Thanks Ogundayo.
Your response seems to conflate a no of issues- earning money from a sacred literature with materialism and materialism with pride.
You seem to oppose to this conjunction another one you construct- between poverty and humility, humility with wisdom and spiritual powers and give a list of spiritual cultures and spiritual masters who exemplify these qualities.
Jesus depended for his food on his disciples, who were fishermen, members of the working class.
Buddha depedend on people who gave him gifts.
The various monastic cultures you mentioned depend on both what they generate and gifts they are given.
So, there is always a principle of exchange in action.
Someone is producing value and getting something material in relation to that value.
Beyond that basic level, is the stupendous growth of various religions thinkable without vast commercial networks enabling the writing, translation, publishing and distribution of sacred texts, including the support of those who created and/or manage these texts?
In the light of these considerations, I wonder how developing an ofo centred practice is necessarily seen as going against principles of spirituality.
Even then, I have a huge body of writings on social media and other platforms that are freely accessible and I continue to publish using that approach.
That is my fundamental approach.
I am complementing it with one in which the scholarly/artistic/spiritual vocation is being developed to pay for itself.
On intellectual property in relation to ofo, anybody is within their rights to publish and make money from existing ofo, as is done in books on Yoruba literature, ideally in collaboration with the sources and creators of the examples of the verbal art, or through the permission of the writer and publisher of the book in which they are published.
My interest is in using such extant ofo as examples of the character of the genre in order to explore how this may be adapted to uses beyond it's originating context.
On the issue of orality vs writing, would Jesus and Buddha's ideas have achieved the global impact they did over the centuries if they had not been committed to writing eventually?
On spiritual masters in the Yoruba tradition, is it really true that they take a vow of poverty?
There is a difference between minimality of living and poverty,although the idea of poverty is open to diverse interpretations.
The current trend in the Orisa community in Nigeria and the Americas does not suggest a correlation between spirituality and minimality, talk less poverty, although that is a complex subject not easily summed up.
As for those in the secular world getting Nobel Prizes, Soyinka was paid for his work through grants, academic salaries, lecture fees etc while we know how J.K. Rowling became the world's first billionaire author on the basis of books representing a magical culture similar to ofo.
Those are the issues I see as clear cut in your submission.
I'm not able to understand where humility comes into the equation.
Spirituality grows through innovation.
You need the self confidence to cultivate and project your innovation or you will be cheating yourself and the world.
Will people not innovate because they want to be humble?
On the subject of silence, OAA and yourself, for the first time in my experience on this group, have taken pains to share their views on Yoruba origin spiritualities, in response to inadequacies they see themselves as perceiving in Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju's perpetual sharing of his own views on that and other subjects.
Is the world not enriched thereby?
Is everyone not better informed for such sharing- your multicultural perspectives and the Orisa/Ifa/Yoruba centric views of OAA, all inimitably expressed?
Social media writing is enabled by the ease of use and informality of the medium, both workshop and publishing platform.
