Dear ibk
Your questions are important for me not because of the particular instance of your disputes here on the list, but the broader question of freedom of speech. Libel is proven in a court, and damage must be proven for it to be libel. That’s my non-lawyer answer, what I’d call an educated guess. You know quite well that many countries now have laws against hate speech; and even if the u.s. doesn’t subscribe to such laws, or accept them because of the first amendment, we still accept the notion of a hate crime, which is adduced on the basis of speech spoken in relation to the crime.
The question of free speech on this list is not so simple to dismiss as you would make it seem. I am answering because your arguments are good, and I agree that if you dare to speak out publicly then you should expect pot shots. But you can’t say because of that that any speech is ok and that there are no limits. Of course someone has to adjudicate, and more than once toyin falola has intervened not only to urge a measure of decorum, but to remind us of his authority to make that appeal. I thought everyone on this list recognized that authority when he spoke, that is, as moderator, not just as highly regarded scholar.
You might not agree, but I would hope that we could all try to agree on debating the points with all the heat we want, but leaving insults out of this. What do we really gain in insulting each other? We alienate subscribers to the list, and in the end kill the spirit of community that binds us together in dialogue.
Lastly, just because it is difficult to make distinctions, just because it is hard to implement such rules, that doesn’t mean we don’t try. Actually, without being hyperbolic, it is actually that effort to deal with the difficult borderline that makes us human in the best sense. It is easy to give a brilliant student a 4.0; anyone can do it. But when do you decide if a student is on the edge, especially because a failure or not, and add to that cases when the failure might have dire consequences. You can’t dodge it; you have to decide.
Decide not to insult, while still criticizing profoundly. Why not?
ken
From: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Ibukunolu A Babajide <ibk2005@gmail.com>
Reply-To: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, July 6, 2016 at 12:39 AM
To: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Elechi Amadi Joins The Ancestors
Brother Ken Harrow,
I spent 12 years of my most productive life prosecuting the Rwanda genocide. Google my name and yu will see proof. You are waxing lyrical and philosophical, but the practical issue is where to set the boundaries and how!
How do you accommodate a thick skin and a wafer thin skin. Some will stay in the group even when slapped whereas others will run away at the mere threat of a sneeze!
If you moderate a group and muzzle me, I will leave. If you can not stand the heat then stay out of the kitchen. One man's insult is another man's truth. Toyin Adepoju and I have come a long way and have exchanged views in discussions long before this Forum was created and I have formed a profile of him and he must have formed one of me too I suppose. If I share my views of him here and Chidi Opara says that is an insult is he justified? Let us assume that Chidi is the Moderator for argument purposes and he shuts me out, is that fair? Will he inform me before he shuts me out? will he accord me a right to defend my position? Before he shuts me out will he ask Toyin who so far has not cried Insult?
You see in theory free speech, incitement, libel, group defamation are easy to propound, but the hard part is implementing rues against them in practice. Just as one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter freedom of speech in a small forum like this is too important to be left to the subjective whims and caprices of any individual. At the minimum there should be a complainant, not a busy body who is exercising a wafer thin tolerance level and imposing that on the group!
I will just remind you that all these began when CAO asked how my posts make it through moderation. So far I was not aware that I was being watched, read and "sifted" by Big Brother! I hope not and if it is true, then Big Brother better have a huge tolerance level and not a wafer thin sensitivity.
Cheers.
IBK
On 5 July 2016 at 19:32, Kenneth Harrow <harrow@msu.edu> wrote:
Hi ibk
You are arguing with someone whose sentiments towards freedom of speech are very much in your direction; I’ve protested and been an activist all my life, and at times have paid the price. But please do not argue for freedom of speech as meaning unlimited freedom. Your freedom of speech impacts my own freedoms, and neither is absolute. If you malign me, I can imagine in two ways I am hurt. First, my feelings. Ok, a public forum dictates some measure of permitting strong disagreement, but if it is a community of speakers, and one person drives another away by continually insulting that person, I, as a community member, might suggest to the other members of the community we shouldn’t allow that. I stress a community of speakers, a group which we all joined, not the open public domain of democracy and the state.
Secondly, if y ou malign me, saying I sell faulty products, and it isn’t true and I go out of business, then you have libeled me and that is against the law…. For obvious reasons.
Third, if you malign my people, saying we are here to exploit and kill you, and say, let’s go after them, and if the others rise us and kill us because of that, then you have incited violence. I am against that.
American law is more tolerant of that. But I can tell you that since Rwanda, since radio mille collines, when 800,000 mostly tutsi people were slaughtered, I will never never accept that you have the right to incite violence against another.
