] on behalf of awori [awori....@gmail.com<mailto:awori....@gmail.com> ]
> Sent: Friday, July 31, 2015 8:58 AM
> To: USA Africa Dialogue Series
> Cc: cham...@yahoo.com<mailto:chambi78@yahoo.com >
> Subject: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Ancient Egyptian Pharaohs related to Ugandans?
>
> Not being a historian of any kind---I would not hazard to give a factual response to the views below. I however would like to raise issues that the author and others could consider. When you refer to ancient Egypt---what exactly do you mean? What was ancient ancient Nubia---what distinguishes ancient Nubia from the so called ancient Egypt? Finally according to archaeological and scientific findings---what was the progression of the Nubia/Egyptian civilizations---was it from the source of the Nile--Northwards or the other way round? Answers to these questions might (probably) help answer some of the quetion.
>
> Awori
>
> On Monday, July 27, 2015 at 8:38:41 AM UTC+3, Chambi Chachage wrote:
> Gloria Emeagwali et al., do you agree with Lawrence Mbogoni below?
>
> ________________________________
> From: "'Mbogoni, Lawrence' mbog...@wpunj.edu<UrlBlockedError.aspx> [Wanazuoni]" <Wana...@yahoogroups.com< UrlBlockedError.aspx>>
> To: "Wana...@yahoogroups.com<UrlBlockedError.aspx>" <Wana...@yahoogroups.com< UrlBlockedError.aspx>>
> Sent: Monday, July 27, 2015 12:29 AM
> Subject: RE: [Wanazuoni] Ancient Egyptian Pharaohs related to Ugandans?
>
>
> Wanazuoni,
>
> I am joining this dialogue rather late. But as a historian of Africa I feel bound to answer Mr. Makakala's concerns about the relationship of ancient Egypt/Nubia and the rest of Africa. Makakala begins with the view that: "the current North Africa has been shaped mainly by forces which are foreign to the continent. Hence, the fact that the North has produced many scholars for centuries has more to do with the cultures that influenced it rather than [the rest of] Africa." The observation is true to a certain extent. For centuries ancient Egypt was a part of the Mediterranean world and Egypt influenced at the same time it was itself influenced parts of this region especially what is today Israel/Palestine and Greece. Ancient Egypt was an imperial power whose influence extended to the southern fringes of Assyria. Some evidence even suggests that one of the pharaohs conquered and briefly ruled ancient Greece. However, ancient Egypt's imperial endeavors beyond Nubia were thwarted partly by geographical factors and partly by resistance especially along the Red Sea toward Puntland (northern Somalia). Evidently, had ancient Egypt's imperial endeavors succeeded its influence would have been far afield south of Nubia. That said, as part of the Mediterranean world Egypt learnt as it taught neighboring peoples many things. Alexandria was for centuries a center of learning in the region that attracted especially ancient Greek scholars. Herodotus, reputed to be the father of history, deemed it necessary to visit Egypt and left us a very interesting account of his experience of the people and their achievements. In short, scholarly achievements in Egypt and North Africa were/are not just the result of influences from other cultures but are also indigenous to ancient Egypt.
>
> Makakala wonders how ancient Egypt and Nubia could have developed so far ahead while none of that development did not leak to the rest of the continent. My response is had ancient Egypt's imperial endeavors southward succeeded its influences would have extended beyond Nubia. But even where Egyptian imperialism was extended, such as in the Levant, there is very little in evidence about Egyptian achievements. There are no pyramids in Lebanon, Israel or Jordan although these areas were once subject to Egyptian imperialism. As for evidence of permanent buildings from anywhere else in Africa comparable to Egypt's there is none except the stone citadels of ancient Zimbabwe. But by permanent buildings I believe Makakala is referring to the Egyptian pyramids. However, most Egyptians built and resided in mud structures. The three pyramids we see today were presumably funerary structures although most if not all pharaohs were buried in underground tombs (Pharaoh Cheops, the builder of the biggest of the threes was not even buried in it).
>
> Furthermore, Makakala queries why Africa is considered the exception when it comes to diversity characteristic of Europe and Asia. I wonder who is guilty of his accusation since historians of Africa have highlighted its diversity in peoples, cultures, languages, climates, forms of worship, lifestyles, etc. for quite a while now. Any introductory text about Africa begins with its geographical, cultural, linguistic, and ethnic/racial diversities (Cf. textbooks by Robert July; Robert Collins). No historian worth the name would insist Africa to be uniform.
>
> Moreover, I find it interesting that Makakala equates sedentary life with permanent buildings. Rather, it is the rise of agriculture that was the genesis of permanent human settlements not just in Africa but elsewhere in the world. Tending to crops required people to stay put in one place unlike tending to livestock, hence the difference between agricultural and pastoralist societies. Be that as it may, urbanization was not only unique to ancient Egypt on the continent. For an historical account of the process of urbanization in Africa south of the Sahara Makakala can refer to Catherine Vidrovitch's book entitled *Urbanization in Africa.*
> Finally, it is puzzling how Makakala equates scripts (i.e. the written word) with sharing of knowledge, skills and innovations and hence development. The privileging of the written word and hence written records as the only sources of history was conclusively debunked by Jan Vansina in his book entitled *The Oral Tradion.* That said, if having a written language is that important, how does one explain the lack of development and political vulnerability of Arabs and the Chinese who, like the Africans, were easily conquered by Europeans despite having written languages of their own?
>
> Kila la kheri.
>
> Mbogoni
>
>
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> kenneth w. harrow
> faculty excellence advocate
> professor of english
> michigan state university
> department of english
> 619 red cedar road
> room C-614 wells hall
> east lansing, mi 48824
> ph. 517 803 8839
> har...@msu.edu<mailto:har...@msu.edu >
>
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--
kenneth w. harrow
faculty excellence advocate
professor of english
michigan state university
department of english
619 red cedar road
room C-614 wells hall
east lansing, mi 48824
ph. 517 803 8839
har...@msu.edu
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
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-- kenneth w. harrow faculty excellence advocate professor of english michigan state university department of english 619 red cedar road room C-614 wells hall east lansing, mi 48824 ph. 517 803 8839 harrow@msu.edu
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