Great thanks
Toyin
On Sun, Dec 13, 2020, 12:24 Dr BioDun J Ogundayo <akande1098@gmail.com> wrote:
Quick answers, and I return to my quotidian miseries...1. I am not critique-ing, but gently admonishing against the seduction of self-righteousness, self-aggrandizement, etc...Especially since the Verb (Ofo) is no one's personal, intellectual/material domain. Sociologically, it is informative that intellectual property and copyright seem to be uniquely products of western, materialist/property owning/individualist mentalities...????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????By the way, would there be a correlation between the West's conquest, subjugation and domination of Africa and emerging forms of capitalism, as implied in the codification of property rights? I don't know o.????????????????????????????????????????????????????)?????2. It is not about monetizing, or materially enriching oneself. Indeed, in all societies, devotees, agents, and masters and guardians of the VERB are often materially bereft. How many life changing, life affirming/destroying writers, thinkers, acolytes of the Verb have ever been materially/financially wealthy, or bountiful? It is no coincidence that Yoruba Iyalawo, and Babalawo take the oath of poverty (the inimitable Wande Abimbola and wiser minds, please teach me!) at the end of their initiation to benefit humanity and community with wisdom acquired. They also are not self-seeking. The recognition, Nobel prize, adulation, etc.. accorded them is just society's way of acknowledging the power of the Verb.3. From Japanese calligraphy, to Chinese Shaolin monks, to Tibetan lamaseries, to Rabbis ergotating, and Kabbalists (at the Wailing Wall)until Madonna bastardized the Kabbalah, to Sufi dervishes of Turkey, to the griots of the Sahel, to the gnawa practitioners of Imazhigen, to Yoruba devotees of Ifa/Orunmila, to the Okyeame of Asantene, there is an abiding HUMILITY vis-à-vis Ofo.4. This borne of the recognition of universal, transcendent, eternal, metaphysical essence of the Verb/Ofo. It is not property to be appropriated, expropriated, misappropriated for ego gratification. In the world of lit-crit polyphony is yet another iteration of the versatility of Ofo. Bakhtin, with his dialogism, would remind us of the fallacy of the perfect monologue....Camara Laye's Maitre de la Parole, Ifa's Ejiogbe, etc all point to the nexus between knowledge, wisdom, and yes, OFO, or the Verb as voice, action, a bringing forth into manifestation, theurgy... In these specific examples, HUMILITY is key. Same thing in alchemy. Of the 7 gifts of the Holy Spirit, the last is NOT the least: it fear of the Lord (or Verb, or OFO).5. Jesus, physically gone for millennia, still manifests today for most as the ultimate OFO-Verb made human and divine at the same time. BTW he left not a single written text. Buddha, same story. Mohammed, PBUH, same story. Buddha's story seems to make my point. He went from immense material wealth to immense and abject material poverty, chanting Ofo to reach elightenment.6. Finally, I chose esoterism, not esotericism, for reasons obvious for those in the know.7. I return to silence on this matter.'BioDun--On Sat, Dec 12, 2020 at 08:12 Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju <toyin.adepoju@gmail.com> wrote:To clarify-
I see Ogundayo's summation as a critique of my position, giving much food for thought but which ironically only that looks to me as an effective means of reinforcing that position, from both a marketing angle and a philosophical angle.marketing- this is the established view, but im here to show you how to go beyond it.philosophical-what is the ultimate core of awo, the esoteric, as understood in Yoruba/Orisa cosmology, in my view, in relation to global esotericisms?
is it information that fellow humans are capable of keeping secret or the inability of humans, due to their inadequacy of their faculties, to penetrate the secrets of nature?
how do these two-social esotericism- human withholding of infoandepistemic esotericism-nature's secrets inaccessible on account of human limitations and nature depthsas i characterize these two forms of the esoteric, derived from a study of awo,how do they intersect?at what points may the esoteric be accessed without the aid of traditional gatekeepers and info managers?thankstoyinOn Sat, 12 Dec 2020 at 08:51, Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju <toyin.adepoju@gmail.com> wrote:Superb from Ogundayo.
It fits my project very well.
Beyond fair use quotation, I wish I could represent the entire piece, even if to advance an argument that builds on it in order to contradict it.
