I won't be surprised if I heard you retired into the priesthood which is not necessarily a bad idea. We all need to (And NOT have to) believe in something. But as for restricting divinity to Christ alone I would seek refuge with Okigbo and declare:
'Here are here the errors of the rendering.'
OAA.
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------
From: Mobolaji Aluko <alukome@gmail.com>
Date: 30/08/2018 05:58 (GMT+00:00)
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: On the Matter of Yoruba in Northern Nigeria. (: NigerianID | Is Omarosa's Maternal Heritage Nigerian?
Is it faith that you have an objection to - or blind faith?
In the passage that I provided, Jesus Christ did not csstigate Thomas for wishing to confirm the incidence of His resurrection by bodily evidence. Rather, He invitedThomas to do so - which challenge Thomas or may not have taken up, we are not told - but merely also said that those like us latter-day Christians who did not have Thomas' privilege would even be more blessed. We thank Him for that assurance.
As to pedophilia, I don't do it, blind faith or not. I don't even know how blind Faith got into this discussion. No person should have blind Faith in a human being, institutions or book. We ate asked to test every spirit:
1 John 4:1-3
11Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
Unquote
I am preaching again....
But if our conversation is over because of something that I wrote, that is okay. It was good while it lasted - invigorating and promising. Nothing good lasts forever.
And there you have it.
Bolaji Aluko
On Wednesday, August 29, 2018, Emeagwali, Gloria (History) <emeagwali@ccsu.edu> wrote:
-- On Wednesday, August 29, 2018, Emeagwali, Gloria (History) <emeagwali@ccsu.edu> wrote:
--Bolaj,
Too bad that you had to resort to preaching, innuendo and circular argumentation,
to make the case. The discussion was invigorating and promising - until blind faith and "miraculous fancy" stepped in and terminated the conversation.
One thing that we should learn from the current pedophilia scandal in the Church is that blind faith
in institutions, people, books, the clergy or even the pope, is not advisable.
Professor Gloria Emeagwali
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com > on behalf of Mobolaji Aluko <alukome@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 6:41 AM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: On the Matter of Yoruba in Northern Nigeria. (: NigerianID | Is Omarosa's Maternal Heritage Nigerian?
Gloria:Yes, both inside and outside the ring of believers, skepticism is allowed, but belief after personal experience is expected, but even more blessed without such experience, which is faith....
Gospel of John 20:24-29 (KJV) reads:
On Wednesday, August 29, 2018, Emeagwali, Gloria (History) <emeagwali@ccsu.edu> wrote:
- 24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
- 25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
- 26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: [then]came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace [be] unto you.
- 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust [it] into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
- 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
- 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.
- And there you have it.
- Bolaji Aluko
"And there you have it. Non- Christians need not fret. Just believe!"Mobolaji Aluko
This is where the cookie crumbles. How would the believers in " fantastic flights of miraculous fancy" be ever challenged?
But I must confess that the guidelines you suggested were useful. Corroboration by" independent sources"
is a good suggestion. I take it that the independent sources must be completely outside the ring of believers
or the paradigm. Good luck with that!
Professor Gloria Emeagwali
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com > on behalf of Mobolaji Aluko <alukome@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2018 5:46 PM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: On the Matter of Yoruba in Northern Nigeria. (: NigerianID | Is Omarosa's Maternal Heritage Nigerian?
Correction:. Three Synoptic Gospels + John...
On Tuesday, August 28, 2018, Mobolaji Aluko <alukome@gmail.com> wrote:
OAA:But I talk about reasonable truthfulness, not absolute truthfulness, which can only be established and vouched for if you were present at each event, and if the record is as you remembered the events, yet you did not collaborate in the writing.
But even without corroboration, there can be various tests to establish A RING-OF-TRUTH in a story:
{1). Establishing who the author is or authors are. When that is anonymous, beware.
(2). establishing the integrity of the author. If he or she has produced other debunked records, beware.
(3). Interrogating the motive of the author, who clearly has expended energy to commit the record to writing, for himself and for posterity. If the motive is for propaganda - whether negative or positive propaganda - beware.
(4). The INTERNAL CONSISTENCY of theContents conveyed. Are they in the main consisent with human events, or are they just fantastic flights of miraculous fancy? If the stories are about super-villains or super-saints engaging in nether-world events, beware.
(5). Finally, does the record read like a STORY or a PHILOSOPHICAL LESSON? Beware of taking a lesson as a story.