I try to propose extreme cases because I want to understand how the notion of freedom might be limited, with this entailing an abuse of our freedom. I think, as I reflect on it, that we might consider the difference between our freedom as individuals—free to express ourselves as we see fit—and our freedom as a community, free to act collectively, and to consider the collective as the agent, not just myself as an individual as the agent.
Does that make sense to you?
Sort of like, does the collective gag itself when it says its own members can criticize each other, but not damage each other?
Lastly, who determines if damage is being done. Well, in this case that person is the moderator, self-appointed because of having founded and continuing to facilitate the list. That might not work for a nation, but it does work for lots of smaller collectivities that have a sense of sharing, of brotherhood and sisterhood.
Ken
(I know I am opening a huge philosophical can of worms with these notions: I taught, many years ago, rousseau and I understand his arguments, used in the French revolution, about the will of the people. I understand, too, how the reign of terror justified itself using the argument about the will of the people. I understand how the brits imagine other notions of the state versus citizens…. I just tried to give examples that made sense to me for us on this list—what might be legitimate in stating there are acceptable limits to what we can say)
From: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Ibukunolu A Babajide <ibk2005@gmail.com>
Reply-To: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 5, 2016 at 9:02 AM
To: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Elechi Amadi Joins The Ancestors
Dear brother Ken Harrow,
You make two points. If I am invited to a gagging forum and I accept to be gagged, I should not complain. Consider that when I am in a forum that I believe has freedom of speech, then when suggestions are made that I be gagged I should complain loudly.
Your second point is that I should be at the mercy of the List owner on what is the boundary of decency. I will also demur. This is the foundation of fascism. I will not grant the privilege to another to define for me the boundaries of decency.
Lastly, I posed this question to CAO (when he advocated that I should be gagged and denied a voice) are you against free speech? He said No!
That is enough for me. I trust he is a man of his words and conviction. What history has taught us is that it is dangerous to volunteer to one man the prescription for what is decent. Very soon any point of view he or she disagrees with will become indecent.
Cheers.
IBK
On 5 July 2016 at 15:30, Kenneth Harrow <harrow@msu.edu> wrote:
Dear ibk
If you want to post a message that is not gagged, you can use facebook. If you want to share a public space with others, where the collective is brought together thanks to the effort of a moderator, and where participation is optional, then you should not complain that the one who put the list together has the right to determine what are the limits of the speech. Some time ago I was attacked on this list no matter what I said. I would not have continued to participate had that continued. What you call gagging might be called something else under these circumstances.
ken
From: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Ibukunolu A Babajide <ibk2005@gmail.com>
Reply-To: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Date: Monday, July 4, 2016 at 3:48 PM
To: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Elechi Amadi Joins The Ancestors
CAO,
They both gag! Whatever is sifted is gagged!
Play as you may on words, gagging is evil do not embrace it and do not ever advocate it. Just as you want the public to determine the creative power of your poetry let the public be the judge of what is decent and what is indecent in posts.
Not your subjective bias, and not that of murder-rators!
Let the voice of all be heard in full.
Cheers.
IBK
On 4 July 2016 at 14:45, Chidi Anthony Opara <chidi.opara@gmail.com> wrote:
Lest I forget, censorship and moderation in my opinion are different, while moderation sifts, censorship gags.
CAO.
On Sunday, 3 July 2016 22:57:52 UTC+1, Chidi Anthony Opara wrote:IBK,
Who will constitute the arbiters of decency is no longer the issue, since the basic rules have already been established.CAO
On Jul 3, 2016 10:01 PM, "Ibukunolu A Babajide" <ibk2005@gmail.com> wrote:
CAO,
You or who will constitute the arbiters of decency, and after their subjective determination sift voices they do not want? Leave my profession. It is of no moment here. Look deep inside and remove any demons of censorship you harbour deep inside of you.
That my dear Owerri motor park friend is my Sunday preachment to you.
God bless you too.
Cheers.
On 3 July 2016 at 17:32, Chidi Anthony Opara <chidi.opara@gmail.com> wrote:
IBK,
I cannot advocate the suppression of anybody's voice, that would not be me. In my opinion, there is a difference between "gate-keeping" and moderation. The former seeks to exclude, while the latter sifts. I believe that atleast, the basic rules of decency should be observed in public discourses.
Toyin disagreed with your viewpoints without throwing dirts on your person but your reply heaped doubts on his academic endervours, which was unnecesary in the circumstance.
I also love you for what you have achieved in your chosen profession and this the main reason why I feel bad any time you "miss yan" (as we say at Arugo Motor Park Owerri).
Be well always,
CAO.
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