Hello Ken,
I do agree with you. It should not surprise you that I do.
In evaluating ancient religious accounts/writings and the characterization of their early principal players including claims made about them, I am usually divided between two selves. In one self, I think the writings may be factual. In the other self, I think the writings may not be factual. I do not see unsavory disharmony in this dichotomy I might add. Their authors were mostly partisans with evident motivation and purpose.
Religion at the end of the day, is in the faith and not the proof business. It is not science. They encourage (demand in some cases) belief and compliance sweetened with promised benefits. The discourage (condemn in some cases) disbelief and non-compliance and warn about consequences (damnation in some cases) therefore. Is it much surprise that most believers are usually "people of faith" and non-believers are usually skeptics?
Many pioneer characters in ancient writings were grandly characterized. They in time, have acquired the status of mythical heroes especially in the eyes and minds of believers. They have to be. They were after all, the willing instruments of supernatural beings that control mankind's destiny. They were chosen . They could not be mere mortals like the rest of us.
It does not matter too much to me that I am unsure of how much if any at all of the content of ancient religious writings is factual. It is not possible to be I think. Should anyone believe any or all of them? Everyone must decide for themselves. Should we have conversations on them. Yes of course. There are interesting literature. There is much about life and living that is good and not so good that may be learned from them. Should anyone take all of them literally or too seriously? Again everyone must decide for themselves. Caution in the interpretation and understanding of them is advisable I believe, even when one is a believer. History teaches us to.
oa
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com [mailto:usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Cornelius Hamelberg
Sent: Saturday, October 24, 2015 4:59 PM
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Professor Wariboko¹s Lecture and Medal of Honor at Trinity Theological Seminary, Accra
The Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w) however, lived more recently and as a very real person indeed!
On Saturday, 24 October 2015 20:30:44 UTC+2, Kenneth Harrow wrote:
dear oa, cornelius
i know you won't agree with me, but for myself it is more productive not to think about abraham, or any of the figures in the bible, as simply real, as simply historical. they come to us across the words of texts that presented the world through eyes that saw and conveyed meaning not in newspaper terms, not in mimetic terms, not in representational terms, not in realist terms. for them the conveyance of meaning came at other levels of language, as is true in all epics, all religious texts, and even in much of poetry. in fact, to treat abraham as a real person, in my view (i am repeating this), is to reduce the figure to a mere mortal with no particularly interesting qualities. as a figure who exists on another plane of meaning is to endow him with a richness which we can engage more fully on all levels.
the literalists won't like this, i suppose. but if one spends one's life reading and interpreting text, it is only in interpretation--not in fact--that real depth begins to emerge.
to give an example, from today's parshah. god tells abraham he will have a child with sarah. face down in the ground he laughs.
one might discuss this moment for hours, to plumb its amazing qualities.
and all that is amazing, that is multicolored, that is rich, that is worthwhile, that is teasing--evaporates if one asks, did that really happen.
lastly, does realism as a mode matter? when it comes to literature, cinema, theatre, the answer is, of course. it is a genre with its own qualities; but no genre in itself if of particular value. when it is in tension, with itself or with other genres, then it becomes enriched.
ken
On 10/24/15 10:16 AM, Cornelius Hamelberg wrote:
Lord Anunoby,
You are free to go on repeating your mantra that "Abraham was neither Jewish nor Muslim. He was simply faithful to the God he believed in." And exactly how much do you know about Abraham anyway?
The Legends of the Jews or The Torah… and Torah Min Ha-shamayim ?
You call Judaism, Christianity and al-Islam "Abrahamic" because the latter two also claim Aba Abraham as their founding father. But Jesus was not very nice to his interlocutors when they told him "Abraham is our father" was he? He reprimanded them with these terse words, according to John 8:
"You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
There's nothing really wrong in your first two paragraphs. With regard to paragraph 3 and what you say, that," Islam means "submission to God". It was not a religion before its fundamentals were revealed to Islam's prophet. It became a religion after Islam's prophet laid them out." – I should just like to reiterate that from Prophet Muhammad's point of view, all the earlier prophets, such as you find in the Hebrew Bible taught some form of Islam (submission to God)
Islam says that God sent prophets to all nations on earth , that the final messenger to all mankind is Muhammad (.S.A.W.) and that the way of submission that he teaches is final and supersedes all earlier revelations and teachings about submission to God. The Muslim is supposed to "believe in that which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) and that which was revealed before thee, and are certain of the Hereafter."
You cannot deny the role that Abraham plays in the Hebrew Faith. He became a Hebrew when he crossed the Euphrates River and when he chose God he became the first convert to Judaism - you may go ahead and define the Faith of the founding father, the biological father of Ishmael and Isaac - so to speak, the father of the Jews and some of the Arabs and please don't forget that Abraham appeared long before Moses was born ina Africa. (As Professor Harrow pointed out a few years ago in this forum , there are some Jews who erroneously believe that they are biological descendants of the flock that hurriedly accompanied Moses out of Egypt (there are yet others who are still erroneously proudly beating their chests and telling us that it was their ancestors who built the pyramids) - of course the dna tests don't cost that much – you'll probably find some Ashkenazi transmissions in your blood , maybe like the Lemba….time for more chest-beating…
PS. The Shia –Sunni divide is a little more complicated than what you state.