That is how I read my Christian Bible and believe fully in it, that the compilers must have applied some, all and more of the tests above, with the proviso that some passages are stories while others are philosophical lessons (parables), and some passages are prescriptive (this is what the Christian God wants of you for all ages) while others are descriptive (this is how it was, and how God dealt with it at that time.)
And yes, while the New Testament's four Synoptic Gospels by the different authors Mathew, Mark, Luke (all written between AD 50 and 70, and John (written later between AD 85 and 90) have a corroborative value, the Old Testament's Pentsteuch has an internal consistency ring to it - Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, Leviticus (written between 1400 and 1450 BC) and Deuteronomy, (written later between 1410 and 1395 BC) - all ascribed to Moses as the author, with help from Joshua in Deuteronomy to record how Moses died!
And there you have it. Non- Christians need not fret. Just believe!
Bolaji Aluko
On Tuesday, August 28, 2018, OLAYINKA AGBETUYI <yagbetuyi@hotmail.com> wrote:
You have just paraphrased the problem non Christians have with the Christian Cannon. Outside the gospels of Matthew, Luke Paul and Mark nobody could independently vouch for the occurrence of the events.--
This is why outside religious circles their truth value has attracted a question mark and they were written down. We could do internal comparison among the gospels and not outside of them. It is an internal story of a sect unlike the Old testament which is the story of a NATION and their relations with others.
OAA
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.-------- Original message --------From: Mobolaji Aluko <alukome@gmail.com>Date: 28/08/2018 17:31 (GMT+00:00)Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: On the Matter of Yoruba in Northern Nigeria. (: NigerianID | Is Omarosa's Maternal Heritage Nigerian?
Gloria:If I lie with my mouth, and I or a listener write it down and transmit it, does it make my words true?
Absolutely not....
Where oral records differ is deniability - I didn't say that, or that was not said or you must have heard differently or prove it was said at all - while a written record is there to see, for one to return to and go through line by line to COROBORATE with INDEPENDENT SOURCES for reasonable truthfulness.
And there you have it.
Bolaji Aluko
--
On Monday, August 27, 2018, Emeagwali, Gloria (History) <emeagwali@ccsu.edu> wrote:
--Agreed. Because a narrative is written down on paper or parchment or wherever-
does not automatically make it true.
Professor Gloria Emeagwali
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com > on behalf of OLAYINKA AGBETUYI <yagbetuyi@hotmail.com>
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2018 10:02 AM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: On the Matter of Yoruba in Northern Nigeria. (: NigerianID | Is Omarosa's Maternal Heritage Nigerian?Agree entirely with your views. There are many stories in the Bible that were orally presented and narrated for hundreds of years about ancient and lost cities before the Old testament was written down including the wall of Jericho (millenia) which archaeological finds have corroborated. The same with Egypt. Also Schllimans gold was discovered from descriptions in Homer which was an oral tale for centuries before it was written down.
Conversely the fact that written history is written does not mean that the significance of events ( which is really what differentiates stories from histories cannot be biased or falsified.
Oral narratives have to be PROVEN to be false before being dismissed as false. The fact they are not in mutually existing forms in contiguous shared histories is not sufficient grounds to dismiss them. Different cultures determine which events and memories to preserve and prioritize.
OAA
OAA
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------From: Kwabena Akurang-Parry <kaparry@hotmail.com>Date: 27/08/2018 13:40 (GMT+00:00)Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: On the Matter of Yoruba in Northern Nigeria. (: NigerianID | Is Omarosa's Maternal Heritage Nigerian?
--Pardon me, I have no idea what this is all about. But let me throw in this. Theoretically oral histories from different or coterminous states/societies don't necessarily have to be corroborative or complementary. Even oral history from the same family may be different because of memory and selectivity. Certainly, oral histories may be used to interrogate written sources on African history that tend to be lopsidedly laden with biased perspectives chronicled mostly by non-Africans in the precolonial and colonial periods. Absolutely, written sources have their hegemonic slant, while oral histories have their fluidity and mutability. Also oral histories have selectivity of detail and facts and may also conceal some aspects of lived-experiences for convenience instead of disclosure of neutral truth. Just a thought oh!Kwabena
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com > on behalf of farooqkperogi@gmail.com <farooqkperogi@gmail.com>
Sent: August 27, 2018 2:44 AM
To: USAAfrica Dialogue
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: On the Matter of Yoruba in Northern Nigeria. (: NigerianID | Is Omarosa's Maternal Heritage Nigerian?--These are no more than uncritical regurgitations of Oyo-centric oral histories, which neither Baatonu nor Nupe oral histories corroborate, and which are contradicted by written records of the time in some cases. There is no point arguing about the 16th century. I'd only say that the Baatonu, in both Nigeria and Benin Republic, have no record of the putative Alaafin-led Oyo-Baatonu onslaught on the Nupe. Since there is no extant written record to authoritatively dispute or validate this claim, I'll just leave it at that.
