Hi ibk
You are arguing with someone whose sentiments towards freedom of speech are very much in your direction; I’ve protested and been an activist all my life, and at times have paid the price. But please do not argue for freedom of speech as meaning unlimited freedom. Your freedom of speech impacts my own freedoms, and neither is absolute. If you malign me, I can imagine in two ways I am hurt. First, my feelings. Ok, a public forum dictates some measure of permitting strong disagreement, but if it is a community of speakers, and one person drives another away by continually insulting that person, I, as a community member, might suggest to the other members of the community we shouldn’t allow that. I stress a community of speakers, a group which we all joined, not the open public domain of democracy and the state.
Secondly, if y ou malign me, saying I sell faulty products, and it isn’t true and I go out of business, then you have libeled me and that is against the law…. For obvious reasons.
Third, if you malign my people, saying we are here to exploit and kill you, and say, let’s go after them, and if the others rise us and kill us because of that, then you have incited violence. I am against that.
American law is more tolerant of that. But I can tell you that since Rwanda, since radio mille collines, when 800,000 mostly tutsi people were slaughtered, I will never never accept that you have the right to incite violence against another.
I try to propose extreme cases because I want to understand how the notion of freedom might be limited, with this entailing an abuse of our freedom. I think, as I reflect on it, that we might consider the difference between our freedom as individuals—free to express ourselves as we see fit—and our freedom as a community, free to act collectively, and to consider the collective as the agent, not just myself as an individual as the agent.
Does that make sense to you?
Sort of like, does the collective gag itself when it says its own members can criticize each other, but not damage each other?
Lastly, who determines if damage is being done. Well, in this case that person is the moderator, self-appointed because of having founded and continuing to facilitate the list. That might not work for a nation, but it does work for lots of smaller collectivities that have a sense of sharing, of brotherhood and sisterhood.
Ken
(I know I am opening a huge philosophical can of worms with these notions: I taught, many years ago, rousseau and I understand his arguments, used in the French revolution, about the will of the people. I understand, too, how the reign of terror justified itself using the argument about the will of the people. I understand how the brits imagine other notions of the state versus citizens…. I just tried to give examples that made sense to me for us on this list—what might be legitimate in stating there are acceptable limits to what we can say)
From: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Ibukunolu A Babajide <ibk2005@gmail.com>
Reply-To: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 5, 2016 at 9:02 AM
To: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Elechi Amadi Joins The Ancestors
Dear brother Ken Harrow,
You make two points. If I am invited to a gagging forum and I accept to be gagged, I should not complain. Consider that when I am in a forum that I believe has freedom of speech, then when suggestions are made that I be gagged I should complain loudly.
Your second point is that I should be at the mercy of the List owner on what is the boundary of decency. I will also demur. This is the foundation of fascism. I will not grant the privilege to another to define for me the boundaries of decency.
Lastly, I posed this question to CAO (when he advocated that I should be gagged and denied a voice) are you against free speech? He said No!
That is enough for me. I trust he is a man of his words and conviction. What history has taught us is that it is dangerous to volunteer to one man the prescription for what is decent. Very soon any point of view he or she disagrees with will become indecent.
Cheers.
IBK
On 5 July 2016 at 15:30, Kenneth Harrow <harrow@msu.edu> wrote:
Dear ibk
If you want to post a message that is not gagged, you can use facebook. If you want to share a public space with others, where the collective is brought together thanks to the effort of a moderator, and where participation is optional, then you should not complain that the one who put the list together has the right to determine what are the limits of the speech. Some time ago I was attacked on this list no matter what I said. I would not have continued to participate had that continued. What you call gagging might be called something else under these circumstances.
ken
From: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Ibukunolu A Babajide <ibk2005@gmail.com>
Reply-To: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Date: Monday, July 4, 2016 at 3:48 PM
To: usaafricadialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Elechi Amadi Joins The Ancestors
CAO,
They both gag! Whatever is sifted is gagged!
Play as you may on words, gagging is evil do not embrace it and do not ever advocate it. Just as you want the public to determine the creative power of your poetry let the public be the judge of what is decent and what is indecent in posts.
Not your subjective bias, and not that of murder-rators!
Let the voice of all be heard in full.
Cheers.
IBK
On 4 July 2016 at 14:45, Chidi Anthony Opara <chidi.opara@gmail.com> wrote:
Lest I forget, censorship and moderation in my opinion are different, while moderation sifts, censorship gags.
CAO.
On Sunday, 3 July 2016 22:57:52 UTC+1, Chidi Anthony Opara wrote:IBK,
Who will constitute the arbiters of decency is no longer the issue, since the basic rules have already been established.CAO
On Jul 3, 2016 10:01 PM, "Ibukunolu A Babajide" <ibk2005@gmail.com> wrote:
CAO,
You or who will constitute the arbiters of decency, and after their subjective determination sift voices they do not want? Leave my profession. It is of no moment here. Look deep inside and remove any demons of censorship you harbour deep inside of you.
That my dear Owerri motor park friend is my Sunday preachment to you.
God bless you too.
Cheers.
On 3 July 2016 at 17:32, Chidi Anthony Opara <chidi.opara@gmail.com> wrote:
IBK,
I cannot advocate the suppression of anybody's voice, that would not be me. In my opinion, there is a difference between "gate-keeping" and moderation. The former seeks to exclude, while the latter sifts. I believe that atleast, the basic rules of decency should be observed in public discourses.
Toyin disagreed with your viewpoints without throwing dirts on your person but your reply heaped doubts on his academic endervours, which was unnecesary in the circumstance.
I also love you for what you have achieved in your chosen profession and this the main reason why I feel bad any time you "miss yan" (as we say at Arugo Motor Park Owerri).
Be well always,
CAO.
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