Whereas the Sunnis will readily quote "This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favour unto you, and have chosen for you as religion al-Islam" (al-Maidah 5:3) – the Shia will readily invoke Ghadir-e-khum . If you're interested in the Sunni-Shia difference, here's Al-Muraja'at ! In June 1991 I spent an hour with Dr Abul-Wafa al-Taftazani in his study at the University of Cairo - the second question he asked me was if I was well aware of the differences between Shia and Sunni , and I told him yes, and that we need not waste any time going there: It was the same evening that I was initiated into the Rifai . Indeed Lord Anunoby, the Almighty is One but the divisions among men are many. One of the problems is that some people believe that the Almighty has only spoken to them. There's a little of the Jante there, therefore all the fuss, but it's alright, they can go on believing in what they believe until they finally meet Him….
CH
On Friday, 23 October 2015 22:54:12 UTC+2, Anunoby, Ogugua wrote:Hello CH,
All Abrahamic religions preach submission to a supreme being- God, as all monotheistic religions do. Their ways to submit are different however. Islam means "submission to God" as laid out by Islam's prophet. Would I be a Muslim if I submit to God as I please? No of course. Why do the Sunnis for example have their differences with the Shia? It is not for non-submission to God by the Shia. It is for how they do. Christians are asked to submit to God as laid out by Jesus Christ. Anyone who does in that manner would be a Christian not a Muslim. Remember some of the reasons for Martin Luther's dissent and the Christian reformation?
The religious schism in Abrahamic religions were never about submission to God. They were about how. When some of the faithful claim that others do not believe or practice as they should meaning as the Moses, Jesus Christ, or Mohammed as the case prescribed, and they (some) will not have it, a schism may happen.
Islam means "submission to God". It was not a religion before its fundamentals were revealed to Islam's prophet. It became a religion after Islam's prophet laid them out. If it was otherwise, all human beings, dead or alive who submit or submitted to God for any period of time would be or have been Muslims and nothing else at the times. Islam could not predate its prophet- its founder.
Religions survive because they acquire members and become movements in some cases. Proselytizing religions even more so. They crave legitimacy. They will scratch and bite for it. Legitimacy helps religions attract, retain, and grow membership. Recall what Emperor Constantine did for Christianity? What better way for a religion in the Near East to achieve its objectives than to claim Abraham- the elite patriarch, as its first recruit if not founder. That is effective marketing in practice.
Abraham was neither Jewish or Muslim. He was simply faithful to the God he believed in. One understands that Judaism and Islam claim him as you say.
oa
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com [mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Cornelius Hamelberg
Sent: Friday, October 23, 2015 1:13 PM
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Professor Wariboko¹s Lecture and Medal of Honor at Trinity Theological Seminary, Accra
Lord Anunoby,
I have looked thoroughly into these matters (to my own satisfaction)
Bishop Krister Stendahl cautioned about leaving a space for what he called "holy envy"
You claim that "Abraham could neither have been a Jew or Muslim". Why couldn't he have been?
We must disabuse ourselves of certain misunderstandings, especially misunderstandings promoted by all kinds of religious propaganda.
By definition, Islam derives from the root s-l-m/sīn-lām-mīm meaning submission to al-Lah (the God) - and the Quran claims that was the religion of Abraham: submission to God. For further details you could take a look at the 14th chapter of the Quran known as Surah Ibrahim . Islam says that long before the appearance of Islam's last Prophet, all the Hebrew/ Jewish prophets in fact taught "submission to God". Judaists are aware that no two prophets ever prophesised in exactly the same way and as you know, the Prophet of Islam received the Quran in eloquent Arabic (Quraysh dialect. As to the finality of Islam – before the later Sunni-Shia divide:
"This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favour unto you, and have chosen for you as religion al-Islam" (al-Maidah 5:3)
Some Jewish and non-Jewish Islamic scholars have claimed that in the course of the Prophet of Islam's 23 year career, as the Jews of the Hijaz roundly rejected his prophetic claims - in parallel the role of Abraham gradually grew in prominence in the Quran, to the point where Abraham's first son Ishmael is substituted for Isaac who according to the akedah at the age of 37 years, was going to be sacrificed by his Father Abraham - and thus we have the Islamic feast known as Eid al-adha
Finally, with regard to the racial dimension, you may also be anxiously waiting for Professor Harrow to share his thoughts on what goes down as "The Curse of Ham"…
Wishing you a peaceful, relaxing weekend over there in Lincoln...
Cornelius,
On Friday, 23 October 2015 18:11:36 UTC+2, Anunoby, Ogugua wrote:Some claims should not be taken too seriously.
Abraham could neither have been a Jew or Muslim. The religions did not exist in his day. If indeed the Koran "asserts that Abraham was not a Jew, but was a Muslim", one must wonder how much else in that book are misleading and untrue.