The easiest claim to dispute is the claim that "In 1825, the Oyo and a political faction of Nupe collaborated to fight against the rising Fulani-led Islamist power in Ilorin but they lost." First, there was no war between "Fulani-led Islamist power in Ilorin" and Oyo in 1825. Ilorin's first emir was installed in 1823. The first war with Oyo didn't take place until around 1837. At that time, the first emir had died and was replaced by his younger brother, Shita. It was Shita who fought a war with Oyo and Borgu (or, more correctly, with whom Oyo and Borgu fought a war since he didn't initiate it). From the correspondence Sultan Muhammad Bello exchanged with Emir Shi'ta of Ilorin in the 1830s, we know for a fact that Bello sent a contingent of fighters to help Shita, and some members of that contingent were taken from Nupeland where Fulani rulers had taken over political power. So to claim that "the Oyo and a political faction of Nupe collaborated to fight against the rising Fulani-led Islamist power in Ilorin" is counterfactual. It's uncritical acceptance of oral history.
You said, "In 1837, the Oyo and Ibariba collaborated to fight against the Fulani-led Islamist power in Ilorin but they lost. Four Ibariba kings, the Alaafin and his son were among the people who perished in that war. If they had won, Oyo would have benefited the most but these Ibariba leaders were also fighting for their own survival against the expanding Sokoto Caliphate."
Again, that is Oyo-centric historical reconstruction that is not corroborated by the collective memories of the Baatonu people. The Baatonu people don't remember this as a collaborative war. They remember it as a failed self-interested war of conquest. Most importantly, though, there is no shred of historical evidence that the Sokoto Caliphate was "expanding" in the ways you suggest. The Ilorin caliphate was a historical accident. Had Afonja not invited Alimi to Ilorin and told him to resettle his family in Ilorin, there would never have been an emirate in that city. Alimi was only an itinerant Islamic preacher with no connections to the Sokoto caliphate and no political ambitions. In the six years he lived in Ilorin before his death, he never declared himself an emir. It was his son who was made "leader of Muslims" after his father's death. And all records showed that his son didn't seek to expand the caliphate because he was severely insecure and was consumed by existential anxieties. He and his brother sought military help from Sokoto not to expand the caliphate but to survive in Ilorin.
"Soun was the governor that the Alaafin sent to rule Ogbomoso area in the late sixteenth century when the Oyo Empire project began. Yes, he was Ibariba (and possibly other things). But this is a common practice in Oyo Empire --- to send non-natives to govern conquered territories. Oyo Empire sent Yoruba governors to manage affairs in Ibariba country as well. Even Oyo governors of Hausa background were sent to Oyo's colonies in Yewa (Egbado) area. Empire-builders cannot afford to think like a village head. They were successful because they were cosmopolitan in thinking and practice with sharp eyes for meritocracy. Also, you cannot create boundaries when you are trying to expand boundaries. Oyo Empire was a Yoruba-dominated entity but other language communities were absorbed into it and they became Oyo citizens or Alaafin's subjects."
This made me laugh out so loud!!! So you actually believe this? What about the Iba of Kishi who still pays homage to the king of Nikki? Was he also a "non-native" governor sent by the Alaafin?
Farooq
Farooq A. Kperogi, Ph.D.Associate ProfessorJournalism & Emerging Media
School of Communication & MediaSocial Science BuildingRoom 5092 MD 2207402 Bartow Avenue
Kennesaw State University
Kennesaw, Georgia, USA 30144
Cell: (+1) 404-573-9697
Personal website: www.farooqkperogi.comTwitter: @farooqkperogAuthor of Glocal English: The Changing Face and Forms of Nigerian English in a Global World
"The nice thing about pessimism is that you are constantly being either proven right or pleasantly surprised." G. F. Will
--On Sun, Aug 26, 2018 at 9:38 PM Akin Ogundiran <ogundiran@gmail.com> wrote:
A little clarification because some of the previous exchanges seem to have collapsed about four hundred years of history into one event.--
1. The Ibariba (Baatonu) and the Oyo collaborated in the mid-sixteenth century to defend their homelands from a segment of Nupe militarists (not all Nupe) who were "creating trouble" throughout the northern Yoruba region, and Moshi-Niger area. The Wasangari who were ruling a large section of the Ibariba region feared that the crisis could spread to their territory and they supported this Oyo-Ibariba coalition. The Alaafin-led resistance finally pushed back and subdued the Nupe militarists in the last quarter of the sixteenth century. The victory launched Oyo on its path of political expansion and empire building.