I would like to know, through this chat or private email, if I can use it in full, since I'll be using it in a commercial product.I might not be able to give an adequate response now, but i'll do that later.Great thankstoyinOn Sat, 12 Dec 2020 at 03:58, Dr BioDun J Ogundayo <akande1098@gmail.com> wrote:Esteemed participants,Silence is truly golden. I have "lurked" on this forum as many great minds have enlightened us. Especially about the intellectual and spiritual hubris garbed (or garbled!!) in the obvious robes of semantics, sophistry, and euphemisms, designed to bedazzle and bamboozle! In the manner of the deconstructionists and Derrida acolytes...I am moved to state this. Words have power. Words are power. For the users of words to have the power of Ofo, they must be neophytes, initiates, and adepts at making the VERB work in specific and appropriate circumstances for specific and appropriate purposes. They must demonstrate not only knowledge of terms, but the humility to say them right, not necessarily correctly.Ofo also includes silence, or the ability to listen to the elements before acting.Implicitly, esoterism is the defining and definitive nature of Ofo. I am not an Ifa initiate, but there is a whole odu on Oro as spirit. But as a student of language and translator,I know that the right word, pronounced with the right attitude, the right tone, at the right moment, begets the right result.Even in our jaded, profane, banal, and quotidian drudgery, how we communicate involves some measure of esoterism, whereby the speaker and the hearer are in a complicit, knowing,"insider" relationship exclusive of all others... Consider the following and the obvious:1. Passwords and your computer. We all know how deathly frustrating it must be being unable to gain access to the computer/internet/social media/email... if you miss just one character, the ofo has no potency because it has been denatured...2. PIN numbers (pardon the redundancy): Forget the sequence of numbers, mix up the numbers, and you don't get to pay the bill, or get desperately needed cash from the damn ATM!3. Diagnosis: Knowledge derived from you and your doctor (a profanely esoteric relationship in a culture obsessed with privacy). If you will not, do not, or cannot say what is the matter with you, the doctor with all his knowledge and expertise cannot proceed with a treatment. DIA-GNOSIS wisdom emerging from a dialogue between 2 insiders!4. Yoruba say "bi owe, bi owe..." You have to be an ologbon, an onmoran, (an insider) to be able to participate in community of wordsmiths. Again esoterism (of OFO).5. In one of the Harry Potter series, it would take Hermione's saying "Levy..Oosa!" the right way for the feather to lift up from the dining table and float away, after several futile attempts by the boys around her. Again and again esoterism of the spoken word( Ofo in Yoruba esoteric practice).6. Poets are adepts of the esoterism of the Verb in any culture--the griots, the bards, Plato's poets, cantors, preachers, (even charismatic politicians) are all practitioners of OFO in its countless iterations.7. In Catholic tradition and mass, even man has to ask God to say the word "and my soul shall be healed" the ultimate step before the body of Christ is consumed and the union of man and the divine is consummated. Esoterism of Ofo at its most fundamentally religious form.8. In Judeo-Christian tradition and mythology the world and we became through OFO. God spoke, uttered the Fiat Luxe, and the universe happened.9. Allah commanded Mohammed, PBUH, an illiterate to recite and a whole new spirituality and theology (Qur'an) came forth.Silence is GOLDEN. So is OFO. Don't trifle with OFO, or you will be consumed by its flames and power!'BioDunOn Fri, Dec 11, 2020 at 10:08 AM OLAYINKA AGBETUYI <yagbetuyi@hotmail.com> wrote:--
This is a misrepresentation of what Ofo as a cosmic force is about.
I remember when I had a tutorial with my HOD the late Oyin Ogunba on the use of Ofo..
He told me he had been invited to demonstrations of the magical efficacy of Ofo and that at the last moment the organisers prevaricated. He said he did not have any evidence of the magical efficacy of Ofo.
I reminded him that he was a ' foreigner' among the practitioners and they would be reluctant to share their secrets with him, like they would not with a westerner knowing he would encourage broadcasting it for gains without a return to the owners of the 'patent' ( I could not believe this came from an Ìjębú professor who were reputed among the Yoruba for their especial proficiency in the magical arts. I thought he was only telling me what western education allowed him to divulge and not what he actually believed. The Awo whom I consulted within the same period for effective remedy which I narrated here was actually in Ìjębú land.)
I reminded him that the verbal arts which he wanted to treat merely as literature has an esoteric side involving actual psysical potencies. He merely chuckled in his characteristic style.
What Toyin Adepoju seems to be misrepresenting falls along the same pathway: that the words alone will produce magical power. I do not believe this is possible.
How is Toyin Adepoju going to use the literary power of words to change the life of participants in a seminar? The Awo I consulted did not just heal me with the power of words contained in the Ęsę Ifá he chanted. He handed me a bottle containing herbs and tree bark in solution which actually did the healing.
