Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - FW: Mandela Is Not My Hero

gloria
what is the reality of race in south africa? i have a hard time thinking
that we have automatic categories. after all, there were blacks who sold
out; whites who died fighting apartheid, and everything in between.
there was a system of white supremacist oppression, and a movement that
included blacks and whites that opposed it. if whites, generally, had it
easier, that was part of the struggle; it didn't invalidate their views
or participation.
if you think of che, for instance, in the cuban revolution, or fidel,
they were not members of the proletariat. neither was marx for that
matter. consciousness is not determined, it is chosen.
do you want to put people into categories automatically based on their
skin? i could understand that in the midst of the struggle, but that
would still be a blinded vision of the world.

gloria, i agree with you that it wasn't a pretty, beautiful rainbow
world; i agree much ugliness marked people and their actions.
i also believe that in the struggle, for all of us, we make choices,
draw lines, and make judgments.
i strongly supported revolutionary causes in my younger years, and still
believe in the goals. but i very much do not believe that the struggle
could permit itself actions of any kind, like torture, like killings
that were not grounded in combat but rather authoritarian judgments, etc.
i might have wanted to rationalize such things in the 60s, but i don't
any more. i would respect a che, a winnie, more, if they admitted that
they had ordered killings unjustly, rather than stating, we had no choice.
as for torture, i wouldn't accept any rationalization for it under any
circumstances.
for me, revolution is not an absolute; total systems are themselves
oppressive.
ken

On 9/2/15 1:40 PM, Emeagwali, Gloria (History) wrote:
>
> "i don't think whites who were part of the struggle are different in their thinking from blacks."harrow
>
>
> That really should be the case in a nice world, but in reality this is not so.
>
> I had the pleasure of interviewing Hosea Jaffe, a bona fide activist within South Africa, and one of the points that he
>
> emphasized was the persistent racism of the white dominated communist party and even Joe Slovo himself.
>
>
> Read Steve Biko's "I write what I like" and you will get ample references to racism within the church
>
> and the student movement. In fact, that is one of the main reasons why SASO was formed.
>
>
> The prisons of this world would be overflowing with the nationalists, rebels and activists who
>
> killed in the struggle to gain independence. You can start with the American revolutionary
>
> war in the fight against the British, and take it from there.
>
>
> GE
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com [mailto:usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of kenneth harrow
> Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2015 5:37 AM
> To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - FW: Mandela Is Not My Hero
>
> i don't think whites who were part of the struggle are different in their thinking from blacks. a lot of people in s africa had opinions opposed by others, black or white, and there were struggles between the pac and anc and the black consciousness movement, etc. winnie had her supporters, and for them the killing of a boy, which she ordered, was not a problem. it isn't a racial thing to say that others believed she should have gone to jail for ordering the killing.
> aside from that, the reading of mandela's choices get morphed into straight ideological instead of historical evaluations.
> i wasn't very happy about how capitalism came out on top, like many other people. but the debate, a very old one now, needs more the mudslinging against mandela to be evaluated properly.
> i would be interested in comparing his choices with those of kenyatta and later with mugabi to evaluate policies involving land appropriation, say.
> ken
>
> On 9/1/15 2:46 PM, Emeagwali, Gloria (History) wrote:
>> Fortunately or unfortunately a lot of Black South Africans think positively about Winnie.
>>
>>
>> Professor Gloria Emeagwali
>> History Department
>> CCSU. New Britain. CT 06050
>> africahistory.net
>> vimeo.com/user5946750/videos
>> Gloria Emeagwali's Documentaries on
>> Africa and the African Diaspora
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
>> [usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of kenneth harrow
>> [harrow@msu.edu]
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2015 6:22 AM
>> To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - FW: Mandela Is Not My Hero
>>
>> it read like a hatchet job to me, and an idealizing of winnie--she could do no wrong, so he musthave been bad.
>> i agree that we can question mandela's choice to retain a capitalist system, call it a neoliberal one as well; but it is questionable that he had a lot of choice at the outset. what became of that choice, with mbeki and zuma, over time, is another question.
>> ken
>>
>> On 8/31/15 1:19 PM, 'Chambi Chachage' via USA Africa Dialogue Series wrote:
>> He "explained his decision" in his 'Long Walk to Freedom':
>>
>> "I chose to tell no one what I was about to do. Not my colleagues
>> upstairs nor those in Lusaka. The ANC is a collective, but the
>> government had made collectivity in this case impossible. I did not
>> have the security or the time to discuss these issues with my
>> organization. I knew that my colleagues upstairs would condemn my
>> proposal, and that would kill my initiative even before it was born.
>> There are times when a leader must move out ahead of the flock, go off
>> in a new direction, confident that he is leading his people the right
>> way. Finally, my isolation furnished my organization with an excuse in
>> case matters went awry; the old man was alone and completely cut off,
>> and his actions were taken by him as an individual, not a
>> representative of the ANC" - Nelson Mandela (1994), Long Walk to
>> Freedom, page 627,
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: "Anunoby, Ogugua"
>> <AnunobyO@lincolnu.edu><mailto:AnunobyO@lincolnu.edu>
>> To: "usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
>> (USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com)"<mailto:usaafricadialogue@googleg
>> roups.com(USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com)>
>> <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com><mailto:usaafricadialogue@googlegr
>> oups.com>
>> Sent: Monday, August 31, 2015 1:10 AM
>> Subject: USA Africa Dialogue Series - FW: Mandela Is Not My Hero
>>
>>
>> The following was forwarded to me. Please read if you may.
>>
>>
>>
>> "According to this documentary, the story goes back a few months before the release of Nelson Mandela. He is abruptly transferred from his prison, separated from his companions 26 years in prison, to a luxurious private residence with garden and pool. Now, this is where you should live, this is the standard that corresponds to your rank, he was told. No sooner said than done, Mandela was comfortably installed at home. His wife Winnie is conducted to this villa by the South African secret services. This was the big day for Mandela to consume his first intimate night with his wife after waiting 26 years. But Winnie refused. On that day, their marriage was over. Winnie visited all the rooms of the residence quietly, going to the pool, looking at the manicured trees. And returned to tell Nelson, she did not feel comfortable and she wanted to go. Winnie understood that her husband had been bought.
>>
>> "What surprised members of the ANC who were still imprisoned is that Mandela decided to negotiate with his murderers for the future 80% of the South African population without consulting anyone in the party who for 27 years had carried his torch lest he be forgotten, so that he would not be killed in prison. Nobody knows what really happened. He never explained his decision."
>>
>>
>> http://pougala.org/no-mandela-is-not-my-hero/
>>
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>> --
>> kenneth w. harrow
>> faculty excellence advocate
>> professor of english
>> michigan state university
>> department of english
>> 619 red cedar road
>> room C-614 wells hall
>> east lansing, mi 48824
>> ph. 517 803 8839
>> harrow@msu.edu<mailto:harrow@msu.edu>
>>
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>> Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin To
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> --
> kenneth w. harrow
> faculty excellence advocate
> professor of english
> michigan state university
> department of english
> 619 red cedar road
> room C-614 wells hall
> east lansing, mi 48824
> ph. 517 803 8839
> harrow@msu.edu
>
>

--
kenneth w. harrow
faculty excellence advocate
professor of english
michigan state university
department of english
619 red cedar road
room C-614 wells hall
east lansing, mi 48824
ph. 517 803 8839
harrow@msu.edu


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