Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Beyond Armchair talk........Understanding the dynamics and context of the Afghan mess: The people of Afghanistan are paying the price for the hatred and regrets of one man

dear oaa

there were other attacks by muslim militants prior to 9/11. an earlier attempt to blow up one of the towers, from the basement, that failed. an attack on an american warship off of yemen. there was also a heightened rhetoric of al qaeda calling for attacks, and those attacks vilified the u.s. but also the saudi royal govt. and of course there was iran and its rhetoric of the great satan. and saddam hussein's enmity had become heightened thanks to bush the father.

9/11 wasn't the beginning of the conflict, but it brought it home to the u.s. which felt invulnerable.

i am answering your points below because i didn't spell this out before, though i thought it was obvious.

we attacked afghanistan in order to get at al qaeda and to kill  osama bin laden--in revenge for 9/11. but the larger goal of the hawks was to establish more dominance and control in the middle east, the real goal, which was revealed by bush's turning his crusade to iraq, and his belabored efforts to justify it with a series of lies about nuclear threats, etc. it was transparent, and everyone could see it, unless they didn't care. most americans didn't care and barely heard of saddam hussein, so bush had to mobilize them with the lies and propaganda.

it is probably a mistake to predict the future for afghanistan, or ethiopia, or the congo, or the u.s.a.  i can't predict my own future for tomorrow. can you?

nothing precludes the taliban from reasserting sharia law in whatever form they please. they won the war.

the only point you make that i would choose to dispute is your description of previous taliban rule as "primitive."

ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

harrow@msu.edu

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From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Oluwatoyin Adepoju <ovdepoju@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2021 5:41 PM
To: usaafricadialogue <USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Beyond Armchair talk........Understanding the dynamics and context of the Afghan mess: The people of Afghanistan are paying the price for the hatred and regrets of one man

 

How could the US  Afghan effort "stamp out Muslim opposition that coalesced round 9/11"?

I'm trying to understand the logic represented by that statement.

Afghanistan is only one Muslim country.

Did the US need to attack Afghanistan in order to attack Iraq?

The first Iraq war did not involve an attack on Afghanistan, did it?

Was the search for Bin Laden not part of the reason for the US presence in Afghanistan?

Whatever may have been the full scope of the motives of the US in Afghanistan, the liberal society they were central to enabling and the democratic culture they helped nurture, even if inadequately, means that the country is not likely to be able to return for long, if at all, to it's  previous era of primitive Taliban rulership.

Even Taliban seem to have realised this, as evident from their efforts to present themselves as reformed as they seek international recognition.

Thanks

Toyin

On Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 21:55 Harrow, Kenneth <harrow@msu.edu> wrote:

i don't want to get into a whole thing here, but to be precise the u.s. did not go into afghanistan to install democracy, or to free its women. those were the excuses.

they went to stamp out muslim opposition that coalesced around 9/11. people here were outraged, bush helped whip up more outrage, and used his wife to call on the women's issue.

so why did we go to conquer a country, and not simply take revenge? the answer is really obvious. we took on afghanistan to enable our country to overthrow the govt in iraq, and the reasons for that have to do with american and western hegemony in the oil producing region. we joined forces with the saudis and uae etc, to manage the flow of oil to our benefit.

i'm no specialist. it is obvious to anyone.

ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

harrow@msu.edu

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From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Oluwatoyin Adepoju <ovdepoju@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2021 1:48 PM
To: usaafricadialogue <USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Beyond Armchair talk........Understanding the dynamics and context of the Afghan mess: The people of Afghanistan are paying the price for the hatred and regrets of one man

 

I wonder if anyone is to blame.

Should the US not have gone to Afghanistan to dislodge Bin Laden?

Should the US have left the Taliban in power after the US is described as smoking him out of there?

Won't the long US presence and the attempt at democracy they sustained make it hard for the Taluban to maintain power if their rule does not try to provide a significant degree of the freedoms represented by US presence?

I get the impression that Afghanistan's future has been empowered by the US, making a return to the earlier primitivity of the Taliban difficult to sustain or even impossible.

Quality of life is likely to be seen by Afghans as superior to human stunting Islamic policies from a sect that represents only one kind of approach to Islam.

Thanks

Toyin 

On Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 15:44 msjoe21st via USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> wrote:

There is no shortage of recrimination, which is  only rivaled by  playing on the  ignorance of the public by pundits and press alike. It is good to read from those who go beyond the shallow banters, histrionics and hysteria.

https://news.yahoo.com/people-afghanistan-paying-price-hatred-120937862.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall

Note: Zalmay Khalilzad,  featured prominently in this report, born and raised in Kabul, Afghanistan, served  as US Ambassador to the UN, Afghanistan and Iran (under George Bush). Reportedly considered for the post of Secretary of State by Trump, he was appointed US Special Envoy to Afghanistan reconciliation at the State Department, and Biden retained him in the position. Khalilzad is an ethnic Pashtun.

"The people of Afghanistan are paying the price for the hatred and regrets of a man who became a US citizen years ago but who, in his soul and heart, continues to harbour the dream of becoming the president of Afghanistan. In the run-up to both the 2009 and 2014 elections, Khalilzad attempted to get support from the influential elders of Afghanistan to back his candidacy for presidency but he got nowhere." Camelia Entekhabifard , editor-in-chief of The Independent Persian

Note: The former Afghan President  Ashraf Ghani, born in Afghanistan, an ethnic Pashtun, who fled was also an American citizen. He is considered an expert on "failed states." He authored a book or books to that end. This is what  is called: the point is academic. 

The Taliban is not a monolithic force but overwhelmingly Pashtun.

How any foreign system  think it understood the Afghans, intrigues and all, to remake them in the image of America, is another wonder. 

 China and Russia abstain from the UN vote on "safe harbor." 

MsJoe.

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