An etymology of Awo comes in handy here. It means a covenant not to divulge the workings and formula of the products of a particular guild and therefore represents humanity's first attempt to evolve a copyright and patent system before western modernity. It was primarily evolved to prevent abuse by the laity and protect the earnings of members from activities of fakes.
What Adepoju is misrepresenting is what psychoanalysis describes as the fallacy of the omnipotence of thought. The literary effects of words cannot procure the remedy which Adepoju is using this forum to falsely disseminate.
Oyin Ogunba never told me that the literary effects of words can achieve the transformation in the problems in the lives of anybody. He never advocated that people should be taught how to construct Ofo so that it can provide a remedy for human problems..
Adepoju has gone a step further as usual in presenting himself as an expert in what he does not fully understand in order to make a fast buck.
The proposed seminar is therefore sham and a money making gimmick.
If he wants to teach literature and literary analysis of Ofo as Oyin Ogunba did then that is a straightforward issue. But he does not belong to any guild that knows the full circumstances of producing either Ìjálá or Ofò.
OAA
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------From: Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju <toyin.adepoju@gmail.com>Date: 11/12/2020 10:28 (GMT+00:00)To: usaafricadialogue <USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com>, Yoruba Affairs <yorubaaffairs@googlegroups.com>, wolesoyinkasociety@yahoogroups.com, Bring Your Baseball Bat <naijaobserver@yahoogroups.com>Subject: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Understanding and Shaping Life throughStudying and Creating Yoruba Poetry of Laughter, Delight and Wonder
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1. Mobilize Cosmic Force in Nature to Empower Your Life and Pursue Your Goals through Ofo, Yoruba Poetry of Incantations--
Would you like to learn to use affirmations that draw on the cosmic force that pervades nature in energizing your life and pursuing your goals?
Masters of verbal art among the Yoruba of West Africa developed powerful systems for this purpose, ancient methods this course will teach you how to understand and use.
Mobilizing patterns in nature through powerful imagery, they directed ase, creative, cosmic force, for the achievement of specific goals.
You can do the same too, with the guidance of this course.
The course will be taught in English.
2. Studying and Creating Ese Ifa, Literature of Laughter and Worship, Adventure and Delight
Some people, somewhere, laugh at their gods.
Yet they worship them.
No humans, no gods, they say.
Earth existed before the gods, they assert.
In this world, no one fights to defend any god or belief.
The sheer beauty of the celebration of nature in this world, the delightful variety in their depictions of the divine, funny and sublime, are glorious.
This is the world of ese ifa, one of the world's great bodies of literature.
It comes from the Yoruba people of West Africa.
Encounter this ancient and magnificent tradition and learn how to create such literature as those inspired masters.
No literary background is required.
The course shall be taught in English.
3.Forest as Cosmos
Learning from and Constructing Ijala, Yoruba Poetry of Hunters
Poised to bring down the magnificent beast, I yet marvelled at it's amazing grace within such brute power.
Hidden in the forest, lying flat with my gun pointing at at the baboon, I seemed to be doing him homage.
Is the life of a hunter a life for a thinking man?
This is a description from "Salute to the Baboon," a poem of Ijala, poetry of hunters from the Yoruba of West Africa, with a reflection on it's implications.
Wole Soyinka describes Ijala as celebrating the deity Ogun, as well as "animal and plant life, the relationships of growing things and the insights of man into the secrets of the universe.'
Abiola Irele depicts Ijala as expressing the world of the hunter seen as a navigation of the forest, peopled by animal and spirit powers, reflecting the variety and complexity of the cosmos.
Learn how to draw upon such rich insights, ancient yet ever fresh, in an increasingly complex world, as the world of work replaces the forest, the daily commute the navigations of the hunter, lockdown isolation replaces his long hours waiting for animals to appear.
You will learn how to understand this art and use it in making sense of your life, shaping it's meaning and outcomes.
The seminar will be conducted in English.
All interested parties may contact me for directions at to how to take advantage of these courses.
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There is no fear, but joy. Excellence is Virtue.
'BioDun J. Ogundayo, PhDArokesagun----
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BioDun J. Ogundayo , PhD. Arokesagun--
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