2. In 1825, the Oyo and a political faction of Nupe collaborated to fight against the rising Fulani-led Islamist power in Ilorin but they lost.
3. In 1837, the Oyo and Ibariba collaborated to fight against the Fulani-led Islamist power in Ilorin but they lost. Four Ibariba kings, the Alaafin and his son were among the people who perished in that war. If they had won, Oyo would have benefited the most but these Ibariba leaders were also fighting for their own survival against the expanding Sokoto Caliphate.
4. In 1840, Ibadan organized a region-wide defense against the southward push of Ilorin Islamists (who were being directly supported by the Sokoto Caliphate). The Ibadan won the battle in Ilorin and saved the Houses of Oduduwa from becoming emirates. That victory also launched Ibadan on the path of its own expansionist program.
5. Soun was the governor that the Alaafin sent to rule Ogbomoso area in the late sixteenth century when the Oyo Empire project began. Yes, he was Ibariba (and possibly other things). But this is a common practice in Oyo Empire --- to send non-natives to govern conquered territories. Oyo Empire sent Yoruba governors to manage affairs in Ibariba country as well. Even Oyo governors of Hausa background were sent to Oyo's colonies in Yewa (Egbado) area. Empire-builders cannot afford to think like a village head. They were successful because they were cosmopolitan in thinking and practice with sharp eyes for meritocracy. Also, you cannot create boundaries when you are trying to expand boundaries. Oyo Empire was a Yoruba-dominated entity but other language communities were absorbed into it and they became Oyo citizens or Alaafin's subjects.
Akin OgundiranUNC Charlotte
On Saturday, August 25, 2018 at 4:07:36 PM UTC-4, Bolaji Aluko wrote:
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Mobolaji Aluko <alu...@gmail.com>
Date: Saturday, August 25, 2018
Subject: Re: NigerianID | Is Omarosa's Maternal Heritage Nigerian?
To: Imperia Merchant <imperi...@yahoo.com>
Cc:
Imperial:
History does not lie. When for example, Tinubu prides himself as Jagaban Borgu, he has a sense of history. People forget that the Bariba people of Borgu Kingdom (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borgu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bariba_people ) once fought against the Yoruba of Oyo Empire, but at some later time assisted the Yoruba to fight against the Tapa of Nupe Kingdom (mainly in modern-day Niger State, but also Kwara North and Kogi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nupe_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nupe_language ), all of who are/were neighbors. Here is a map of West African kingdoms in 1625:
If one were to superimpose the Nigerian portion of that map on these Nigerian states
https://www.nigerianmuse.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/ Nigeria-Map-36-States-plus- Abuja-500x436.jpg
as well as on the followung map showing the Niger-Benue confluence:
One will then get a good picture of why you write below that: "(they) claim to be Yoruba from the north (or northern Yoruba ) jbecause the present Kwara and Kogi states were once part of the old Northern Region . The capital of old Yoruba kingdom ( the defunct Oyo Empire ) was located somewhere around the present Kogi State".. In fact, if you draw a straight line through my Ekiti State, you will find that many parts of Ekiti State are more "Northern" than certain parts of Kogi, Benue and Taraba States. Therefore we should make a distinction between the "political North" and the "geographic North" of Nigeria.
Read the fascinating history in:
And there you have it.
Bolaji Aluko
On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 1:22 AM Imperial Merchant Trust Ltd <imperi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Wharf
Non of the three politicians ever denied being Yoruba but they claim to be Yoruba from the north (or northern Yoruba ) jbecause the present Kwara and Kogi states were once part of the old Northern Region .
The capital of old Yoruba kingdom ( the defunct Oyo Empire ) was located somewhere around the present Kogi State up till early 19th century .
Sent from my iPhone
On 24 Aug 2018, at 11:04 PM, 'Wharf A. Snake' via Corporate Nigeria <corporat...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Saraki, Sunday Awoniyi, Dino Melaye say they are not Yoruba but Buska, Ogbeni Dipo, Alagba Afis say they are. Now they have claimed the Itshekiri too. Revanchist they all are.
Ejo ni Mushin - PrinceSent from my iPhone
Yes o, we relate very well as cousinsWe have so many alliances and coalition with Itsekiri
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 23, 2018, at 9:26 PM, 'DIPO ENIOLA' via Corporate Nigeria <corporat...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
A good number of Itsekiri people think they are Yoruba. Some are active in OPC.
The Oha 1
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