Christianity is an Abrahamic religion. If Jews say Abraham was a Jew, the Koran says that Abraham was a Muslim, what is stopping Christians from claiming him too? Then again, if Abraham was a Muslim, was he Shia or Sunni?
Islam, like many religions before it, has its roots in older religions but especially Judaism and Christianity. It seems to me that some of its doctrinal difference with Judaism and Christianity may have had to do with adapting it to the culture of its place of origin and the proximate ambience. Islam's first believers were expected to be the people of Mecca, Medina and the surrounding area. It would be more acceptable to them if it was area culture friendly- incorporated polygamy for example.
oa
oa
oa
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com [mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Cornelius Hamelberg
Sent: Friday, October 23, 2015 7:25 AM
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Professor Wariboko¹s Lecture and Medal of Honor at Trinity Theological Seminary, Accra
As Fela says in Roforofo fight – just like the Jews, "You no go know who be who" (what tribe)
The question was: Who is a Jew? / What makes one a Jew? You could get the answer directly from the Almighty….
According to Jewish law, anyone born of a Jewish mother or who converts to Judaism is a Jew such as is reported of the Khazars…
According to the Jews, Abraham who came from Northern Iraq was the first Jew, even though his mother was not "Jewish"….
The Holy Quran asserts that Abraham was not a Jew, but was a Muslim. In the Islamic calendar, tomorrow is Ashura…
As the question tails into the colour question and some of the ridiculous theoretical possibilities of "converting" from Black to White and vis-versa or in between, there's "The colors of Jews " and beyond that let us not forget those who identify as "Black Jews".
Yours sincerely,
Cornelius
On Thursday, 22 October 2015 15:50:27 UTC+2, Kenneth Harrow wrote:according to jewish law your mother has to be jewish for you to be a jew.
many people like me are called secular jews who don't believe the law has a proper place in deciding these issues.
for me, a jew is someone who decides to follow the religion, and there are many different sects, from reconstructionist and reform to ultra-orthodox. unfortunately the orthodox now dominate religious issues in israel. i'd also say, someone who decides to join the cultural community and call themselves jewish has the right to do so. someone who marries a jew--and there are at least 50% or more marriages of that sort now in the jewish community--can decide to become jewish, in my eyes. synagogues usually demand a conversion process.
another answer is, jews are defined by a cultural affiliation, or by a religious affiliation.
but maybe in the largest sense, the jewish community is made up of people who are the descendants of jews, including those who converted.
i believe one can become a member of any, or several, religious communities. to assign "blood" as the defining trait is what the nazis did, so i find it morally repugnant.
an interesting question linked to yours, ogugua, might be, what is a black person. can a white, in america, convert to blackness? we
have seen the example of the white woman who became head of an naacp unit in california, and was exposed as a fraud. but couldn't she become an african-american? can a white person become a black person, in africa say? can't we find examples of people who "went native"?
and where are the lines between black and white when white children become rappers, like eminem?
kenOn 10/22/15 9:22 AM, Anunoby, Ogugua wrote:
What makes one a Jew? Is it blood (parentage)? Is it religion (parents' or conversion)? Is it a combination of the above? Is it anything else like adoption and skin color for example?
oa
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com [mailto:usaaf...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of kenneth harrow
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2015 8:03 PM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Professor Wariboko¹s Lecture and Medal of Honor at Trinity Theological Seminary, Accra
that's probably like asking if anyone can prove that jesus existed. others said he existed; others that he was a jew. others's words were eventually recorded. that's how history is gradually made, by seeing the words and evaluating the words of others.
or, if you want a christian take on it:1 A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham:
2 Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,
3 Judah the father of Perez and Zerah, whose mother was Tamar, Perez the father of Hezron, Hezron the father of Ram,
4 Ram the father of Amminadab, Amminadab the father of Nahshon, Nahshon the father of Salmon,
5 Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab, Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth, Obed the father of Jesse,
6 and Jesse the father of King David. David was the father of Solomon, whose mother had been Uriah's wife,
7 Solomon the father of Rehoboam, Rehoboam the father of Abijah, Abijah the father of Asa,
8 Asa the father of Jehoshaphat, Jehoshaphat the father of Jehoram, Jehoram the father of Uzziah,
9 Uzziah the father of Jotham, Jotham the father of Ahaz, Ahaz the father of Hezekiah,
10 Hezekiah the father of Manasseh, Manasseh the father of Amon, Amon the father of Josiah,
11 and Josiah the father of Jeconiah and his brothers at the time of the exile to Babylon.
12 After the exile to Babylon: Jeconiah was the father of Shealtiel, Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel,
13 Zerubbabel the father of Abiud, Abiud the father of Eliakim, Eliakim the father of Azor,
14 Azor the father of Zadok, Zadok the father of Akim, Akim the father of Eliud,
15 Eliud the father of Eleazar, Eleazar the father of Matthan, Matthan the father of Jacob,
16 and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
...
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